Pinnacle Flt 3701

[jackbo]

If you pilots want to relive the past and bash Pinnacle, do a search for 3701 and read every thread that you find. There's enough of it on here to spend a night or two reading. I think it's been sufficiently covered in all of the other threads

Don't start this bullsh*t again with yet another five or ten page thread because some new PIC's light bulb suddenly came on.

wow. no one would ever guess you are a bitter person. just because you don't like being a paper pusher in the pinnacle soc doesn't mean the rest of us can't learn something still.

you wonder why pinnacle continually gets ripped on. maybe because your pilots continually do stupid, unsafe things. people don't rip on pinnacle because they get paid. they rip on pinnacle because pinnacle continues to be a shining example of a poorly run airline that allows people to do dumb things with little oversight.

go on being bitter. just don't forget to pull your head out of the sand once in a while to take a gaze at reality.

 

[viper548]

I'm curious, if Mr Cesarz had 761 TT how did he get hired by Pinnacle? Were Pinnacles minimums lower before the accident? I think Pinnacles minimums are 1000/200 now. Was Pinnacle hiring from a PFT program before the accident?

I think he PFT'd at gulfstream and they had a deal with pinnacle

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Until the mid-late 90's, United's hiring minimums were 350TT. More than a few hired with less than 1000.

 

[Lear70]

you wonder why pinnacle continually gets ripped on. maybe because your pilots continually do stupid, unsafe things. people don't rip on pinnacle because they get paid. they rip on pinnacle because pinnacle continues to be a shining example of a poorly run airline that allows people to do dumb things with little oversight.

I don't give a rat's if you want to rip on the company - management deserves everything they get because of their policies.

But when you rip on the entire pilot group as a whole you only show your own ignorance. The odds that EVERY PILOT or even the MAJORITY of them would ever have wrapped themselves in the chain of events that took place here, before OR after 3701, are VERY slim odds indeed.

Every airline has their share of idiots, just as every airline has picture perfect examples of CRM, flying abilities, and leadership. Most of us are in the middle somewhere. To blame an entire pilot group (a large percentage of which are probably more experienced than you are) for one crew's actions is inherently ignorant of reality.

Incidentally, BOTH pilots were Gulfstreamers, but I'm not going to get into yet another PFT debate.

 

[405]

wow. no one would ever guess you are a bitter person. just because you don't like being a paper pusher in the pinnacle soc doesn't mean the rest of us can't learn something still.

The word "bitter" doesn't really do justice about the way I personally feel about Pinnacle now. Thanks for the "paper pusher" comment. That statement speaks volumes about your maturity level and work ethic as a pilot. To me, that says you respect dispatchers like you respect garbage men. I can only guess that you are one of the problematic, b*tchy, needy, over analytical pilot some poor underpaid bastard in scheduling/dispatch has to deal with every day at whatever airline you work for and b*tch about daily. You must be a joy to sit with in a cockpit all day. As I said before, one can do a search and get enough about 3701 to neglect their wife and kids for an evening.

you wonder why pinnacle continually gets ripped on. maybe because your pilots continually do stupid, unsafe things. people don't rip on pinnacle because they get paid. they rip on pinnacle because pinnacle continues to be a shining example of a poorly run airline that allows people to do dumb things with little oversight.

First off, they're not "my" pilots. I don't own them and I'm not here on a social visit. I do my job to the best of my ability with the limited resources I have at my fingertips. It is NOT my fault that the pilot training may have been pure SH*T before. This place has grown way too fast and it shows. I will give you that. What you other morons don't get is that we have 2000+ pilots and all we ever read about is the small percentage that do stupid sh*t on this board and it gets really old. We have a large percentage that fly every day and they do it very well.

go on being bitter. just don't forget to pull your head out of the sand once in a while to take a gaze at reality.

I will continue to be bitter until I get out of this industry and away from pricks like you. I have been in aviation now for almost fifteen years and I am absolutely sick of it. Until I get away from stains like yourself - the over analytical, pompous dumba$$ with the "my sh!t doesn't stink" attitude that you obviously have - I will never be happy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

These guys certainly created their own misfortune. How they got through any screening process is a puzzler. In my humble opinion, pay for training creates an obligation on the airline to get you through in exchange for the up front cash. A professional pilot should get paid for their work - end of story.

Yes, in my opinion the FAA should pull the airline's certificate. This is much more onerous than anythng Val U Jet did, yet the FAA seems to be taking it much less seriously.

All this being said, ALPA is correct to put focus on the core lock issue. It has been a while since I read the reports, but it seems that I remember around 23% of the CF34's were coming from GE with tolerances so close they would exhibit core lock. Bombardier's testing procedure was conservative and usually you would not give an engine several minutes to stabilize at idle before shutting it down in an emergency. We probably need a procedure to in flight start off the APU, as well as a discussion of what core lock is during systems class. I shudder to think what would have happened if the ADG had not functioned and powered hydraulic 3.

I have to think that if either of these pilots had known much about the RJ, or high altitude aerodynamics they would not have gotten into this mess. Had they acted as professionals it would not have happened either. In both cases this should have not made it out of the airline's training department - shame on Pinnacle, shame on them.

~~~^~~~

 

[TonyC]

Who was the Flying Pilot?

Sadly, neither pilot was flying. They were both joyriding.


At two points in time, once while climbing with 2 engines and an autopilot, and once while descending with no engines and no autopilot, both pilot seats were empty as they were doing their seat swap.



The airplane manufacturer, the engine manufacturer, and the company would all love to pin all the blame on the crew. They'd have nothing to fix themselves. They wouldn't need to modify procedures or hardware or training or policies. The dead crew would be the de facto solution to the problem of the stupid crew. Only ALPA is willing to defend the deceased pilots, even with all their warts and all their faults. If that means that pilots in the future are better trained and better equipped to deal with the phenomena that this crew ignorantly encountered that fateful night, so be it. Even as stupid as we might think they were, they still deserve an advocate.





Search the board for "3701" and "dude" and you'll find a good number of threads that began during the NTSB sunshine hearings. Most of this ground has already been plowed.




.

 

[PCL_128]

These guys certainly created their own misfortune. How they got through any screening process is a puzzler. In my humble opinion, pay for training creates an obligation on the airline to get you through in exchange for the up front cash. A professional pilot should get paid for their work - end of story.

For the record, Pinnacle hasn't had a PFT program for years. Pilots from GIA didn't pay anything to Pinnacle for the job. GIA is the PFT airline, not Pinnacle.

 

[tricky]

The only thing that is sad but true is the fact that your only intrest in aviation safety is the sensational stories told in the cockpit to pass time. Hundreds of pages of the public docket are available on the NTSB web site. Take time to read them. Look at the FDR data for the 3 barrel rolls. Then think about apologizing to dead men.

how about they apologize to the peoples houses that they decided to wipe out.

 

[mckpickle]

WOULD YOU ARM-CHAIR KNOW-IT-ALLS PLEASE SHUT THE F*CK UP!

Thier families may read this. Lawyers may read this. LET IT GO!

 

[Captain Overs]

WOULD YOU ARM-CHAIR KNOW-IT-ALLS PLEASE SHUT THE F*CK UP!

Thier families may read this. Lawyers may read this. LET IT GO!

I guess people can't speak their mind on a public forum. Wouldn't want to offend or hurt anyone's feelings.

 

["GO AROUND"]

You actually think the lawyers don't have every scrap of info on this you're clueless. Sorry I don't hang out here enough to have seen the previous threads. I didn't start this to bash the pilots or their families, they did that on their own and have to endure that afterlife on their own. We have pilots here at ASA that have done some stupid things that fortunately didn't end up like this. Some that were humble about it and some not, the latter I have a problem with getting their job back. They are the ones I would never trust my family with.

 

[propjockey]

Who cares if lawyers read this? There's nothing on here that isn't public information.

 

[FN FAL]

Who cares if lawyers read this? There's nothing on here that isn't public information.

True...I just don't know why the scab had to be picked off of this wound. Anybody who's interested in the crash has already read the CVR transcripts more than once already and the FDR narrative as well.

What's up with the Pinnacle v. Mesaba stuff lately?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

how about they apologize to the peoples houses that they decided to wipe out.

They didnt take out any houses...

 

[mckpickle]

Well apparently you've never been called in to testify as a witness because of something posted on a public forum as I have.


We've all F'ed up and screwed around. These guys just got caught. I hope do god if I ever screw up my family and friends aren't subjected to the musings of the idiots on here. They are dead. Let them rest.

 

[NoBathroom]

Thank you, mckpickle!

And, yes, Jesse's wife is aware of this website. Why don't you all think of her as she struggles to raise three daughters alone...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Did you expect ALPA to take the blame for this?

These pilots were among the most unprofessional in history based on what they did during this flight. Yet ALPA shifts the blame to "core lock" and claims the pilots did everything they could.

What these two clowns did is an embarrassment to our entire industry. Yet the blame will be deflected to Bombardier, GE, etc. and the true cause of this will forever be dilluted.

If ALPA really had safety as their main interest, they would own up to this.

I'm not holding my breath.

YAWN.......

Same ol same ol...

Before I get started, I did see a clown pilot on my last trip... Shirt was bunched up at the waist, looked dryer pulled, no iron. But what really stood out was the cotton pants. The Banana Republic/Britches/Abercrombe and Fitch label above the right hip pocket was real cute. (hint: if you are going to be cheap and buy cotton pants as your professional image, at least take the fashion tag off) But the coup de grace was his left front pocket...ripped from the seams so his fat hand could fit inside.... Everyone else in the crewroom bought the uniform pants and had them professionally dry cleaned and along comes this clown who carves himself out his own special deal at everyones expenses.....

But let's talk about ALPA not taking "responsibility" and "owning up to this..."

Are you guys serious? What do you expect ALPA to do or say? How about drafting a message that ALPA would write in "owning up". How would it read?

Is GE going to address core lock? NO! Thier lawyers are zipping up!

Is Bombardier going to address core lock? nope...they got lawyers too....

Does ALPA design jet engines? Does ALPA write CL-65 training syllabus? Does ALPA regulate and issue Pilot certification?

Are you guys that ignorant of ALPA? No wonder pilots feel ALPA robs them of 1.95%... pilots don't understand what they are paying for!! They don't know how it works....

Part of the problem is ALPA doesn't explain to pilots how the organization works... and maybe they like it that why so they can control the ignorant masses and do what they want with the dues money.

But the other part is the pilots who won't read, learn and understand how things work......

Maybe it is time the pilots 'owned up' a little too.....

 

[Captain Overs]

Thank you, mckpickle!

And, yes, Jesse's wife is aware of this website. Why don't you all think of her as she struggles to raise three daughters alone...

If you know her then maybe you could pass along there are better things to do than read this site. I'm sure she has better things to worry about than what people say about her loved one.

 

[FN FAL]

Thank you, mckpickle!

And, yes, Jesse's wife is aware of this website. Why don't you all think of her as she struggles to raise three daughters alone...

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