Pinnacle NTSB Update

[enigma]

That is where being a pilot with training comes in handy.

no s@#$

If you can't do at least 250kts and 500fpm then you arn't going to get to your cruise altitude and you need to pick a lower one.

I used that technique when I flew Lears for a "cowboy". After I received proper training and a type in the airplane, I realized that the manufacturer had provided charts with which one could pre-determine the the proper cruise altitude. I'll grant you that I do keep up with the overall performance, and will stop the climb short of planned altitude if the performance is below par, but I don't just set a 500fpm climb and see what she'll give me. At least not anymore.

Simple as that. I don't know about other places, but this is hammered into us at ASA. You can look at the charts in the airplane, but usually there are so many other outside things that you just need to only do what the airplane is telling you it can do.

Do you realize what you just said?

Now, I'm not really trying to bust your chops, or be disagreeable, I hope that you will take this as a conversation about flying, and not about personality.

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Enigma,

Sorry if I came off as a butthead (happens often... ). Anyway, I think you will find that using VS gives you a much more stable climb. Like I have said, when you get in to chop or start having large ISA variations you'll start to see the autopilot "chase" for the selected airspeed. The result WILL BE that the pitch oscillates up and down. Just not the result people expect from a professional pilot. Likewise as I stated earlier, in some instances that I have personally witnessed when you're getting larger temp. variation during turbulent conditions the autopilot simply cannot manage it and you'll end up with airspeed variations as well. So in that case you just lost the airspeed protection. So, in my opinion climbing in FLC/IAS is not the more safe way to go and it is certainly not better in terms of aircraft control and passenger comfort.

By the way, like the other guy said... If you cannot maintain 500'/min and the min climb airspeed that just simply means that the aircraft is not capable of climbing to that altitude under those conditions...

Likewise. (about the butthead thing) I think that my problem here is that I don't realize just how crappy the CRJ autopilot must be.

I've never flown a jet that couldn't manage to maintain speed when in speed mode. Even the TRS80 era Maddog does a decent job of holding the selected IAS. Sorry to hear that you RJ guys are saddled with a sloppy autopilot. With that being the case, ya'll be careful out there ya here.

regards,
enigma

 

[NJA Capt]

We program our 900EX to climb at 300/.80. Climb in VFLC and that protects you.

Same goes for the C750, VNAV @ 300/.80-.82 works like a charm.

When I flew for Eagle, ...it was also standard to forget and open the paper and get the shaker. It was pretty funny the second time and always funny when it happened to someone else.

This scares the $@#! out of me! I'm glad you are beyond this now....but to those that are doing this now:
Get your head out of your arse and FLY THE PLANE. This isn't a video game people, put down the paper and fly. If you EVER get a shaker because of poor planning you need to be pulled off the line. If you let someone do it just to see the look on there face, you should be fired.

 

[zonker]

I think we can all agree on one thing that my CFI told me long ago...

Speed is life.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Same goes for the C750, VNAV @ 300/.80-.82 works like a charm.


This scares the $@#! out of me! I'm glad you are beyond this now....but to those that are doing this now:
Get your head out of your arse and FLY THE PLANE. This isn't a video game people, put down the paper and fly. If you EVER get a shaker because of poor planning you need to be pulled off the line. If you let someone do it just to see the look on there face, you should be fired.

I gotta agree here...
some of the things being said here are completly absurd.
Confirms my hatred of flying on Regional Jets and questioning why the pro pilots up front are making $12/hr...yup, dont worry - just break out that USA Today and let the IAS mode keep you safe...

The accident we are all replying about and the posts here are seriously eye-opening...

 

[sweptback]

I used that technique when I flew Lears for a "cowboy". After I received proper training and a type in the airplane, I realized that the manufacturer had provided charts with which one could pre-determine the the proper cruise altitude. I'll grant you that I do keep up with the overall performance, and will stop the climb short of planned altitude if the performance is below par, but I don't just set a 500fpm climb and see what she'll give me. At least not anymore.

Well, the problem is, in the CRJ, 500fpm is all you're going to get. It's a little better in the cold now, but not that much.

Everybody who I've ever flown with would always check the charts and update the cruise altitude in the FMS before climbing higher than our filed altitude. I've never flown with a person who would just dial in VS 0.5 and start climbing to see where they ended up, and if they did I wouldn't allow it. I think what he meant with the 250 kts/500 fpm bit was that after you checked the charts and FMS, and found you were able to climb, but could not hold those paramaters, then it's time to bail out. But I don't see how being such a superior pilot would allow you to forcast that ahead of time if the charts said it would work.

 

[enigma]

Well, the problem is, in the CRJ, 500fpm is all you're going to get. It's a little better in the cold now, but not that much.

Everybody who I've ever flown with would always check the charts and update the cruise altitude in the FMS before climbing higher than our filed altitude. I've never flown with a person who would just dial in VS 0.5 and start climbing to see where they ended up, and if they did I wouldn't allow it. I think what he meant with the 250 kts/500 fpm bit was that after you checked the charts and FMS, and found you were able to climb, but could not hold those paramaters, then it's time to bail out. But I don't see how being such a superior pilot would allow you to forcast that ahead of time if the charts said it would work.

never mind

 

[Crossky]

Likewise. (about the butthead thing) I think that my problem here is that I don't realize just how crappy the CRJ autopilot must be.

I've never flown a jet that couldn't manage to maintain speed when in speed mode. Even the TRS80 era Maddog does a decent job of holding the selected IAS. Sorry to hear that you RJ guys are saddled with a sloppy autopilot. With that being the case, ya'll be careful out there ya here.

regards,
enigma

The CRJ does not have a sloppy autopilot. It's much better than the MD-80's, you had to really had to learn finesse with it. I flew the 80 first and both airplanes will chase the airspeed when in climb/IAS mode, especially in the flight levels. They will maintain speed if you don't mind oscillations which can be made to be less and more comfortable for pax if you just manage speed by flying in VS mode.

Listen, it's not that hard. You have two pilots at once both trained in the aircraft flying it. Both should monitor it at all times. Climbing in VS mode is for passenger comfort and satisfaction. In all facets of training I've had - ground - sim - IOE - line - the word is to climb in VS to prevent pitch oscillations but monitor your airspeed and don't let it go below min climb speeds.

Two "professional" pilots who both make at least $12 an hour (at least for now) should be capable of this. And every FOM in the industry prohibits magazines and newpapers in the cockpit.

 

[zonker]

The CRJ does not have a sloppy autopilot. It's much better than the MD-80's, you had to really had to learn finesse with it. I flew the 80 first and both airplanes will chase the airspeed when in climb/IAS mode, especially in the flight levels. They will maintain speed if you don't mind oscillations which can be made to be less and more comfortable for pax if you just manage speed by flying in VS mode.

Listen, it's not that hard. You have two pilots at once both trained in the aircraft flying it. Both should monitor it at all times. Climbing in VS mode is for passenger comfort and satisfaction. In all facets of training I've had - ground - sim - IOE - line - the word is to climb in VS to prevent pitch oscillations but monitor your airspeed and don't let it go below min climb speeds.

Two "professional" pilots who both make at least $12 an hour (at least for now) should be capable of this. And every FOM in the industry prohibits magazines and newpapers in the cockpit.

The CRJ doesn't have a sloppy autopilot? What's up with the wing-wagging while tracking in NAV mode?

I never saw that in the -80. Listen, they all have their quirks. The 80 is a better airplane, overall.

No comparison.

 

[patq1]

Keep in mind this is a theoretical exercise and never to be tried except in a simulator. Having said that; say you have a +2.0 degree deck angle set. As you climb into less dense air your V/S will decrease until the aircraft levels off and maybe descends, eventually finding equillibrium. This is considering everything else is stable, like the air and available CLB thrust is maintained. It is in my opinion an accurate way to climb, but into the higher flight levels, V/S is better for control of the profile.

Conversely, consider setting vertical speed at 500 fpm and letting it go. As air density decreases, the airplane will CONTINUE TO PITCH UP to achieve the desired climb rate. When it runs out of energy, it will stall.

HOWEVER- The CRJ autopilot will disconnect at a predetermined AOA, coincident with the stick shaker.

Of course one should never find himself in this scenario, but for the sake of pondering the attributes of this fine aircraft....

That might be true if we were talking about a constant angle of attack but pitch mode holds a constant pitch attitude not angle of attack. However, I think we can both agree that what is really needed is for the pilots to be flying the aircraft even when the autopilot is engaged. Don't sit there and watch, or not watch as the case may be, the autopilot kill you. Anyone that gets the stick shaker deserves a beating.

pat

 

[patq1]

Well, the problem is, in the CRJ, 500fpm is all you're going to get. It's a little better in the cold now, but not that much.

I am sure you are aware that the high altitude temperatures are not necessarily colder during the winter months.

pat

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I am sure you are aware that the high altitude temperatures are not necessarily colder during the winter months.

pat

Not necessarily, but certainly closer to ISA.

 

[73belair]

no s@#$

I used that technique when I flew Lears for a "cowboy". After I received proper training and a type in the airplane, I realized that the manufacturer had provided charts with which one could pre-determine the the proper cruise altitude. I'll grant you that I do keep up with the overall performance, and will stop the climb short of planned altitude if the performance is below par, but I don't just set a 500fpm climb and see what she'll give me. At least not anymore.




Do you realize what you just said?

Now, I'm not really trying to bust your chops, or be disagreeable, I hope that you will take this as a conversation about flying, and not about personality.

regards,
enigma

No worries... I meant more that when the dispatchers enter the info into the computer (what I assume has performance #s like the books in the airplane) and come up with where they say the airplane can cruise at, it may not be true. So climing at 250 and 500fpm and you start going below 250 and are not at your planned altitude you need to pick a new lower one.

 

[49W]

When I flew for Eagle, it was standard to fly in VS but it was also standard to forget and open the paper and get the shaker. It was pretty funny the second time and always funny when it happend to someone else.

You don't need to be flying at all if you think that is funny or that is acceptable. Don't go around bragging about this. It makes you look like an incompetent idiot.

 

[surplus1]

The accident we are all replying about and the posts here are seriously eye-opening...

Regretably you couldn't be more correct. I am too amazed to comment but no longer surprised by this tragedy.