Pinnacle Confirms move to MSP

[Jon Rivoli]

I predict that Pinnacle will be around until 2015 when SkyW/ASA must renegotiate rates and if SkyW/ASA doesn't match Pinnacle rates there will be a lot of growth at Pinnacle and a lot of shrinkage at SkyW/ASA.

Look forward to getting your ATL base back and SLC too.

 

[xjhawk]

You guys are living in a dream world. You are going to get shut down, your interviews with Delta will never materialize, and you'll all be reaping what you sowed when you apply to other regionals and are subjected to the conditions and pay you voted for. Good luck.

and may you never miss that appointment with karma.....

 

[twott driver]

Oh, don't you worry about that. I've paid the price over the last 10 years. I just never caved, that's all. Being able to look my colleagues in the eye while walking in the terminal is a wonderful thing.

 

[xjhawk]

you are funny. you will get the same mack truck down your road as we got on ours. I for one voted to pay my mortgage since you will not and neither will ALPA (who actually instructed us to vote yes I might add). I also voted to support my kids while looking for another job. I also voted yes because its a lot easier to look for a job while I still have a job (currency currency currency). I will look everyone in the eye and the look people like you will get is a big F you as you are clueless nor have you held any ground. PM me and tell me where you are and just maybe I will believe you are something other than a ************************* and a liar.

ALPA was not holding the line-why should I lose my house so you can keep your pathetic wages and job. dickhead!

 

[gojo]

Oh, don't you worry about that. I've paid the price over the last 10 years. I just never caved, that's all. Being able to look my colleagues in the eye while walking in the terminal is a wonderful thing.

Is there some way you can distinguish yourself from other pilots other than looking at them in the eye? That way we may bow down to you when we see you.

 

[xjhawk]

and talk about holding my head up high.....f you. I was a US Army Ranger and Paratrooper. I was a US Army Officer, I know about pride and decision making and the difference between right and wrong. You should ask yourself who put Pinnacle in this position and give them the looks you seem to be reserving for Pinnacle Pilots. Why not walk up to a Delta pilot and ask him/her how they like their pay raise and profit sharing off the backs of an FO making $35k a year now instead of a livable $45k. ******************** you

 

[jynxyjericho]

and talk about holding my head up high.....f you. I was a US Army Ranger and Paratrooper. I was a US Army Officer, I know about pride and decision making and the difference between right and wrong. You should ask yourself who put Pinnacle in this position and give them the looks you seem to be reserving for Pinnacle Pilots. Why not walk up to a Delta pilot and ask him/her how they like their pay raise and profit sharing off the backs of an FO making $35k a year now instead of a livable $45k. ******************** you

Eh, let's face it, the Delta guys don't know nor do they care who we are. Furthermore, it isn't Delta pilot's fault. The sooner regional pilots understand that we and mainline aren't going to be in this together the better. That doesn't mean get rid of ALPA, it means get rid of the laughable hope that mainline pilots are going to swoop to our rescue. We aren't kids, mainline pilots aren't our parents, and we don't get allowances anymore if we beg.

Pinnacle was told GoJet prices or less, we got something slightly better for now. If GoJet, Republic and Compass had better contracts we'd be in a different position. The truth is that negotiations stall and stall and while the Pinnacle JCBA was a great contract you can't keep on pushing the ceiling while everyone else cheers and then takes your flying because they're cheaper. We need one union, one voice, one contract, one list.

If US regional pilots took a good look at the Canadian Jazz operation and said, "you know what, we'll put all the hard feelings aside and create one list," we'd be better off. Mainline guys don't want to do it, but certainly on the regional level we could accept the fact we are blue collar workers and just do something that works rather than bitching because someone else company went bankrupt, the company net value was nothing or worse, and the judge says figure something out or I will.

Who knows, maybe in 5 years we can all be to a major and forget this laughable time in our "career".

 

[twott driver]

you are funny. you will get the same mack truck down your road as we got on ours. I for one voted to pay my mortgage since you will not and neither will ALPA (who actually instructed us to vote yes I might add). I also voted to support my kids while looking for another job. I also voted yes because its a lot easier to look for a job while I still have a job (currency currency currency). I will look everyone in the eye and the look people like you will get is a big F you as you are clueless nor have you held any ground. PM me and tell me where you are and just maybe I will believe you are something other than a ************************* and a liar.

ALPA was not holding the line-why should I lose my house so you can keep your pathetic wages and job. dickhead!

Such a conflicted post, that my PM to you is probably the best reply, other than to add that my pathetic wages and job will always be less pathetic than yours, and I will never try and justify less. I can make the same or more money in a number of ways, and upon getting into this industry I made it a priority to create a stream of revenue that was independent of flying. I choose to not do this job for anything less than I currently make, and your vote makes it a strong likelihood that I will soon have to exercise that choice. So be it. I think I will be able to pay my mortgage and provide for my children.

 

[General Lee]

and talk about holding my head up high.....f you. I was a US Army Ranger and Paratrooper. I was a US Army Officer, I know about pride and decision making and the difference between right and wrong. You should ask yourself who put Pinnacle in this position and give them the looks you seem to be reserving for Pinnacle Pilots. Why not walk up to a Delta pilot and ask him/her how they like their pay raise and profit sharing off the backs of an FO making $35k a year now instead of a livable $45k. ******************** you

Easy man. Your company went BK and nobody but DL would give DIP financing to get you out. Had your company not gone BK, you'd have the same contract that you did prior. And, every penny in profit sharing and pay raises was negotiated, and it is good to raise the bar. If you want the same, apply or wait for a flow up, or go to another legacy. If you ever plan to leave PNCL and go to a legacy, you should want higher wages and profit sharing waiting for you. Don't blame everything on DL pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[gojo]

Such a conflicted post, that my PM to you is probably the best reply, other than to add that my pathetic wages and job will always be less pathetic than yours, and I will never try and justify less. I can make the same or more money in a number of ways, and upon getting into this industry I made it a priority to create a stream of revenue that was independent of flying. I choose to not do this job for anything less than I currently make, and your vote makes it a strong likelihood that I will soon have to exercise that choice. So be it. I think I will be able to pay my mortgage and provide for my children.

One of the best lessons in life for you to learn is that everyone is not cut from the same cloth. We are all different, and have different motives and circumstances for our decisions. I'm not sure why you feel like it's ok to come on here with your condecending better than everybody attitude. Your rants make you look like a spoiled person that's had everything handed to him. Furthermore, your simplistic views on this subject show a complete lack of knowledge on the complexity of what happened to Pinnacle, and the direction of the regional airline industry as a whole. The model is changing, and would have regardless of the Pinnacle vote.

 

[twott driver]

Fair enough, and I apologize for the tone. My reasons are not invalid though. As I said, good luck to us all. It's a great job, but I would not choose it again as a profession. And as for being handed anything, I have fought for and earned everything I have. Starting with nothing other than a family and a salary of $16500. Fun times.

 

[gojo]

Fair enough, and I apologize for the tone. My reasons are not invalid though. As I said, good luck to us all. It's a great job, but I would not choose it again as a profession

Not sure i would either. There have been many more downs than ups the last decade

 

[General Lee]

One of the best lessons in life for you to learn is that everyone is not cut from the same cloth. We are all different, and have different motives and circumstances for our decisions. I'm not sure why you feel like it's ok to come on here with your condecending better than everybody attitude. Your rants make you look like a spoiled person that's had everything handed to him. Furthermore, your simplistic views on this subject show a complete lack of knowledge on the complexity of what happened to Pinnacle, and the direction of the regional airline industry as a whole. The model is changing, and would have regardless of the Pinnacle vote.

Unfortunately that is true. High gas makes most of your fleet inefficient. Throw in new rest/fatigue rules and hiring rules, and things get tougher. Twott is right about this last decade being tough, from 9-11 to the big BKs to the age 65 change. But, there is a bright light out there. Consolidation is helping put 6 weaker legacies into 3 stronger ones. Each one is starting to make bigger profits due to mergers and ancillary revenue, or fees. Even in tough economic times, the legacies are doing better. Pay rates are starting to get back towards pre BK wages, and the affects of Age 65 are waning as old timers start to retire in droves over the next few years. Hopefully many of you do flow up to mainline, or go to another legacy and get on early in the hiring waves, and enjoy the rest of your career with higher pay and better QOL. All 3 legacies will be a good choice in the first couple years of hiring. Good luck!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Monster Buck]

and talk about holding my head up high.....f you. I was a US Army Ranger and Paratrooper. I was a US Army Officer, I know about pride and decision making and the difference between right and wrong. You should ask yourself who put Pinnacle in this position and give them the looks you seem to be reserving for Pinnacle Pilots. Why not walk up to a Delta pilot and ask him/her how they like their pay raise and profit sharing off the backs of an FO making $35k a year now instead of a livable $45k. ******************** you

Over the last few months I have read a lot of what you said and have been on your side.....until you wrote this. Its disappointing to find out that you are not as smart as I thought.

 

[saabass]

Monster,
You being former XJ, and still closely connected to our family, I'm surprised by your statement. You were here during our last bk and so we're others very close to you. XJ/9E is now flying DC9 replacement jets for Regional Saab wages (both Capt and FO). You know we had no choice in either BK, NWA/DAL (aka NWA is sheepskin clothing) decided to put us here so they will make more money. It's silly to think Deltas profits were not helped by our cheap lift. It is very sad to think of people stuck down here at the regionals with a hired date of 2001 going to make 35k a year. We are all frustrated with Management (both our company and above) decision to kick around regionals over and over while they are making money hand over fist. I think that is what Hawk is saying. Congrats on getting out.

 

[sinkrate]

Easy man. Your company went BK and nobody but DL would give DIP financing to get you out. Had your company not gone BK, you'd have the same contract that you did prior. And, every penny in profit sharing and pay raises was negotiated, and it is good to raise the bar. If you want the same, apply or wait for a flow up, or go to another legacy. If you ever plan to leave PNCL and go to a legacy, you should want higher wages and profit sharing waiting for you. Don't blame everything on DL pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Delta's scope rules that severly limit how a 50 seat AC can be used make them unprofitable for Delta - not the price of fuel. Under NW scope rules the 50 seat AC were very profitable for NW - and so was PCL. If you limited the 757 fleet to legs of one hour and nothing but hub turns it would not be profitable either. No swept wing jet would be.

Dalpa's intent in negotiating these scope rules was to make all 50 seat AC and operations unprofitable. Yes, Dalpa was a direct contributor to PCL's bankruptcy. Under these rediculous scope rules Delta had to find a way to shed its 50 seat fleet. If they still had NW's scope rules Delta would not have a reason to do that and PCL would not have entered BK.

Delta's competitors are slowly but steadily adding service to all the small markets Delta is retreating from due to these scope rules. In the end these scope rules are going to force Delta to shrink more as they continue to lose market share. Small market business travelers are leaving them for United and AMR and taking their international business with them.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Well, mainline could pick up some turboprops and hit those small communities hard.

 

[RT8VA]

I was at Mesaba during the first bankruptcy and it is an awful thing to go through without a lot of choices. The irony is that the majors are starting to make it more of a career position than a job again and if they didn't every one here would call them sell outs for signing a crappy deal. Unfortunately one of the side affects of the last two major contracts is going to be a huge fundamental shift in regional lift causing bad situations at the regional level. The hope is that the pilots that would like to come to the majors now will have a better place to be. When I started at CAL the pay was 29 dollars an hour, while the contract is far from what was expected in some areas I believe the starting pay and significant second year pay that a new hire will receive is a part of the contract I am very proud of. I will not get those pay rates and neither would any one on the list that had a vote since they would have to get fired and re hired, ( hope no one wishes that on me ) but it was still put in there. I had a number of friends that told me I would love to go to CAL but I just cant take the pay cut and now that isn't going to be as hard.

Every one on here take a breath and give the guys from PCL some slack, and remember a lot of Delta, United, and other major airline pilots came from the regional airlines when the transition was tough and heard from all of their friends that this needed to be a better career not just a job so give the Delta guys a break too for signing a better contract and making a better future not just for themselves but for those that follow for a change. Good luck guys and to all the families displaced my Mesaba friends are still my family and I keep in touch with many of them, people care more then you think.

 

[twott driver]

On reflection, and having had a pretty civil discussion with XJHawk on the side, I will admit that my frustrations are misdirected. I have known this all along, but sometimes it's easier to take shots at the closest targets, and it takes being called out to refocus. I cannot blame the Pinnacle pilots for how they voted. You had two pretty ********************tey choices, and little support or room to work. Bills to pay, kids to feed, time and breathing room to look for a new job etc etc. I understand. The big picture and long term consequences are not ones primary focus when faced with those pressures.

The blame lies squarely with a sham bankruptcy code, thieves for management, an ineffective and unrepresentative union, a business model that is unsustainable, no solidarity in the pilot ranks and an economic environment that doesn't leave too many other options. F them all I say.

I will continue doing what I do, and building on my other business on the side. I strongly encourage every one of you to be doing the same. Power comes from not being beholden to anybody for your livelihood, and having the option of telling them where they can stick it when it is no longer worth doing for what they are offering.

 

[RT8VA]

The blame lies squarely with a sham bankruptcy code, thieves for management, an ineffective and unrepresentative union, a business model that is unsustainable, no solidarity in the pilot ranks and an economic environment that doesn't leave too many other options. F them all I say.

+1

 

[Simon Says]

On reflection, and having had a pretty civil discussion with XJHawk on the side, I will admit that my frustrations are misdirected. I have known this all along, but sometimes it's easier to take shots at the closest targets, and it takes being called out to refocus. I cannot blame the Pinnacle pilots for how they voted. You had two pretty ********************tey choices, and little support or room to work. Bills to pay, kids to feed, time and breathing room to look for a new job etc etc. I understand. The big picture and long term consequences are not ones primary focus when faced with those pressures.

The blame lies squarely with a sham bankruptcy code, thieves for management, an ineffective and unrepresentative union, a business model that is unsustainable, no solidarity in the pilot ranks and an economic environment that doesn't leave too many other options. F them all I say.

I will continue doing what I do, and building on my other business on the side. I strongly encourage every one of you to be doing the same. Power comes from not being beholden to anybody for your livelihood, and having the option of telling them where they can stick it when it is no longer worth doing for what they are offering.

Not on Facebook nor am a I a fan but...

+1

 

[Mickey Mouse]

On reflection, and having had a pretty civil discussion with XJHawk on the side, I will admit that my frustrations are misdirected. I have known this all along, but sometimes it's easier to take shots at the closest targets, and it takes being called out to refocus. I cannot blame the Pinnacle pilots for how they voted. You had two pretty ********************tey choices, and little support or room to work. Bills to pay, kids to feed, time and breathing room to look for a new job etc etc. I understand. The big picture and long term consequences are not ones primary focus when faced with those pressures.

The blame lies squarely with a sham bankruptcy code, thieves for management, an ineffective and unrepresentative union, a business model that is unsustainable, no solidarity in the pilot ranks and an economic environment that doesn't leave too many other options. F them all I say.

I will continue doing what I do, and building on my other business on the side. I strongly encourage every one of you to be doing the same. Power comes from not being beholden to anybody for your livelihood, and having the option of telling them where they can stick it when it is no longer worth doing for what they are offering.

How true it is

 

[Monster Buck]

Monster,
You being former XJ, and still closely connected to our family, I'm surprised by your statement. You were here during our last bk and so we're others very close to you. XJ/9E is now flying DC9 replacement jets for Regional Saab wages (both Capt and FO). You know we had no choice in either BK, NWA/DAL (aka NWA is sheepskin clothing) decided to put us here so they will make more money. It's silly to think Deltas profits were not helped by our cheap lift. It is very sad to think of people stuck down here at the regionals with a hired date of 2001 going to make 35k a year. We are all frustrated with Management (both our company and above) decision to kick around regionals over and over while they are making money hand over fist. I think that is what Hawk is saying. Congrats on getting out.

Yes you are right i was there during the first bk and back during the NWA strike in 98. Mesaba was flying replacement DC9 flying with the Avros over 15 years ago with new hires in the right seat making 16K! This is nothing new. I remember very well how it was and more importantly how it currently is. If you check my past posts you can see that I fully understand you guys had no choice and were handed a shat sandwich. I have never disputed that. You can also look back and see I was one of the first to call a duck a duck and point out this was all at the hands of DAL. I wish it was different. DAL made this business decision to handle their finances this way. The same thing that was done to both NWA and DAL pilots just a few years ago. BK's that striped contracts and much more. I don't like it any more than you but thats business and the best we can do is fight back with anything we can. However, that all being said, the words that I highlighted of Hawks are crap and childishly written.

Having been on both sides of the fence, helping guys with letters of recommendations, I hope as many great pilots from Mesaba come over as possible. Also by being on both sides I see that Mesaba/Pinnacle business is a drop in the DAL worldwide bucket. DAL is doing exactly what other majors like United have done to regionals for years, again nothing new. I don't like it or condone but..........I was going to let it lie but Hawk just did to DAL pilots that which he has chastised several other regional pilots for doing to him during your TA.....point the fingers of blame at fellow pilots.

As a DAL pilot I know that we are going to try hard to reduce regional outsource, get as much pay as possible and tighten the scope as much as we can. It isn't always perfect and everyone has thier opinion how we did but that is the goal and that was what was done. I expect it is as a DAL pilot and I expected it as a Mesaba pilot just the same. As a Mesaba pilot I knew that my flying existed because NWA existed, nothing less, I took what I could and ran with it and I would have never pointed a finger at the NWA pilots for our woes.

I hope everyone gets out to greener pastures.

 

[General Lee]

Delta's scope rules that severly limit how a 50 seat AC can be used make them unprofitable for Delta - not the price of fuel. Under NW scope rules the 50 seat AC were very profitable for NW - and so was PCL. If you limited the 757 fleet to legs of one hour and nothing but hub turns it would not be profitable either. No swept wing jet would be.

Dalpa's intent in negotiating these scope rules was to make all 50 seat AC and operations unprofitable. Yes, Dalpa was a direct contributor to PCL's bankruptcy. Under these rediculous scope rules Delta had to find a way to shed its 50 seat fleet. If they still had NW's scope rules Delta would not have a reason to do that and PCL would not have entered BK.

Delta's competitors are slowly but steadily adding service to all the small markets Delta is retreating from due to these scope rules. In the end these scope rules are going to force Delta to shrink more as they continue to lose market share. Small market business travelers are leaving them for United and AMR and taking their international business with them.

Ummmmmm No. $91 a barrel oil and 50 seaters don't mix, especially when you throw them on cities that underperform. That's where Gulfsteam can come in and try it next. Can you please give some examples of where United will come in and take business away? The current plan is to add 70 and 76 seaters to some current 50 seat routes that are close to being profitable, and then 717s will cover many of the current 76 seat routes. Adding the "first class" option to some of those current 50 seat markets may just do the trick. That right there will rebuff United and their large fleet of CR2s and E145s. The old way of thinking was businessmen wanted "frequency." Instead, most want more room and if possible a lot more room on a mainline aircraft, like the incoming 717s. Ahhhhhh, it will be nice for the business people who pay most of the bills. United doesn't have a 100 seater for that particular market, and is still behind on the number of 70 and 76 seaters (the have some 66 seaters). Their massive amount of CR2s and E145s won't help them during this high oil.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

Delta's scope rules that severly limit how a 50 seat AC can be used make them unprofitable for Delta - not the price of fuel. Under NW scope rules the 50 seat AC were very profitable for NW - and so was PCL.

Have you ever heard of the "CASM" acronym? Blaming the demise of the 50-seater on DALPA? You give us far too much credit. As a former-FlyI driver -- I can assure you the 50-seat RJ was doomed without mainline subsidy.

 

[xjhawk]

RT8VA and Twott Driver have hit it right on. Twott Driver and I hashed it out and made our peace. I understand the frustration and where it comes from. Great posts guys.

 

[sinkrate]

Have you ever heard of the "CASM" acronym? Blaming the demise of the 50-seater on DALPA? You give us far too much credit. As a former-FlyI driver -- I can assure you the 50-seat RJ was doomed without mainline subsidy.

Ever heard af RASM? What happens to CASM for an AC when you double the leg length? On the same 800 mile segment a CRJ's CASM was a few cents more than a DC-9's.

According to RA PCL had 60 segments over 600 miles at the time of the merger. They were the bulk of PCL's operation and were all profitable. They all over flew a hub. They made small high dollar business markets a two leg one connection trip. Now all those city pairs are a three leg,two connection trip on DAL. They are still only two legs on AMR or UAL. Which carrier will the business traveller take?

Some examples for Mr. Lee are jax-pwm, far-mht, gso-bis, chs-lnk, cae-Bgm. Just about anything from the northeast or southeast to the midwest is now three legs on DAL because of DALPA's scope rules for 50 AC. These are segments that will never be able to support anything bigger than a 50 seat AC.

That is revenue that has left DAL and gone to AMR and UAL. It was DALPA that insisted on these rules that prohibit long range 50 seat AC use. Not management. Management knew exactly the revenue they were giving up so they must have gotten something else they valued more. Management also knew that those rules would turn the PCL operation unprofitable. The CASM flown by 50 seat AC increased over 50% and they were moved to routes that made no sense. They were moved from routes like MSP-PWM,BGR,MHT to essential airservice markets out of MSP.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I see your point. Do you think the other legacies are operating 50-seaters at a profit?

Independence Air, with 87 50-seaters and 12 A319's, and with no scope clause to restrict stage-length, fell flat on it's face. Why was this?

 

[General Lee]

Ever heard af RASM? What happens to CASM for an AC when you double the leg length? On the same 800 mile segment a CRJ's CASM was a few cents more than a DC-9's.

According to RA PCL had 60 segments over 600 miles at the time of the merger. They were the bulk of PCL's operation and were all profitable. They all over flew a hub. They made small high dollar business markets a two leg one connection trip. Now all those city pairs are a three leg,two connection trip on DAL. They are still only two legs on AMR or UAL. Which carrier will the business traveller take?

Some examples for Mr. Lee are jax-pwm, far-mht, gso-bis, chs-lnk, cae-Bgm. Just about anything from the northeast or southeast to the midwest is now three legs on DAL because of DALPA's scope rules for 50 AC. These are segments that will never be able to support anything bigger than a 50 seat AC.

That is revenue that has left DAL and gone to AMR and UAL. It was DALPA that insisted on these rules that prohibit long range 50 seat AC use. Not management. Management knew exactly the revenue they were giving up so they must have gotten something else they valued more. Management also knew that those rules would turn the PCL operation unprofitable. The CASM flown by 50 seat AC increased over 50% and they were moved to routes that made no sense. They were moved from routes like MSP-PWM,BGR,MHT to essential airservice markets out of MSP.

If the routes are that profitable, they might put a CR7 or a CR9 on it coming up here. The 50 seaters probably couldn't make a profit on those with high gas. Was gas that high before the merger?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Jon Rivoli]

I see your point. Do you think the other legacies are operating 50-seaters at a profit?

Independence Air, with 87 50-seaters and 12 A319's, and with no scope clause to restrict stage-length, fell flat on it's face. Why was this?

They went head to head against United and when they wrote up their business plan oil was about $30bbl, it promptly went to near $100. They started with $200 million of which they spent about $100 million on a marketing campaign which had no appreciable effect. And they were paying leases on a bunch of idle dojets.

Expressjet was doing just fine with their branded operation until SKYW cut the legs out from under them, r.e. their CAL contract.

Legacies no longer have the aircraft to replace (or compete with) the RJ. Especially an operation starting with near a billion and a few hundred 90 seat aircraft.

What Delta did with Pinnacle has everything to do with Skyw Inc. carrying 20 -25% of their passengers every day. Delta can't afford that many eggs in one basket, lest the feed start dictating the terms of the contract.