Pinnacle and Class Envy

[pilotyip]

While I do have a college degree, I think overall most of them are not really worth the expenditure other than as a "work permit"....Google the phrase "college debt bubble" to see what is in store for us next.

You are the man; you get the big picture. The college degree by itself means nothing. Anyone can get one, pay your fee get your B. Now a degree from a top notch school, it a subject matter that leads to a good job, that is something different and something many people would have trouble achieving. As advice I gave to a young man some years back, after his first year of college he was accepted into the Army's WO flying program. He asked me should he stay and finish college or take the flight training. I told him you do college any time, but an opportunity to fly in the military is hard to come by, go for it and never look back. Basically few people get accepted to military flight programs, everyone can get into a college somewhere.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ok, I agree with what you are all saying. The debt thing is totally out of control on college student loans. If anything, these days, people aren't finding a job with their college degrees, or are told that a masters is necessary before they can really be employable in their field. It's a money sucking proposition that preys on students and others hopeful to make a good living. Now I don't have a problem with that "system" as long as there are jobs to be had, amd people are able to pay of your school debt and make good money down the road. Today, that's no longer true. I chose a professional degree (engineering) and got some work experience in that so I think it should be a good backup. However, I can name plenty of engineers (or laywers) who are sitting unemployed or under-employed.


So, today in 2012, is it really worth it? By looking at employable statistics, the answer would lean towards 'no.'

 

[JustaNumber]

So, today in 2012, is it [a college education] really worth it? By looking at employable statistics, the answer would lean towards 'no.'

"lean" is not the right word.

Let's look at the statistics. Only 40% of people who enter college will graduate within 6 years. But assuming you're one of the diligent, only 56% of graduates will find ANY kind of work within a year. And 50% of those jobs did not require a college degree to begin with. So overall the math says you have approximately a 15% chance of college being worth it, 25% if you do everything right. Or put another way, there is a 75-85% chance that the money spent on college will be flushed down the drain.

The reason for this situation (that affects all pilots) is a subject that will marginalize you if you talk about it, but I'll risk my post and this thread being deleted anyway. The whole cause is that there is a literally unlimited supply of borrowed and printed money being indiscriminately thrown at education, causing almost everyone to attempt college, yet there is actually a shrinking supply of jobs in the U.S. The reason for the shrinking supply of jobs has to do with the unsustainably high value of the dollar compared to the other world currencies, making Chinese workers much more in demand than American workers. The reason for the unreasonably high value of the dollar has to do with the fact that all world oil sales are required to be transacted in dollars (by explicit political agreements), necessarily creating artificial worldwide demand for dollars. This is also the reason the U.S. can get away with the unlimited money printing that fuels the college debt bubble.

These economic and political forces are what everyone really should be studying, because they affect us more than most people imagine.

 

[pilotyip]

All these lead to the question "Why pursue a 4yr degree in Aviation Technology?" and build up $100K in debt. Going to a 4 yr. college out of high school is not the only way to get your degree. The degree is not needed until the final step for the vaulted interview at DAL, FedEx, and Alaska. Go to school part time, cheap community college, get a job start building time, do on line courses, or even find an employer who has tuition assistance. Remember you are not doing this to learn much, you are doing it to check a box on the final step.

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We hired a 20 year old pilot a few years ago, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt. at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is started as a DA-20 F/O at $33K, he was a DA-20 Capt. the day he turned 23, he had his degree completed by the time he was 26 years old. At that time he should had 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He had his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management that our company helped pay for through the tuition assistance program, and no debt.

He was just hired at a Fortune 5 company as a Corp pilot.

 

[Full of LUV]

"lean" is not the right word.

Let's look at the statistics. Only 40% of people who enter college will graduate within 6 years. But assuming you're one of the diligent, only 56% of graduates will find ANY kind of work within a year. And 50% of those jobs did not require a college degree to begin with. So overall the math says you have approximately a 15% chance of college being worth it, 25% if you do everything right. Or put another way, there is a 75-85% chance that the money spent on college will be flushed down the drain.

The reason for this situation (that affects all pilots) is a subject that will marginalize you if you talk about it, but I'll risk my post and this thread being deleted anyway. The whole cause is that there is a literally unlimited supply of borrowed and printed money being indiscriminately thrown at education, causing almost everyone to attempt college, yet there is actually a shrinking supply of jobs in the U.S. The reason for the shrinking supply of jobs has to do with the unsustainably high value of the dollar compared to the other world currencies, making Chinese workers much more in demand than American workers. The reason for the unreasonably high value of the dollar has to do with the fact that all world oil sales are required to be transacted in dollars (by explicit political agreements), necessarily creating artificial worldwide demand for dollars. This is also the reason the U.S. can get away with the unlimited money printing that fuels the college debt bubble.

These economic and political forces are what everyone really should be studying, because they affect us more than most people imagine.

Totally agree that education debt is sprialling out of control, no one polices higher ed costs. In this last decade have you heard of any college profs taking a pay cut? I know, proposterous.

But your logic above is not congruent. You state that printing money by the US is out of control, yet in the same paragraph you claim that the value of the US $ is being held too high..... well if that were so, wouldn't printing more $ be the answer to devaluing the currency? Afterall, someday a painful lesson of inflation will be the only way the US willl ever be able to repay $15 trillion and growing in debt.
LUV

 

[JustaNumber]

But your logic above is not congruent. You state that printing money by the US is out of control, yet in the same paragraph you claim that the value of the US $ is being held too high..... well if that were so, wouldn't printing more $ be the answer to devaluing the currency? Afterall, someday a painful lesson of inflation will be the only way the US willl ever be able to repay $15 trillion and growing in debt.
LUV

Read the book Currency Wars by James Rickards. Your logic initially sounds correct, but in reality all currencies are being devalued concurrently (we're not the only ones with a printing press!) It's just that the U.S. started out with the most overvalued currency in the early '70's, and we've maintained that supremacy, even though the whole world is in a race to the bottom to devalue in order to try to win more manufacturing jobs. This explains the apparent contradiction between our "strong dollar policy" and our obvious devaluating actions.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

All these lead to the question "Why pursue a 4yr degree in Aviation Technology?" and build up $100K in debt. Going to a 4 yr. college out of high school is not the only way to get your degree. The degree is not needed until the final step for the vaulted interview at DAL, FedEx, and Alaska. Go to school part time, cheap community college, get a job start building time, do on line courses, or even find an employer who has tuition assistance. Remember you are not doing this to learn much, you are doing it to check a box on the final step.

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We hired a 20 year old pilot a few years ago, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt. at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is started as a DA-20 F/O at $33K, he was a DA-20 Capt. the day he turned 23, he had his degree completed by the time he was 26 years old. At that time he should had 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He had his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management that our company helped pay for through the tuition assistance program, and no debt.

He was just hired at a Fortune 5 company as a Corp pilot.

What kind of internal connections and hints did this wonder pilot have? Or did he basically hit the early level of powerball lotto?

 

[Smarta$$]

Read the book Currency Wars by James Rickards. Your logic initially sounds correct, but in reality all currencies are being devalued concurrently (we're not the only ones with a printing press!) It's just that the U.S. started out with the most overvalued currency in the early '70's, and we've maintained that supremacy, even though the whole world is in a race to the bottom to devalue in order to try to win more manufacturing jobs. This explains the apparent contradiction between our "strong dollar policy" and our obvious devaluating actions.

What is the solution and what should be done regarding the points you made?

 

[xjhawk]

the pilots daddy was most likely an exec at a fortune 500 company. If you cannot see the disgust in my response....yes there is disgust. Not to mention some of these National companies overlooking more experienced pilots for the less experienced for one reason or another. Oh? You ask what reasons? I am glad you asked. Other than getting interviews and jobs based on past merits it seems internal recommendations mean more than experience, just as race, gender, and the chuck Yeager factor seem to be leaving a fair number of experienced pilots scratching their heads wondering what they can do next.

In case you are wondering I served my country for 14 years as both an enlisted and an officer, four year degree from the U of MN (not on line), 5500 total time, 1500 121 Turbine PIC, earned my time as a flight instructor etc etc etc. But yet no interview, no job to get my A$$ away from Pinnacle airlines.....while I know a lot of FO's with no PIC getting jobs with jet blue, Virgin, etc etc etc.......

I don't know-myby is spelt som ting wong on me reesume?

Bitter....yes
give up....heck no

 

[pilotyip]

the pilots daddy was most likely an exec at a fortune 500 company. If you cannot see the disgust in my response....yes there is disgust. Not to mention some of these National companies overlooking more experienced pilots for the less experienced for one reason or another. Oh? You ask what reasons? I am glad you asked. Other than getting interviews and jobs based on past merits it seems internal recommendations mean more than experience, just as race, gender, and the chuck Yeager factor seem to be leaving a fair number of experienced pilots scratching their heads wondering what they can do next.

In case you are wondering I served my country for 14 years as both an enlisted and an officer, four year degree from the U of MN (not on line), 5500 total time, 1500 121 Turbine PIC, earned my time as a flight instructor etc etc etc. But yet no interview, no job to get my A$$ away from Pinnacle airlines.....while I know a lot of FO's with no PIC getting jobs with jet blue, Virgin, etc etc etc.......

I don't know-myby is spelt som ting wong on me reesume?

Bitter....yes
give up....heck no

How do you really feel? BTW The guy I referred to had no family connection,

 

[xjhawk]

good for him/her. I just happen to remember a couple instances in the Army where a guy screws up badly and to those of us who knew the guy saw him screw up on a daily basis. He is busted and then in a short time is given a second chance and given a promotion while all around jaws were dropping to the floor in surprise. Why? because he was not screwing up anymore and giving a normal effort. But because he has only had a history of screwing up-this new performance is above and beyond for him-in commands eyes warranting a promotion. Just a story.....how it relates? you figure it out. okay...need some help? Once someone in authority likes someone, its seems the world is theirs.

 

[JustaNumber]

What is the solution and what should be done regarding the points you made?

[Mods, please feel free to send this to the general discussions section with a link, as I don't want to step on any toes for thread drift.]

In order to understand the solution, you need to understand the problem better. The entire monetary and banking system's structure is fundamentally flawed. Our current system only started on August 15, 1971, when we went off the gold standard. Since then there has been no requirement for any kind of monetary discipline--they can create as much money as they want (without relying on the limits of a physically limited supply of gold), and this type of system historically always ends in instability and failure. Think about it--does it make sense that the government can just print unlimited wealth and we'll all be living in mansions and driving Ferrari's?

The solution is to return to an asset-backed monetary system, such as a gold standard. This will never happen voluntarily, as there are too many special interests who benefit from the current system. Therefore the monetary system will collapse on its own at some point (just like the thousands of other times this has been tried in human history), to be replaced by sound money at that time. (Can't happen here? That's what they said in 1920's Germany). It is essential that someone who understands the system and is honest about it (like Ron Paul) is in power when this happens. Otherwise what happened in 1930's Germany--the emergence of a strong leader who asks for special "emergency" powers to deal with the crisis--could happen again.

If you want to learn more about how our money system works, read The Creature From Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin. This fully documented and footnoted historical account will blow your mind. The intentional deception regarding how things really work is very troubling.

 

[pilotyip]

good for him/her. .......... you figure it out. okay...need some help? Once someone in authority likes someone, its seems the world is theirs.

That is why companies interview, the people in authority want to find out if they like you. At our place on our rating scale, the thing we look for is "Is he/she trainable?" the second is "Is he/she likable?". No one wants to stuck in the cockpit with an unlikable pilot.

 

[JustaNumber]

That is why companies interview, the people in authority want to find out if they like you. At our place on our rating scale, the thing we look for is "Is he/she trainable?" the second is "Is he/she likable?". No one wants to stuck in the cockpit with an unlikable pilot.

Using those criteria, a starry-eyed 18 year old right out of high school would be your ideal candidate. I think some pilots get frustrated at the fact that many well-qualified, trainable, likable pilots with maturity and experience are bypassed for extremely young and green pilots who just happen to know the right people. It happens over and over and over, people see it happening, and this is what people are complaining about.

 

[suupah]

the pilots daddy was most likely an exec at a fortune 500 company. If you cannot see the disgust in my response....yes there is disgust. Not to mention some of these National companies overlooking more experienced pilots for the less experienced for one reason or another. Oh? You ask what reasons? I am glad you asked. Other than getting interviews and jobs based on past merits it seems internal recommendations mean more than experience, just as race, gender, and the chuck Yeager factor seem to be leaving a fair number of experienced pilots scratching their heads wondering what they can do next.

In case you are wondering I served my country for 14 years as both an enlisted and an officer, four year degree from the U of MN (not on line), 5500 total time, 1500 121 Turbine PIC, earned my time as a flight instructor etc etc etc. But yet no interview, no job to get my A$$ away from Pinnacle airlines.....while I know a lot of FO's with no PIC getting jobs with jet blue, Virgin, etc etc etc.......

I don't know-myby is spelt som ting wong on me reesume?

Bitter....yes
give up....heck no

It is maddening. I am actually surprised there haven't been any legal cases. There is so much blatant discrimination in the hiring practices of major airlines.

I truly hope that all the forecasts over the next couple years come true or this venture of being a pilot truly may end up being a big giant mistake.

 

[pilotyip]

Using those criteria, a starry-eyed 18 year old right out of high school would be your ideal candidate. I think some pilots get frustrated at the fact that many well-qualified, trainable, likable pilots with maturity and experience are bypassed for extremely young and green pilots who just happen to know the right people. It happens over and over and over, people see it happening, and this is what people are complaining about.

And your point is this is not fair? Should there be Federal law to prevent this? Then when you don't get hired because the transgender quota was not filled, will that be fair? I faced age discrimination all through the early part of my civilian career.

 

[JustaNumber]

And your point is this is not fair? Should there be Federal law to prevent this? Then when you don't get hired because the transgender quota was not filled, will that be fair? I faced age discrimination all through the early part of my civilian career.

No, I think they should be able to hire whoever they like--the government has no business forcing them to do anything. The other posters and I are just appealing to the airlines to do the right thing and consider the total resume, not just primarily the "but I know somebody here" references of clearly inferior candidates. Of course this won't change anything, but we can still bi1ch about it!

 

[WMUSIGPI]

the pilots daddy was most likely an exec at a fortune 500 company. If you cannot see the disgust in my response....yes there is disgust. Not to mention some of these National companies overlooking more experienced pilots for the less experienced for one reason or another. Oh? You ask what reasons? I am glad you asked. Other than getting interviews and jobs based on past merits it seems internal recommendations mean more than experience, just as race, gender, and the chuck Yeager factor seem to be leaving a fair number of experienced pilots scratching their heads wondering what they can do next.

In case you are wondering I served my country for 14 years as both an enlisted and an officer, four year degree from the U of MN (not on line), 5500 total time, 1500 121 Turbine PIC, earned my time as a flight instructor etc etc etc. But yet no interview, no job to get my A$$ away from Pinnacle airlines.....while I know a lot of FO's with no PIC getting jobs with jet blue, Virgin, etc etc etc.......

I don't know-myby is spelt som ting wong on me reesume?

Bitter....yes
give up....heck no

Other than serving, I was repeatedly turned down by the military, I am in the very same boat....

I am about ready to just give up and become a professional bum. I'll probably be sickend by the increase in salary though.

 

[Smarta$$]

[Mods, please feel free to send this to the general discussions section with a link, as I don't want to step on any toes for thread drift.]

In order to understand the solution, you need to understand the problem better. The entire monetary and banking system's structure is fundamentally flawed. Our current system only started on August 15, 1971, when we went off the gold standard. Since then there has been no requirement for any kind of monetary discipline--they can create as much money as they want (without relying on the limits of a physically limited supply of gold), and this type of system historically always ends in instability and failure. Think about it--does it make sense that the government can just print unlimited wealth and we'll all be living in mansions and driving Ferrari's?

The solution is to return to an asset-backed monetary system, such as a gold standard. This will never happen voluntarily, as there are too many special interests who benefit from the current system. Therefore the monetary system will collapse on its own at some point (just like the thousands of other times this has been tried in human history), to be replaced by sound money at that time. (Can't happen here? That's what they said in 1920's Germany). It is essential that someone who understands the system and is honest about it (like Ron Paul) is in power when this happens. Otherwise what happened in 1930's Germany--the emergence of a strong leader who asks for special "emergency" powers to deal with the crisis--could happen again.

If you want to learn more about how our money system works, read The Creature From Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin. This fully documented and footnoted historical account will blow your mind. The intentional deception regarding how things really work is very troubling.

Another question. Are you familiar with the documentary "The Money Masters"?

If so, do you regard all or most of this documentary as true and factual, and unbiased? If you haven't, you can watch it on youtube for free. It is very long, and very well documented, and very interesting/alarming.