Pinnacle Lowers Upgrade Times

[norskman2]

Told the wife who wants to go to Destin to visit friends and wanted me to write her passes that no one I approved of operated it and she'd have to drive. She's pissed, but that's just too bad; I'm not taking the risk.

Your wife is right to be pissed. What risk? Name a single recent accident with passenger injuries or fatalities that can be attributed to low-time regional pilots.

You won't even fly a legacy carrier. I won't even go there....

 

[Lear70]

Your wife is right to be pissed. What risk? Name a single recent accident with passenger injuries or fatalities that can be attributed to low-time regional pilots.

Pinnacle in MKE. Several people were injured from the little exit off the controlled surface, across the median, up the embankment, airborne again at 80 kts or so, then slammed back onto the taxiway.

And why does it have to be recent? Experience has come into play in many different accidents in the last few decades. 350 hours is still 350 hours.

The wife can be as pissed as she wants. She doesn't know the industry and doesn't understand, as most passengers, what kind of experience (or lack thereof) can sometimes exist on regional airline flights.

You won't even fly a legacy carrier. I won't even go there....

Genius. Yet again on Flightinfo.

Use your head... that's what God gave it to you for.

I don't write legacy domestic passes because I can't control whether my family might end up on a regional affiliate.

I have no problem with the mainline flights, I'm boarding one in about 5 minutes commuting to work. It's the regional carriers with the hiring and, now, upgrade times that, depending on the mix of the crew, can be downright scary.

Here's a sampling:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Airline Total Time / Multi Engine
PSA commercial/multi rating
TSA 250/25
Colgan 500/80
ASA 500/50
Mesaba 600/50
Great Lakes 750/50
Piedmont 500/100
Mesa** 500/100
CommutAir 500/100
Skywest 1000/100 - not so bad
Republic 1000/100 - not so bad
Horizon 1000/100 - not so bad
American Eagle 800/100
Comair 600/100
ExpressJet 600/100
Air Wisconsin 1000/250 - not so bad
Pinnacle* 1000/200

*Pinnacle has lower minimums for graduates of specific flight schools, as low as 250 total time

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]**Mesa - Participation in the PACE program may lower published minimums.[/FONT]


No, thanks. Someone else can get on that airplane with the new-hire 250 tt pilot and newly-upgraded 2500 hour CA. NOT my wife or children, and I try to avoid them as much as possible.

With your flight time and experience (or lack thereof), I really don't expect you to understand. You lack the perspective to determine a safe, combinant level of experience in the flight deck

 

[Rook]

I upgraded with just over 3000 hours- I sure didn't feel a special power come over me when I crossed that mark.

you must've been absent that day.:nuts:

http://www.ammaletu.de/pictures/chronik/immortals/connor/1994-17.jpg

 

[norskman2]

No, thanks. Someone else can get on that airplane with the new-hire 250 tt pilot and newly-upgraded 2500 hour CA. NOT my wife or children, and I try to avoid them as much as possible.

Sending your wife and kids on a long car trip is still probably far riskier than putting them on the worst regional.

 

[PCL_128]

I actually agree with Lear, and I still work for a regional!!! When I get passes for my parents, I'm very careful about who they'll be flying on. CHQ, MAG, RPA, etc...? Nope, no way. These places have guys upgrading in less than two years. I won't even get them a pass for a PCL flight unless I personally know the crew and know them to be experienced and safe. I don't rule out all regionals, though. I've gotten them passes on ASA before, because the most junior Captain at ASA has at least 6,000 TT with 4,000 in type. Same with Mesaba. Mainline carriers? Again, no problem. But guys upgrading after less than 2 years of airline flying is simply scary. Between two airlines, I spent five years in the right seat, and I still felt inexperienced when I upgraded. These guys that want to upgrade with 2000 TT and 500 in type are delusional.

 

[Lear70]

I won't even get them a pass for a PCL flight unless I personally know the crew and know them to be experienced and safe.

When I was at PCL, I used to do the same thing. Don't have the ability to do that anymore.

I don't rule out all regionals, though. I've gotten them passes on ASA before, because the most junior Captain at ASA has at least 6,000 TT with 4,000 in type. Same with Mesaba.

Hadn't thought about that; I suppose I probably could. Something to consider if I can't get them there on the Tranny, Blue, or SWA.

Mainline carriers? Again, no problem. But guys upgrading after less than 2 years of airline flying is simply scary. Between two airlines, I spent five years in the right seat, and I still felt inexperienced when I upgraded. These guys that want to upgrade with 2000 TT and 500 in type are delusional.

There are always exceptions to the rule (which I know you meant to say 123 but forgot), but they are VERY few and VERY far between.

I'm not trying to insult anyone specifically. Norsk, you very well may be the 1% that would be OK in the right seat at 300 hours and upgrading at 2,000.

However, that's a 99% chance against. I'm a gambling man, but those odds suck.

 

[DrewBlows]

Told the wife who wants to go to Destin to visit friends and wanted me to write her passes that no one I approved of operated it and she'd have to drive. She's pissed, but that's just too bad; I'm not taking the risk.

I hope you realize the irony of this statement. Driving is, statistically, far more dangerous than flying any airline. It's not even close.

Here are some statistics. Air Carriers are near the bottom.

 

[Lear70]

I hope you realize the irony of this statement. Driving is, statistically, far more dangerous than flying any airline. It's not even close.

Here are some statistics. Air Carriers are near the bottom.

That's SOMEWHAT true, but those statistics are off for what we're discussing.

We are, after all, talking about a very small percentage of the airline industry (regionals).

Even taking that, and even taking the fact that she won't be going through any major cities and will be traveling during the day in an Audi (one of the safest vehicles on the road), statistically speaking the odds are she'd be just as safe in a PCL jet operated by the green-on-green, blind-leading-the-blind crew.

It may be an emotional choice as well as intellectual, but I'm just not putting her on that plane. For my own peace of mind as well as her safety. Most of the time she DOES fly,,, on AAI, JBLU, or SWA. On a regional with an ever-worsening safety record and continuously lowering minimums? No, thanks.

 

[BOHICAgain]

If you don't understand that, then you might want to reconsider your profession, as being an airline pilot requires better analytical skills than the paltry nitpicking you've shown here.

I understand what you are saying but I dont think there are that many 2500TT captains and 300 hour Fo's out there. That trend is now increasing due to the supposed pilot shortage. Just to say that you flat out refuse to fly anyone but those three (not including the legacy) is a bit much but if thats the way you feel thats fine.

 

[Flywrite]

That's SOMEWHAT true, but those statistics are off for what we're discussing.

We are, after all, talking about a very small percentage of the airline industry (regionals).

Even taking that, and even taking the fact that she won't be going through any major cities and will be traveling during the day in an Audi (one of the safest vehicles on the road), statistically speaking the odds are she'd be just as safe in a PCL jet operated by the green-on-green, blind-leading-the-blind crew.

I can understand having (irrational) hangups about the safety of the wife and kids, and I can understand the concerns about inexperienced crews, but it's hard to back up those hangups and concerns with the statistics you suggest. I would go out on a limb and suggest that many more people have died over the past 5-10 year in Audis, during the day, on rural roads than on Pinnacle. Throw in all the other regionals and the statistics will still likely show that an Audi during the day in the country is a riskier place to be than the back of a regional airliner with a low-time crew.

IIRC both the Mesa/Air Midwest B1900 in CLT and the Regions Air/Corpex J32 in MO were both pretty experienced crews, and in the case of the CLT crash it was a mechanical failure. That's less than 40 passenger fatalities. Any I'm missing? (I havent gone back to read the NTSB reports on those two accidents, so I may be wrong on the crew experience.)

Again, I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise...I look back on my knowledge/skill/judgement at 300-400 hours and thank He Who Watches Over FNGs that I didnt tear anything up. To imagine being in the right front seat of a 50-seat jet with that amount of experience is scary, particularly with a 2500 hour CA. It's just that you cant back up your fears and decision with statistics until (God forbid) those statistics occur.