Pinnacle and Class Envy

[suupah]

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/susan-milligan/2012/04/09/where-class-warfare-really-comes-from

Where 'Class Warfare' Really Comes From

April 9, 2012 RSS Feed Print
It's been one thing after another for Pinnacle Airlines. In February, 2009, a regional flight operated by Colgan Air, which is owned by Pinnacle, crashed in suburban Buffalo, killing 50 people. The accident was, according to the National Transportation Safety Board, due to pilot error, raising questions about why Colgan was using such young and low-paid pilots (particularly copilots) to handle such a life-and-death responsibility. Recently, Pinnacle Air filed for bankruptcy, and the pilots have been having trouble getting paid. The families of the victims may have trouble collecting, too, since the bankruptcy imposes a mandatory stay on remaining lawsuits involving flight 3407. The company, seeking to restructure, is pushing for 5 percent employee pay cuts.

And yet, that didn't stop Pinnacle from giving its executives huge cash windfalls just weeks before the company filed for bankruptcy. As found by some excellent reporting by the Buffalo News's Jerry Zremski, one exec was awarded a $250,000 raise; another was given a $125,000 bump, and—most stunning, after the deadly debacle—its departing CEO was given a $1.7 million consulting contract. Unless he's going to explain how not to do things, that amount is particularly questionable.

[Rick Newman: How Corporate America Is Damning Itself]

Americans were outraged when this sort of practice happened on Wall Street, but the big bucks don't stop there. The attitude seems to be that no matter how badly an executive behaves, or how poorly the company performs, those at the top need never be held accountable—certainly not financially.

If the premise is that people need to be paid more to encourage them to do better at work, why pay the pilots so badly? The average Pinnacle pilot makes $60,000-70,000 a year, but copilots, before they formed a union, were paid as little at $16,000 a year, the News reported. Now, copilots are paid a base salary of $28,000, and Pinnacle wants to cut employee pay even as it is rewarding the executives who presided over a failing company.

[Read the U.S. News debate: Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share in Taxes?]

To those who fret about a simmering "class war": This is where it comes from. It doesn't come from rhetoric, campaign or otherwise, that President Obama or the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee uses. It doesn't even come from Mitt Romney talking about how many Cadillacs his wife owns, or what salary level his NASCAR-fan friends are in. It's not anybody's words; it's this sort of outrageous mismatch, not only of money but of responsibility and accountability. This is a capitalist country, and few begrudge people for making a lot of money after coming up with a creative idea, or brilliantly managing business. What fosters a so-called "class war'' is the arrogance of executives who believe they should be rewarded just for being executives, forcing workers and consumers and taxpayers to pay when their business venture went south. There were many losers in the Pinnacle story, and some of the losses can never be retrieved, as the families of 50 crash victims well know. Someone needs to pay—and it shouldn't be the employees or the victims' families. It should be the executives.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Taking bonuses while asking employees to take a cut in pay. Have the Ethics Classes been cut in Business Schools?

 

[suupah]

Taking bonuses while asking employees to take a cut in pay. Have the Ethics Classes been cut in Business Schools?

Menke to Spanjers "Ethics? Better look that thing up, if that is what the union is going to hit us with, we better be prepared."

 

[kmox29]

Have the Ethics Classes been cut in Business Schools?

I'm not sure about business school, but the fact that Congress recently had to pass an "ethics bill" says everything. Obviously, the leaders of our country cannot act ethically unless they have laws requiring it.

I don't expect anything different from the executive level at many companies. Good luck to all the crews caught up in this mess. You do not deserve it.

 

[doh]

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...[/QUOTE] +1! No net profit equals NO BONUS!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Good luck.

 

[Clutch]

Good luck.. Don't lower the bar.

 

[Flyer1015]

Good luck.. Don't lower the bar.

Pretty much outta their hands now that they're in bankruptcy. It's up to the judge.

 

[xjhawk]

I think they know if its lowered too far it will be a certain death sentence for the company. They should be reminded vigorously by all of us that Pinnacle could not get people to show up for new hire class before all this started.

Here are some more rumors that may have a significant impact on our immediate future.

*That a chief Pilot (DW) once said that if we lost all the saabs, including the Colgan ones we would not have to furlough as we are that short on pilots. I think this is referencing that we could not fill new hire classes and the typical loss rate of 250-300 pilots a year is to be expected. If we are lucky, the 9E 900's will be renegotiated and we will keep them, leaving only the Q's leaving will result in furloughs. But I think that given the fact that in bankruptcy the attrition goes up-just maybe we will not furlough.

**the above scenario does not take into account the number of 200's Delta might want to park when they renegotiate those contracts. Or maybe even some or all 900 loses would truly blow

 

[Clutch]

Keeping all the 900's seems like a fairy tale..

 

[pilotyip]

I think they know if its lowered too far it will be a certain death sentence for the company. They should be reminded vigorously by all of us that Pinnacle could not get people to show up for new hire class before all this started.

Here are some more rumors that may have a significant impact on our immediate future.

*That a chief Pilot (DW) once said that if we lost all the saabs, including the Colgan ones we would not have to furlough as we are that short on pilots. I think this is referencing that we could not fill new hire classes and the typical loss rate of 250-300 pilots a year is to be expected. If we are lucky, the 9E 900's will be renegotiated and we will keep them, leaving only the Q's leaving will result in furloughs. But I think that given the fact that in bankruptcy the attrition goes up-just maybe we will not furlough.

**the above scenario does not take into account the number of 200's Delta might want to park when they renegotiate those contracts. Or maybe even some or all 900 loses would truly blow

all part of the coming 2012 hiring boom, a time where the college degree box will be removed from the application process.

 

[bri5150]

all part of the coming 2012 hiring boom, a time where the college degree box will be removed from the application process.

Now that I have my 1k TPIC, most of the airlines that are hiring don't want it, so it makes sense that when I get done with my 4 year degree, most of the airlines will remove that requirement. In fact, they will probably discourage it because they think you are too smart and will want too much money.

 

[dingo222]

all part of the coming 2012 hiring boom, a time where the college degree box will be removed from the application process.

I'll give it you man, you are one persistant person. Where it is needed almost everywhere now, I see it as being a "discriminating factor" for the top tier carriers in a few years. Just my thoughts

 

[Flyer1015]

I'll give it you man, you are one persistant person. Where it is needed almost everywhere now, I see it as being a "discriminating factor" for the top tier carriers in a few years. Just my thoughts

That's just sad... pilots saying that a college degree is actually a discriminating factor. GMAB. You want to be called a professional, paid like a professional, and treated like a professional, then go make a name for yourself, educate yourself, and get a college degree. Otherwise, be at the same level of respect and treatment (and pay - in my opinion) as high school graduates.

 

[On Your Six]

That's just sad... pilots saying that a college degree is actually a discriminating factor. GMAB. You want to be called a professional, paid like a professional, and treated like a professional, then go make a name for yourself, educate yourself, and get a college degree. Otherwise, be at the same level of respect and treatment (and pay - in my opinion) as high school graduates.

If the job market does get really tight, maybe they will drop the college requirement.


Did you get hired at Spirit? Your profile now says A319/A320. No more PNCL days for you?


Godspeed!

The OYSter

 

[pilotyip]

Otherwise, be at the same level of respect and treatment (and pay - in my opinion) as high school graduates.

yes high grads should be banned from even posting on FI, after all they are so low life. A college degree proves nothing, in fact you can get one without ever going to class, you can get one in useless subject area, and you can graduate with no marketable skills. And no matter how useless you get to check the box in the lower left corner that you have "clolgee dgere". However being accpeted to a major college on campus and taking a hard core subject matter, that is a different story.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

I actually agree. I got my degree in graphic design so I would have something to fall back on. Everyone I have spoken to since graduation is either working in a non related field along side HS grads or trying to get free lance work, while they live in their parents basement. (Sort of like most regional fos)

While I loved my college days. I don't feel it means much. Yeah I know people say it proves you were able to accomplish something, but like someone said in an earlier post, the vast majority of "majors" people chose to study are pretty much useless. I think finance, pre-med/law, engineering, and some of the innovative science programs are the exceptions. My cousin was a history major, he sells used cars. I can probably learn just as much as him by watching a week of the Discovery channel.

When my kids get older, I think I would encourage them to pick a technology school or other specialized training that results in an actual skill they can market. That is unless they choose the professions I listed above.

I think the airlines will get to the point where they will drop the college degree. In fact I know of people with out it at most of the majors today, I even know one with only a GED! Of course they all knew someone who was able to help them get hired.

My 2cents fwiw.

 

[pilotyip]

I actually agree. I got my degree in graphic design so I would have something to fall back on. Everyone I have spoken to since graduation is either working in a non related field along side HS grads or trying to get free lance work, while they live in their parents basement. (Sort of like most regional fos)

While I loved my college days. I don't feel it means much. Yeah I know people say it proves you were able to accomplish something, but like someone said in an earlier post, the vast majority of "majors" people chose to study are pretty much useless. I think finance, pre-med/law, engineering, and some of the innovative science programs are the exceptions. My cousin was a history major, he sells used cars. I can probably learn just as much as him by watching a week of the Discovery channel.

When my kids get older, I think I would encourage them to pick a technology school or other specialized training that results in an actual skill they can market. That is unless they choose the professions I listed above.

I think the airlines will get to the point where they will drop the college degree. In fact I know of people with out it at most of the majors today, I even know one with only a GED! Of course they all knew someone who was able to help them get hired.

My 2cents fwiw.

Thank you, I think you get it. In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative."

Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as "vocational consolation prizes," best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of "shovel ready" jobs for a society that doesn't encourage people to pick up a shovel.

In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a "good job" into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber if you can find one is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we'll all be in need of both.

My brother-in law, owns a Muffler Shop, non-college graduate, two year automotive vo-tech grad, ) lives in a neighborhood with Doctors, Lawyers. In addition, other professionals because he makes over $200K per year. Sends his kids to private schools, lots of vacations, etc. You fly airplanes because you like to fly airplanes, if you want to make money go to a trade school out of high school and run a muffler shop.

 

[livin'thesim]

While I do have a college degree, I think overall most of them are not really worth the expenditure other than as a "work permit".

The vast majority of people who pound the college drum are really just trying to rationalize to themselves that they made a wise decision going tens of thousands in debt in order to take courses for which they no longer member nor can apply the content.

It is like getting a type rating, never flying the airplane, and then waiting twenty years. Are you really qualified in that airplane? Not really.

Most of the bluster is people who have very little social leverage looking for a reason - any reason - to feel juuuust a little better than someone else.

The other really humorous part is that college is just a consumer product. Colleges have long since stopped being truly intellectually rigorous, having substituted instead mind-softening indoctrination and edutainment with low intellectual nutritional value.

I have lost count of the times that I have seen college graduates slaughter English, punctuation, and math in common use. The typical college grad-braggart is like an intellectual Al Bundy - endlessly trying to trade on high school football glory, even though he is now a balding shoe salesman with a paunchy gut.

If you can no longer throw the football that far, and if you can no longer run that fast, perhaps you should maintain a dignified silence on the topic.

Likewise, if you could not produce a test score in the upper 80th percentile on the subject matter comprising your degree, then you are that same fat, aging athlete in the intellectual sense.

The majority of college programs right now are overpriced social-status products. The fact that nearly anyone can get a four year degree right now should remove all doubt. It's like getting a part 91 type rating in a transport category jet through a university aviation program. It may legally be the same type that a real pic gets, but everyone knows that effectively, it is not.

If we, as a society, insist on making our young people spend four whole years sequestered away from true personal productivity, busying themselves with filling out paperwork masquerading as educational accomplishment, so be it.

But the least we can do is charge them a fair price for such a product, rather than the current cost paradigm that creates years of servitude to the lending industry.

Google the phrase "college debt bubble" to see what is in store for us next.

 

[livin'thesim]

Flyer 1015:

It is interesting to see you admit that you regard yourself as being only as good as your college degree. Come on man, don't get so down on yourself.

 

[pilotyip]

While I do have a college degree, I think overall most of them are not really worth the expenditure other than as a "work permit"....Google the phrase "college debt bubble" to see what is in store for us next.

You are the man; you get the big picture. The college degree by itself means nothing. Anyone can get one, pay your fee get your B. Now a degree from a top notch school, it a subject matter that leads to a good job, that is something different and something many people would have trouble achieving. As advice I gave to a young man some years back, after his first year of college he was accepted into the Army's WO flying program. He asked me should he stay and finish college or take the flight training. I told him you do college any time, but an opportunity to fly in the military is hard to come by, go for it and never look back. Basically few people get accepted to military flight programs, everyone can get into a college somewhere.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ok, I agree with what you are all saying. The debt thing is totally out of control on college student loans. If anything, these days, people aren't finding a job with their college degrees, or are told that a masters is necessary before they can really be employable in their field. It's a money sucking proposition that preys on students and others hopeful to make a good living. Now I don't have a problem with that "system" as long as there are jobs to be had, amd people are able to pay of your school debt and make good money down the road. Today, that's no longer true. I chose a professional degree (engineering) and got some work experience in that so I think it should be a good backup. However, I can name plenty of engineers (or laywers) who are sitting unemployed or under-employed.


So, today in 2012, is it really worth it? By looking at employable statistics, the answer would lean towards 'no.'

 

[JustaNumber]

So, today in 2012, is it [a college education] really worth it? By looking at employable statistics, the answer would lean towards 'no.'

"lean" is not the right word.

Let's look at the statistics. Only 40% of people who enter college will graduate within 6 years. But assuming you're one of the diligent, only 56% of graduates will find ANY kind of work within a year. And 50% of those jobs did not require a college degree to begin with. So overall the math says you have approximately a 15% chance of college being worth it, 25% if you do everything right. Or put another way, there is a 75-85% chance that the money spent on college will be flushed down the drain.

The reason for this situation (that affects all pilots) is a subject that will marginalize you if you talk about it, but I'll risk my post and this thread being deleted anyway. The whole cause is that there is a literally unlimited supply of borrowed and printed money being indiscriminately thrown at education, causing almost everyone to attempt college, yet there is actually a shrinking supply of jobs in the U.S. The reason for the shrinking supply of jobs has to do with the unsustainably high value of the dollar compared to the other world currencies, making Chinese workers much more in demand than American workers. The reason for the unreasonably high value of the dollar has to do with the fact that all world oil sales are required to be transacted in dollars (by explicit political agreements), necessarily creating artificial worldwide demand for dollars. This is also the reason the U.S. can get away with the unlimited money printing that fuels the college debt bubble.

These economic and political forces are what everyone really should be studying, because they affect us more than most people imagine.

 

[pilotyip]

All these lead to the question "Why pursue a 4yr degree in Aviation Technology?" and build up $100K in debt. Going to a 4 yr. college out of high school is not the only way to get your degree. The degree is not needed until the final step for the vaulted interview at DAL, FedEx, and Alaska. Go to school part time, cheap community college, get a job start building time, do on line courses, or even find an employer who has tuition assistance. Remember you are not doing this to learn much, you are doing it to check a box on the final step.

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We hired a 20 year old pilot a few years ago, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt. at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is started as a DA-20 F/O at $33K, he was a DA-20 Capt. the day he turned 23, he had his degree completed by the time he was 26 years old. At that time he should had 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He had his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management that our company helped pay for through the tuition assistance program, and no debt.

He was just hired at a Fortune 5 company as a Corp pilot.

 

[Full of LUV]

"lean" is not the right word.

Let's look at the statistics. Only 40% of people who enter college will graduate within 6 years. But assuming you're one of the diligent, only 56% of graduates will find ANY kind of work within a year. And 50% of those jobs did not require a college degree to begin with. So overall the math says you have approximately a 15% chance of college being worth it, 25% if you do everything right. Or put another way, there is a 75-85% chance that the money spent on college will be flushed down the drain.

The reason for this situation (that affects all pilots) is a subject that will marginalize you if you talk about it, but I'll risk my post and this thread being deleted anyway. The whole cause is that there is a literally unlimited supply of borrowed and printed money being indiscriminately thrown at education, causing almost everyone to attempt college, yet there is actually a shrinking supply of jobs in the U.S. The reason for the shrinking supply of jobs has to do with the unsustainably high value of the dollar compared to the other world currencies, making Chinese workers much more in demand than American workers. The reason for the unreasonably high value of the dollar has to do with the fact that all world oil sales are required to be transacted in dollars (by explicit political agreements), necessarily creating artificial worldwide demand for dollars. This is also the reason the U.S. can get away with the unlimited money printing that fuels the college debt bubble.

These economic and political forces are what everyone really should be studying, because they affect us more than most people imagine.

Totally agree that education debt is sprialling out of control, no one polices higher ed costs. In this last decade have you heard of any college profs taking a pay cut? I know, proposterous.

But your logic above is not congruent. You state that printing money by the US is out of control, yet in the same paragraph you claim that the value of the US $ is being held too high..... well if that were so, wouldn't printing more $ be the answer to devaluing the currency? Afterall, someday a painful lesson of inflation will be the only way the US willl ever be able to repay $15 trillion and growing in debt.
LUV

 

[JustaNumber]

But your logic above is not congruent. You state that printing money by the US is out of control, yet in the same paragraph you claim that the value of the US $ is being held too high..... well if that were so, wouldn't printing more $ be the answer to devaluing the currency? Afterall, someday a painful lesson of inflation will be the only way the US willl ever be able to repay $15 trillion and growing in debt.
LUV

Read the book Currency Wars by James Rickards. Your logic initially sounds correct, but in reality all currencies are being devalued concurrently (we're not the only ones with a printing press!) It's just that the U.S. started out with the most overvalued currency in the early '70's, and we've maintained that supremacy, even though the whole world is in a race to the bottom to devalue in order to try to win more manufacturing jobs. This explains the apparent contradiction between our "strong dollar policy" and our obvious devaluating actions.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

All these lead to the question "Why pursue a 4yr degree in Aviation Technology?" and build up $100K in debt. Going to a 4 yr. college out of high school is not the only way to get your degree. The degree is not needed until the final step for the vaulted interview at DAL, FedEx, and Alaska. Go to school part time, cheap community college, get a job start building time, do on line courses, or even find an employer who has tuition assistance. Remember you are not doing this to learn much, you are doing it to check a box on the final step.

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We hired a 20 year old pilot a few years ago, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt. at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is started as a DA-20 F/O at $33K, he was a DA-20 Capt. the day he turned 23, he had his degree completed by the time he was 26 years old. At that time he should had 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He had his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management that our company helped pay for through the tuition assistance program, and no debt.

He was just hired at a Fortune 5 company as a Corp pilot.

What kind of internal connections and hints did this wonder pilot have? Or did he basically hit the early level of powerball lotto?

 

[Smarta$$]

Read the book Currency Wars by James Rickards. Your logic initially sounds correct, but in reality all currencies are being devalued concurrently (we're not the only ones with a printing press!) It's just that the U.S. started out with the most overvalued currency in the early '70's, and we've maintained that supremacy, even though the whole world is in a race to the bottom to devalue in order to try to win more manufacturing jobs. This explains the apparent contradiction between our "strong dollar policy" and our obvious devaluating actions.

What is the solution and what should be done regarding the points you made?

 

[xjhawk]

the pilots daddy was most likely an exec at a fortune 500 company. If you cannot see the disgust in my response....yes there is disgust. Not to mention some of these National companies overlooking more experienced pilots for the less experienced for one reason or another. Oh? You ask what reasons? I am glad you asked. Other than getting interviews and jobs based on past merits it seems internal recommendations mean more than experience, just as race, gender, and the chuck Yeager factor seem to be leaving a fair number of experienced pilots scratching their heads wondering what they can do next.

In case you are wondering I served my country for 14 years as both an enlisted and an officer, four year degree from the U of MN (not on line), 5500 total time, 1500 121 Turbine PIC, earned my time as a flight instructor etc etc etc. But yet no interview, no job to get my A$$ away from Pinnacle airlines.....while I know a lot of FO's with no PIC getting jobs with jet blue, Virgin, etc etc etc.......

I don't know-myby is spelt som ting wong on me reesume?

Bitter....yes
give up....heck no

 

[pilotyip]

the pilots daddy was most likely an exec at a fortune 500 company. If you cannot see the disgust in my response....yes there is disgust. Not to mention some of these National companies overlooking more experienced pilots for the less experienced for one reason or another. Oh? You ask what reasons? I am glad you asked. Other than getting interviews and jobs based on past merits it seems internal recommendations mean more than experience, just as race, gender, and the chuck Yeager factor seem to be leaving a fair number of experienced pilots scratching their heads wondering what they can do next.

In case you are wondering I served my country for 14 years as both an enlisted and an officer, four year degree from the U of MN (not on line), 5500 total time, 1500 121 Turbine PIC, earned my time as a flight instructor etc etc etc. But yet no interview, no job to get my A$$ away from Pinnacle airlines.....while I know a lot of FO's with no PIC getting jobs with jet blue, Virgin, etc etc etc.......

I don't know-myby is spelt som ting wong on me reesume?

Bitter....yes
give up....heck no

How do you really feel? BTW The guy I referred to had no family connection,