Pinnacle NTSB Update

[PCL_128]

Then why are they allowed to fly airplanes? I'd say 90% of our folks were the opposite. Perhaps the PFT culture breeds that level of indifference to quality in many who join the organization.

Why are they allowed to fly airplanes? Because a lot of the check airmen let stuff slide. I had two IOE captains when I started at PCL. The first was a really nice guy, but I learned practically nothing from him. He was sloppy and never flew profiles. He implied that some of the SOPs were unimportant. The second captain was one of the best I've ever flown with. He's not a very popular guy, but he's one of the most knowledgeable pilots I've flown with. He taught me a lot about the airplane. The problem is that most of the check airmen are more like the first guy, and there's very few like the second guy. These are the check airmen that are signing off the 90% of the pilots that can't answer basic questions for the NTSB. That is the root of the problem.

If it's PFT that breeds this culture, as you assert, then I guess Comair, XJet, ASA, etc... all have the same unsafe culture. They were the original PFT airlines, not Pinnacle and Gulfstream. You'll also find that all of the majors have hundreds of former PFTers working for them. The same low standards don't apply there however. PFT isn't the problem here. It is much deeper than that.

Maybe the company bears some blame here for incomplete training, but where is the initiative to learn on your own? Missing, apparently.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, most of the pilots think that the FOM and FCOM are only books to read right before they go back to recurrent. They ignore them the other 11 months out of the year. For that, the pilot are responsible and not management. However, that doesn't relieve management of the responsibility to provide an adequate training program. Both parties are responsible for safety.

 

[SkywayFO]

Someone may have mentioned this already, I didn't read all the post. I agree that IAS is very sensitive in the RJ. Put VS can bit ya if you don't keep an eye on the thing. I always used Pitch mode. It too was over sensitive. So I would use vs to change pitch and then go back to pitch. It all goes back to pitch and power. At 2.5 degrees and climb power the CRJ shouldn't stall. If you check the chart and you can make it to 410 at your weight. 2.5 will keep you safe. And for us lazy pilots it it keeps your hands free to turn he pages of the paper.

 

[patq1]

Someone may have mentioned this already, I didn't read all the post. I agree that IAS is very sensitive in the RJ. Put VS can bit ya if you don't keep an eye on the thing. I always used Pitch mode. It too was over sensitive. So I would use vs to change pitch and then go back to pitch. It all goes back to pitch and power. At 2.5 degrees and climb power the CRJ shouldn't stall. If you check the chart and you can make it to 410 at your weight. 2.5 will keep you safe. And for us lazy pilots it it keeps your hands free to turn he pages of the paper.

What the hell is the matter with you people?

"if you don't keep an eye on the thing"

The autopilot is not there so you don't have to do anything. You still have to fly the airplane whether the autopilot is engaged or not. You may be kidding(at least I hope so), but from some of the responses here there are a lot of people that don't pay attention. The only way to idiot proof the airplane is to remove the idiots from the cockpit and replace them with competent pilots. This whole thread is just unbelieveable.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

REZ concedes!!

Someone may have mentioned this already, I didn't read all the post. I agree that IAS is very sensitive in the RJ. Put VS can bit ya if you don't keep an eye on the thing. I always used Pitch mode. It too was over sensitive. So I would use vs to change pitch and then go back to pitch. It all goes back to pitch and power. At 2.5 degrees and climb power the CRJ shouldn't stall. If you check the chart and you can make it to 410 at your weight. 2.5 will keep you safe. And for us lazy pilots it it keeps your hands free to turn he pages of the paper.

Thanks to my fellow pilots who pointed out my misinformation. Like John Kerry, I want don't turn this into an ego contest, but rather learn something and get us pilots unified...

The above quote was what I was thinking...in addition, like most professional pilots I used my personal library (that I paid for with my own money and use on my own time) and referenced the CRJ FCOM, PRM, Aerodynamics for NA, Fly the Wing and called a fellow pilot who was a checkairman in the jet.

The causal reference to reading the newspaper or doing a monthly bid was taken too seriously but rather meant that if one did get distracted say a QRH procedure, or single pilot on 02... It is hard to convey tone and meaning on message boards....

Thanks for the academic refresher. I can asure I can operate the aircraft properly even though I can't communicate it well.

Now, lets get on to my favorite subject.... The Professional Pilot.

Pro Pilots operate at a high standard, but they are not perfect.

When your fellow pilot makes a mistake or is misinformed you don't keep him down and turn into something it is not. You politely show the way to self correction...

I question the professionalism of the pilots on this thread that turned this into a PFT discussion and tried to dumb down the airline pilots we fly with. You don't shun, discard and discredit. That shows more about you.....

The military takes over a year to train thier pilots. Money is not an object.

The regionals operate on a tight budget. The training is FAA approved. PFT has nothing to do with it....

It is what it is....but we stick together regardless

God Bless and donate....

 

[Rogue5]

You still have to fly the airplane whether the autopilot is engaged or not.

One of the most common things I hear here and in the cockpit is that we do this because we couldn't stand the 9 to 5 gig, sitting mindless in traffic, staring at the computer all day. If you call for the autopilot and sit back completely out to lunch, that is exactly what you have: you have turned flying an airplane into a mindless routine of watching the computer do your work. Boring at best, deadly at times.

Is this why you became a pilot?

 

[Huck]

Rogue's right.

I flew the MD11 before I got on the 727 and now the DC10. Most guys I fly with potty-mouth the MD11 - they say, "Man I like hand-flying too much to bid that electric jet." Then I watch them leave George on until 500' on final.

Those hand-flying tools may still be in your toolbox, but you have to take them out and sharpen them often. A fact which is becoming pointedly obvious at FDX.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

What antics are you refering to?

The ones where you set IAS or FLC mode , whip out the USA Today, and giggle as the shaker goes off?....gee thats really funny!!

or maybe hold it off the runway until the shaker goes off to get a "smooth landing"?

Nobody at the corporation I fly at would ever dream of doing this type of bull$hit - and YES, would surely get rightfully fired if it ever happened.

but $hit, I guess you get what you pay for , eh?



This thread is not about comparing regional pilots to corp pilots or major pilots - its about retards who have no place flying pax in a jet!!

Gulfstream,

Every sector of flying has its share of moron pilots or companies with shady backgrounds/poor training, etc. To claim that it is only the "regional" sector is naive in my opinion. I have friends that fly corporate and charter and some of the stories I hear from them astound me. Interesting personalities, habits, lack of training or lack of good training, etc.

For example, let's take a good friend of mine (I instructed her a little for her commercial single-engine certificate) who is 20. She has a commercial multi/single and about 350 hours total time with about 20 hours of multi time (or less). She happens to also be 5'11, thin, blonde, and an ex-model. She was hired by a fairly large charter company flying Lears. She is now flying the line for them having completed only their in-house training, which was a ground school and a few dead legs, etc. They do NOT use FSI, Simulflite, etc. I am very proud of her and happy for her but I also have some reservations about her experience and training in that airplane at that outfit. Now if i was a rock star, banker, CEO, fill in the blank rich person...would I want to spend $2000-3000/hour to have her flying me/my family/clients in the right seat? Who is in the left seat?

-Neal

 

[CarjCapt]

My take

How about this: Pay attention and just fly the aircraft.

 

[UPSer]

For example, let's take a good friend of mine (I instructed her a little for her commercial single-engine certificate) who is 20. She has a commercial multi/single and about 350 hours total time with about 20 hours of multi time (or less). She happens to also be 5'11, thin, blonde, and an ex-model. She was hired by a fairly large charter company flying Lears. She is now flying the line for them having completed only their in-house training, which was a ground school and a few dead legs, etc. They do NOT use FSI, Simulflite, etc. I am very proud of her and happy for her but I also have some reservations about her experience and training in that airplane at that outfit. Now if i was a rock star, banker, CEO, fill in the blank rich person...would I want to spend $2000-3000/hour to have her flying me/my family/clients in the right seat? Who is in the left seat?

-Neal

Neal, are you referring to PlaneHPN?

 

[Ty Webb]

Typical jet management company B.S. Charge 'em for the best, and give them the least.

I flew for one of those "outfits" about 7 years ago. They actually used to tell the customers that they "could provide better training in the airplane using our own people than is available in the simulator". Believe it or not, the customers actually bought this, while the owner pockets the money that would have gone to training.

I also flew for a couple of good Jet Management companies, including TAG, that insisted both crewmembers be typed, go to sim-based training every six months, and had a CD-based continuing education curriculum throughout the year that focused on Aerodynamics, meteorology, regs, etc.

Hard to believe that some places are still getting by with the company-trained radio and flap operator in the right seat.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal, are you referring to PlaneHPN?

Of course not. Bruce is a heavily LD man in his early 50's.

This particular friend of mine is not in NY.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Typical jet management company B.S. Charge 'em for the best, and give them the least.

I flew for one of those "outfits" about 7 years ago. They actually used to tell the customers that they "could provide better training in the airplane using our own people than is available in the simulator". Believe it or not, the customers actually bought this, while the owner pockets the money that would have gone to training.

I also flew for a couple of good Jet Management companies, including TAG, that insisted both crewmembers be typed, go to sim-based training every six months, and had a CD-based continuing education curriculum throughout the year that focused on Aerodynamics, meteorology, regs, etc.

Hard to believe that some places are still getting by with the company-trained radio and flap operator in the right seat.

Exactly my point. This operation that I spoke of does not seem to be like a TAG (I have a friend who flies for them out of HPN as well...much different story). This particular operator has an ARG/US shield on their web-site but I don't know what that means. This particular operation clearly wants a radio/flap/gear operator.

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Gulfstream,

Every sector of flying has its share of moron pilots or companies with shady backgrounds/poor training, etc. To claim that it is only the "regional" sector is naive in my opinion. I have friends that fly corporate and charter and some of the stories I hear from them astound me. Interesting personalities, habits, lack of training or lack of good training, etc.

For example, let's take a good friend of mine (I instructed her a little for her commercial single-engine certificate) who is 20. She has a commercial multi/single and about 350 hours total time with about 20 hours of multi time (or less). She happens to also be 5'11, thin, blonde, and an ex-model. She was hired by a fairly large charter company flying Lears. She is now flying the line for them having completed only their in-house training, which was a ground school and a few dead legs, etc. They do NOT use FSI, Simulflite, etc. I am very proud of her and happy for her but I also have some reservations about her experience and training in that airplane at that outfit. Now if i was a rock star, banker, CEO, fill in the blank rich person...would I want to spend $2000-3000/hour to have her flying me/my family/clients in the right seat? Who is in the left seat?

-Neal

Neal. I agree 100%. I never said this was a regional airline problem ony.

All I said is you get what you pay for....at any level, any business. Most denying this fact are usually at the lower end.

 

[100LL... Again!]

If PCL128's assessment is correct, and I have no doubt it is, watch out when the majority of these people upgrade.


It truly is the 121 system, and the advancement in aircraft that is keeping many of these people from taking the dirt nap.

Hopefully, the FAA will find out a lot of this stuff during the investigation.
Hopefully heads will roll. Hopefully the upgrade bust rate will go way up.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

If PCL128's assessment is correct, and I have no doubt it is, watch out when the majority of these people upgrade.


It truly is the 121 system, and the advancement in aircraft that is keeping many of these people from taking the dirt nap.

Hopefully, the FAA will find out a lot of this stuff during the investigation.
Hopefully heads will roll. Hopefully the upgrade bust rate will go way up.

They will find this stuff out. But the FAA is here to protect the airlines, and bust the pilots. Nothing changes, only the names.