Pinnacle, can You believe this....

[405]

Stupid

This thread has gotten ridiculous. The Pinnacle bashers act like this is the only airline with idiot pilots. I would assume if we all knew what happened every day at every airline, those people that say they "avoid Pinnacle" and "pay extra money to avoid Pinnacle" wouldn't ever fly in any commercial aircraft. Do you think Pinnacle is the only ones that have any kind of questionable issues? I seriously doubt it. If you knew what went on every day in the airline industry as a whole you probably wouldn't put your family on any aircraft going anywhere. Throw the family in the minivan and drive if that's what you have to do to make yourself feel safe.

 

[DoinTime]

Barrel rolls are all positive G manuevers.

I've been mistaken before but I learned aerobatics from one of the most respected pilots in the Southwest. He taught barrel rolls to be a long slow manuever that was negative one g on top and two g's on the bottom. Pulling them in any tighter was a cop out.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

I want in on the nit-picking too. Actually, both types are "aileron" rolls. But, a "barrel" roll is not an "axial" roll. And I still don't know the difference between a donut and a danish.

MM

 

[leardrivr]

No they are not the only ones. I try to avoid every regional airline if I can help it.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. The Pinnacle bashers act like this is the only airline with idiot pilots. I would assume if we all knew what happened every day at every airline, those people that say they "avoid Pinnacle" and "pay extra money to avoid Pinnacle" wouldn't ever fly in any commercial aircraft. Do you think Pinnacle is the only ones that have any kind of questionable issues? I seriously doubt it. If you knew what went on every day in the airline industry as a whole you probably wouldn't put your family on any aircraft going anywhere. Throw the family in the minivan and drive if that's what you have to do to make yourself feel safe.

 

[405]

If I was you...

I would avoid all airlines. Just because they fly big planes doesn't mean they're idiot proof.

 

[AvroJockey]

It just floors me that 9E guys don't think their airline has a problem.

"Oh, well! Just status quo."
"Everyone's doin' it! I mean crashing, that is."

These posts just make 9E look more incompetent. Hubris will lead to your undoing as a air carrier, plain and simple.

 

[Towelie]

I would avoid all airlines. Just because they fly big planes doesn't mean they're idiot proof.

I don't think majors are without their problems. However, for only having just over 1,000 pilots Pinnacle sure has had more than their share of problems. I do agree that there seems to be a trend.

I personally think it is because your management sucks, they are much to focused on performance and not on safety, and your training department is a joke (based on the words of my Pinnacle friends, not mine).

I think certain stories have been exaggerated but at the same time there are enough true ones to get anyone's attention. Errors and accidents are more about the culture of the airline and much less about the individual pilots.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Just remember XJ guys (And I'm one of them, obviously)... We're about to get some very new and very unfamiliar equipment. With all the "high and mighty" attitudes around here, we'd all better hope we don't ding one or blow out the terminal windows with an unfamiliar push of the thrust levers. Wouldn't we all just look like cornholes?

MM

 

[AirBill]

No they are not the only ones. I try to avoid every regional airline if I can help it.

Yeah, and with corporate jets' safety record, I pretty much stay away from those, too.

Ever hear the story about a DC-9 crew that did barrel rolls with PAX aboard? And don't tell me that there aren't Lear crews that don't "have some fun" when they're flying empty legs. I've heard some pretty stupid remarks in this thread, but this one takes the cake. Check out the statistics for at least the past 10 years, and compare the numbers. Then tell me which one you think is safer.

Like I said, boneheads everywhere.

 

[leardrivr]

Actualy I tried to have fun doing rolls on revenue flights as well. Some of the worst insturment pilots I ever flew with left us to go fly for the regionals because we would'nt upgrade them to captain. There flying skills just simply sucked. The airplanes were old and had ongoing gremlins and we did not trust these guys had the ability to handle the enviornment. I had one guy with 1500 hours and a huge ego tell me he was to good to be a "freight dog". So I let him take command of the jet in some nasty weather in an old steam gauge lear. Well lets just say he almost lost the jet 4 times during vectoring. and came down the glide slope to DH at 200 knots with no gear or flaps because I wasn't going to hold his hand anymore. He is a captain at a regional now in a RJ. I bet he still sucks too. I found out he got the job because he said he was a lear pilot. Chit we wouldn't let the guy fly a C-310 by himself.

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, whatever Lear70; a newbie poster has no credibility. Aren't you the same guy who call Mesba's contract JUNK?

Yup. I'll say it again. Your rates you agreed to less than a year ago for CRJ's were less than ours for an airplane everyone knew you were getting (I said that back then too). Your "soft credits" are only worth 2 or 3% extra per year. Your new-hires may get pay during training but now they're stuck flying Saabs while new-hire F/O's next year go straight into the jet or even (gulp) upgrade before them. Truly an "industry-leading" contract. Pinnacle's sucks too, but I wasn't here when it was signed and hope to not be here when PCL's next one is signed but if I am, I'll guarantee you I'll be one of the people out there doing everything I can to push a "NO" vote if the T.A. isn't to my standards.

How many years of airline experience do you have?

7. 3 on the 727, a year as CA, and 4 here. 4 more years on the Lear before that, 3 as CA, and a bunch of bugsmasher flight instruction. Basically: enough to smell bullsh*t about this story when I heard it.

How about you Dribble?

 

[CatYaaak]

I've been mistaken before but I learned aerobatics from one of the most respected pilots in the Southwest. He taught barrel rolls to be a long slow manuever that was negative one g on top and two g's on the bottom. Pulling them in any tighter was a cop out.

Negative G during a barrel roll? He taught them wrong. What are they doing out there in the Southwest?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Your new-hires may get pay during training but now they're stuck flying Saabs while new-hire F/O's next year go straight into the jet or even (gulp) upgrade before them.

Now you're just getting silly.

Unless someone is going to go from 9E to XJ or vice versa, or is trying to decide where to go as a new-hire, this thread is pretty much useless.

ALPA Negotiator: We need a better contract! Ours sucks compared to airline XYZ's!

Company negotiator: That's funny, because I just read online about how great your pilots think your contract is compared to XYZ's.

At least Lear has got this down:

Your: A possessive pronoun. (E.g.: Dude, your grammar sucks.)
You're: A contraction of you are. (E.g.: Dude, you're bad at grammar.)

 

[FlyingFerris]

Aileron rolls....maybe. Barrel rolls....out of the question. The CRJ is not capable of enough nose-down elevator to do a barrel roll, nor do I believe the CRJ would respond very well to a sustained zero to negative g environment.

No nose down needed. Just start a quater loop then add roll and keep the back preasure in. I guess you try to do an outside barrel roll, but all the barrel rolls I have prefermed have been 1.5-3 positive G's.

 

[s3jetman]

I am just glad everyone found something to talk about besides GTA and GIA!!!!

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

Funny thing about 9E - they have the same paint job as the NWA mainline, are marketed to NWA customers as an NWA product, use our reservations and flight planning, wx, etc. In other words they represent the mainline as far as customers are concerned.

When these guys and girls wreck perfectly good airplanes, run them off runways, and other antics it is very much the concern of NWA pilots. This pilot groups conduct drags down our corporate image.

Thats funny you guys do alot for your own corporate image like land at the wrong airport. In an airbus of all airplanes.

Or try to beat a tornado to an airport...after the tower and terminal areas had been evacuated......and not succeed.

Or have both crewmembers show up tanked to fly home.

That probably has nothing to do with "dragging" down your corporate image.

Those who live in glass houses.................................

 

[mike51135]

I always book around Pinnacle......Even if it costs more.
My family will not ride on an aircraft operated by these clowns either.

As frequent NWA travelers, we started this after the RJ at FL410 accident, I personally thought it was one of the more disturbing accidents in recent memory.

Yeah, the "clowns" at Pinnacle have a bad history...
Take the incident where an intoxicated Pinnacle crew fly a 727 full of passengers from Fargo to MSP...oh wait, I guess that was big NWA. My mistake.

Or how about when that drunk Pinnacle captain flew a DC-10 with passengers from San Antonio, TX to MSP just a few years ago...oh wait, I guess that was also big NWA.

And last year when that Pinnacle crew landed a FMS-equipped A319 at the wrong airport-they sure were a bunch of Pinnacle "clowns"!...whoops, I guess that was also big NWA. Another mistake by me.

My point is that every airline has it's "clowns". To say that you will go to one certain airline to stay clear of clowns make you the CLOWN!

 

[flap operator]

Lear - you do alot of b!tching about our contract... but you should know it a bit better. There is no way a current saab FO is going to be (ghasp) bypassed by a potential CRJ newhire for a captain spot based on the terms in our contract. If your number comes up for a captain slot, you are free to go. The seat lock terms are for FOs moving between FO seats from fleet to fleet. Since there is unfortunately no financial incentive and such move ensures yet another 2 year seat lock, very FEW have done this. A vast majority of our FOs are more than 3 years senior and have never had the chane to upgrade thanks to our shrinkage and stagntion. So this seatlock doesn't apply.

Your whining about our contract is getting old. WTF can be done now? You ought to focus on helping yourself get a better contract at PNCl as our contract is water under the bridge. You guys have a long road ahead and focusing your energy on YOUR contract is time better spent. There were NEVER guarentees we were going to get CRJs. There was never a carrot for CRJs... there was however a reverse carrot with avros being parked and possibly eliminated. We had bigger fish to fry than worrying about our CRJ rates.

Give it a rest already and go out and work for the best CRJ rates in the industry... if only to hear you gloat and continue your militant chest beating.


FO

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Yeah, the "clowns" at Pinnacle have a bad history...
Take the incident where an intoxicated Pinnacle crew fly a 727 full of passengers from Fargo to MSP...oh wait, I guess that was big NWA. My mistake.

Or how about when that drunk Pinnacle captain flew a DC-10 with passengers from San Antonio, TX to MSP just a few years ago...oh wait, I guess that was also big NWA.

And last year when that Pinnacle crew landed a FMS-equipped A319 at the wrong airport-they sure were a bunch of Pinnacle "clowns"!...whoops, I guess that was also big NWA. Another mistake by me.

My point is that every airline has it's "clowns". To say that you will go to one certain airline to stay clear of clowns make you the CLOWN!

I'll take a drunk mainline guy over a clueless Gulfpuke grad ANYDAY...

so will many others from what we see here. Im sure there are fine guys/gals at Pinnacle...but we as pax cant pick our crews...and from what I have seen - you simply have pilots there who have no business being in those aircraft....and I dont totally blame the pilots...but who's giving them the keys??

Pinnacle. no way, never.

$200 extra to stay off anything Pinnacle.....a no-brainer to anyone who loves their family.

take it anyways you want man, just an opinion.

 

[BighitterLama]

From an observer from the days of Express 1 through Pinnacle and flying with some of them...a trend I have noticed is the risk taking that seems to go on at that culture. I believe it is mostly from lack of experience. This is my major concern.

I believe NWA is worried about airlinks and codeshares and it's liability (real or perceived)...but has been walking that tightrope while looking the other way.

 

[XJPilot547]

Lear70,

You seem to be completely blind to your own sorry contract. Did you ever think that it was your crap contract that made it hard for us to get better than what we did. Our old contract was head and shoulders above your 2000 contract. As for adding 2-3% for the work rules, you really need to see the difference. Block or better, trip guarantee, min day, 11 days off minimum are all huge. Ask all your boys who get junior manned to death. As a XJ pilot who commutes on PNCL exclusively, I thank all you guys for the ride and have never felt unsafe. However, it is getting old to see you comparing our 50 seat rate with yours but excluding the entire other 99% of the contract. Care to compare all those sections. And yes I was a no voter.

 

[dondk]

Lear70,

Don't think it won't happen again. You guys are a young pilot group, a majority have never been thru a contract before. The threat of an FO not seeing an upgrade soon is a powerful tool for mgmnt.

We know that.. that is why we are educating the junior part of our pilot group

For some of our pilot group (and others, just to avoid flame bait), the last job some of these FO's had was high school.

Personally, I don't see the "threat" of upgrade as reality for many of these FO's... Most know they stand a snowball's chance of upgrading in the next 3 years anyway. There are very few places they (or any FO) could go that will be quick and in a jet no less.

I don't see mgmt pulling a "mesa" and offering upgrades to everyone.. we don't have multiple fleets and we don't have the growth Mesa offered. We are still controlled by NWA, they set the pace of the airlinks growth not our management.

 

[RampTower]

The latest one going aroun is Pinnacle taxiing out with a deadheading Mesaba crew. The captain notices ice on the wings and notes how the crew does not de-ice. He writes a note to the FA when they're in line for takeoff. The FA gives the note to the captain and proceeds to continue in line. When the aircraft took the runway for position and hold, the Mesaba captain just stood up. The FA told him to sit down but he refused until they de-iced. Fortunately, the Pinnacle aircraft taxied back for a de-ice.

If this is sticking your nose where it doesn't belong, why didn't the Pinnacle crew write up the Mesaba Captain? Guess he would've told the Feds, etc why he stood up to delay the flight. Then the 9E crew would've had their own, bigger problems to deal with.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I don't want to get near some of these crazy arguments on this thread, but I do have one question: Why all the negativity to the NWA mainline pilot who [supposedly] was concerned over what he percieved to be unsafe? I would rather have a mainline guy or gal come over and voice his or her concerns over something they observed us doing, rather than keep their trap shut and possibly watch a disaster unfold.

I know in the cockpit, with my inexperience on the line, when I see something which may be completely normal but yet is unfamiliar to me, I question it. Often, it is something 100% safe and normal, but I haven't been exposed to it. So I say thank you for addressing my concern and educating me on a policy or procedure deeply hidden in the operations manuals with which I was unfamiliar. I don't get my ass all bent out of shape because I was "schooled." I'd rather be ridiculed on Flightinfo for a week for questioning a normal fueling procedure I was unfamiliar with than watch an airplane get fueled and burned up because someone decided they would try and hot fuel like they did in their skydiver-driver days.

 

[acaTerry]

What's unbelievable here is the NWA pilot interfering in something that was not his business.

Disagree. Safety is everyone's business, who is right or wrong can be discussed after the safety issue is resolved. So far as the fueler, he took the shortest / most immediate person in the chain of the issue in question. If I have a fire extinguisher in hand and my kitchen is on fire, I'm using the extinguisher and THEN calling the fire department.

 

[DoinTime]

Why all the negativity to the NWA mainline pilot who [supposedly] was concerned over what he percieved to be unsafe?

There is considerable negativity toward all these fantastical stories about PCL pilots because the vast majority of them are BULLSH*T. If this mainline guy was for real he may have provided some detail into his allegations. As of yet he wont even admit where he heard this story (or when he made it up). Same goes for this bullsh*t story that RampTower just spewed out above. Just vindictive rumors fabricated out of hatred and arrogance.

I fly as much as anyone in the same airspace as every last Mesaba and NWA pilot. I see and hear some bonehead things out of all three groups yet I don't feel a need to air their dirty laundry out on a web board.

I'll stop being pissed when everyone else stops making sh*t up aboutmy coworkers

 

[xjcaptain]

Let's just say that I can personaly vouch for Ramp Tower's "story". If you choose to believe it or not, that's your choice. However, I'm can also say that "Doin Time" wasn't there, unless he/she was it was in front of the cockpit door.

 

[DoinTime]

Let's just say that I can personaly vouch for Ramp Tower's "story". If you choose to believe it or not, that's your choice. However, I'm can also say that "Doin Time" wasn't there, unless he/she was it was in front of the cockpit door.

If you were there lets hear some flight numbers and dates.

 

[jetflier]

If you were there lets hear some flight numbers and dates.

Hey doing time,

I see why you are doing time...........your writing slant speaks volumes about you.

Yes I was the NWA capt in SYR.

The incident happened on 04/21/2005 at approx 1:00pm, I am the NWA capt who observed this incident first hand.

If you want to know what your chief pilot said, i was told second hand by the NWA chief dispatcher who spoke to your chief pilot, he only relayed to me on acars what was said about hot refueling, and the fact that he was qouted as saying , "they did what?! when told about their being an empty cockpit while hot refueling.

Your tone on this web board sets up the dividing line between our pilot groups, and I think you enjoy being the center of attention,....a blowhard.

I will continue to enjoy reading your posts and will always look forward to the day you might join NWA, nothing would please me more.

 

[jetflier]

If this really happened.. just give us the date... One look in SBS and we can call this a bluff or not.

So how about providing the date.. no harm no foul to the one who initiated this "story"

The date is 04/21/2005 at approx 1:00pm SYR time, and I called the incident in to NWA SOC Chief Dispatcher, check the logs.... needless to say I am the NWA capt who observed this.

PS My wife is also a pilot and I have nothing against female pilots