Pinnacle NTSB Update

[CatYaaak]

Ty,
...The comments in this thread about how "easy" it is for this airplane to go to FL410 and why it should be able to do so because it is "certified" to that altitude, clearly reflect that there is little understanding of the principles involved, the resulting limitations or the potential consequences.

[/i][/right]

The lack of understanding is blatantly obvious, but the lack healthy respect displayed in too many posts for flight at the edge of an aircraft's perf envelope in the most unforcastable, dynamic, and unforgiving regime of flight is truly scary. Poor technique or a few moments of inattention to changing outside conditions can put you in the world of hurt in a hurry. NObody is paying you to be in that situation...in fact we're paid to avoid it. There is NO excuse for inadvertenly stalling a perfectly good aircraft at this stage of the game.

And anyone who thinks a CRJ climbs "easily" to FL 410 has serious problems recognizing poor performance.

 

[TIS]

As I tried to point out there are other airplanes and other manufacturers with similar problems. Boeing is one of them.

Well, actually, you completely missed MY point - I think. My point was and remains that ALL manufacturers failed to disclose this stuff about their products because they never really considered that anyone would attmept to wag ANY of the flight controls - not simply the rudder- in this way.

The fact is that the FAA never considered it either or there WOULD have been language in the certification criteria that spelled out what the engineering needed to guarantee. Neither part 23 nor Part 25 is specific enough to gleen what we now know is the case - that the engineering gurantees no possibility of failure as long as the control is only deflected in ONE direction - ONCE.

It's not a matter, as you say, of a company coming clean. There was just never any realization that something needed to be said in the first place. This accident got everyone giving lengthy lectures on the subject.

TIS

 

[100LL... Again!]

Not referering to the AA pilot. I think he's basically a scapegoat for airbus.

Anyway, I'm talking about the PFT MENTALITY, if not PFT itself, and the general lack of skill, motivation, talent, and professionalism exhibited by a significant percentage of pilots.

Starting with ones that do not understand their autopilots and the function of the modes.

 

[blade230]

100LL...Again,


You are a real piece of work, and I mean that in the worst, most demeaning way. Myself, and many other "profesional" pilots I know, believe your type of personality are what make this career as negative and un-enjoyable as it is sometimes. You are far below any PFTers in my book.

Signed someone else who did not pay Gulfstream any money.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I'm no fun to fly with, that's for sure!

But: I'd rather be an a$$hole than an incompetent. Like so MANY PFTers are!

 

[enigma]

TIS, Surplus1, Ty Webb, et al. Can we agree that setting up a sim scenario that demonstrates the end result of jet upset might be benificial? I doubt that a simulator can properly simulate a true stall event, but it should be possible to develop a scenario that comes close. Just think about how the accident that got this discussion going might have looked.
I don't know the CRJ, but I'll assume that they started getting some sort of stall indication, then numerous lights/bells/whistles as the engines spooled down. The aircraft might well have gotten into an unusual attitude at about this point. I think that it might be constructive to put people into a sim and let them see what happened to these two pilots. NOT to show that it can be recoverable, but to show how disorienting that it must be; and to develop an awareness of the end result of inattention to high altitude climb performance limitations etc.

Let me use the altitude chamber as an example. I'd spent many hours at FL450 before I made a training trip to the altitude chamber. I'd read the books, and heard stories about loss of cabin pressure, but I'd never experienced the result for myself. Then I was forunate enough to get high altitude ops included in my Simuflite recurrent. After seeing the results of hypoxia, you can bet that I made sure the O2 mask was tested, the bottle was turned on, and the hose wasn't buried under a pile of books etc. After experiencing the altitude chamber, I had a much healthier respect for the inherent danger associated with sustaining human life at FL450. Prior to the chamber, my intellect knew that high altitude ops could be dangerous; after the chamber, my GUT understood that I could DIE.

It would be nice if a "do this and DIE" scenario could be included in sim training. And not only for newbie RJ pilots, let's do it for us all.

regards,
enigma

 

[MECH]

You can give the SIM better data to dempnstrate what the a/c will do at high altitude.

Our company did not like the data that embrear had provided for the certification of the EMB-145 sims. They went and flew our a/c at different altitudes and ATTITUDES. If you fly the company sim then the flight safety sim you will see they respond different in various unusual attitudes. The biggest difference is a full stall. Our sim will break hard to the left. Flight safety's sim will just mush out.
The difference is that with the stick pusher the FAA thinks the a/c will never fully stall. Our training dept. thought differently.
I do think that every pilot should experience a full stall in the sim. The 145 can be recovered in about 1000 feet if the stall happens below FL180. Up at FL370 it takes about 6000 feet to get it back. We had a few extra minutes after a PC. I wish it were part of training.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm no fun to fly with, that's for sure!

But: I'd rather be an a$$hole than an incompetent. Like so MANY PFTers are!

WOW. A real asset to the industry. We will all have to take for granted that you are competent. Why? Cause you say so!

Do you have the ability to be compentent and score a positive reading on the social scale?

 

[100LL... Again!]

I don't converse when I fly. That way I don't have to listen to the idiocy of others. Nor do they need to be intimidated by my intelligence or vocabulary.

I personally don't care if you think or know whether am competent or not. I know I'm good. Most good pilots do. If you are good at your job, you know it as well. Why would you care what others think?

Here's how to tell if someone really knows if they are good:

Accuse them of sucking. If they get all defensive, they probably DO suck. If they chuckle quietly, either they are agreeing (unlikely) or they probably don't suck.

Ha, I say!

 

[405]

100LL,

I hope you're joking about your attitude.

FN, is this better? I wouldn't want to make anyone angry here.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I know I'm good.

100,

You know what they say about pilots that tell you how good they are don't you?

 

[FN FAL]

100LL, you scare me. I'm not even a pilot but you make me want to puke with your arrogance.

I hope you're joking about your attitude.

What is "even a pilot"? And what does not being one entail?

 

[405]

.....

 

[jbDC9]

I don't converse when I fly. That way I don't have to listen to the idiocy of others. Nor do they need to be intimidated by my intelligence or vocabulary.

Are you serious or just yanking our chains? If you're serious... wow, how do you fit that gigantic ego through the cockpit door? And, if you're serious, you must be one of the world's biggest pricks to fly with...

 

[CarjCapt]

I don't converse when I fly. That way I don't have to listen to the idiocy of others. Nor do they need to be intimidated by my intelligence or vocabulary.

You know a good dose of CRM would do you some good. In those days when F0s could put who they didn't want to fly with on their bid you would be first on the list.

You might consider changing your ways because when you need two people in the cockpit there will only be one, you.

PS: Your vocabulary and intelligence speaks for itself.