Pinnacle 1113 ruling set for this Thursday

[FOrever85]

Really? I can't wait to fly with people that have more experience then me. I loved it when I was a new hire. I was in the top 10% before the SLI. You would not hire me or want to fly with me? I pose a risk? Again, I can't wait to fly with someone 20 years older and more experience. I dream of it. To learn more and watch and work with somebody that has twice the hours would be awsome. Maybe you should check your ego and relax. No need to prove yourself in the 121 CRM world. It is much safer and fun. Good Luck!

This guy just summed up 9e in one sentence! And don't forget spineless.

The writing on the wall was back when I got hired in 03. Do the math.

Really???
2003 when you went from 40 crjs to 124. Yeah those must have been some telling times. Or did your really reliable "source" at delta tell you this was going to happen back in 2003 you know the same one that doesn't understand scope language and thinks there are 90 900's coming.

 

[Lear70]

Why be mad about a gamble the TSA MEC made and lost? Their owner made it clear he wanted an operation at a certain wage set. If you don't accept it, are you surprised he started GoJets? I'll agree that initially it was a shady place, but GoJets today in 2012 is like ANY other regional out there. Today, GoJets hasn't done anything another regional didn't do already. You write all this, but where was the uproar when 9E received 125 CRJ-200s while mainline DC9s and 727s were parked post 9/11?

Whoa there a second, hoss.

If you'll remember, PCL received their 125 CRJ contract BEFORE 9/11. I know, because I was hired as a street Captain in May of 2011 after my 727 operator had ITS flying taken by FedEx (who hired none of us).

We were hired because of all the CRJ's coming and the stupidity of the training department teaching an automated sim course to Turboprop guys who had never seen a jet and the Saab CA to CRJ CA course had a 76% failure rate (watched one guy I was sitting seat support with roll the airplane upside down on his rate ride while I'm screaming RUDDER!! at him).

2011 forced furloughs at mainline, very true, but the CRJ delivery schedule was set long before then.

Where was the uproar when Pinnacle received RJs that were actually suppose to go to another RJ operator, but mainline decided to use the planes as carrots?

Big difference in my mind, amigo, between shifting deliveries somewhere and deliberately closing the doors on an operation through a legal set of maneuvers called Bankruptcy just to put replacement airplanes somewhere else, thus lowering overall costs while putting thousands of people on the streets (including all the other employees).

This is a dark time, just when it looked like the industry was recovering, and it's a sh*tty game for DL to play just to save a buck at the expense of careers that may, in many instances, never be rebuilt. If Delta were in dire straits and HAD to do it, that would be one thing, but to do it while profitable at the expense of so many people... just goes back to those first aviators decades ago who sold out the first bit of Scope.

P.S. Congrats on VX, didn't know you'd bailed. Lost touch with so many from there, hoping 9E makes it through...

 

[Flyer1015]

Whoa there a second, hoss.

If you'll remember, PCL received their 125 CRJ contract BEFORE 9/11. I know, because I was hired as a street Captain in May of 2011 after my 727 operator had ITS flying taken by FedEx (who hired none of us).

We were hired because of all the CRJ's coming and the stupidity of the training department teaching an automated sim course to Turboprop guys who had never seen a jet and the Saab CA to CRJ CA course had a 76% failure rate (watched one guy I was sitting seat support with roll the airplane upside down on his rate ride while I'm screaming RUDDER!! at him).

2011 forced furloughs at mainline, very true, but the CRJ delivery schedule was set long before then.


Big difference in my mind, amigo, between shifting deliveries somewhere and deliberately closing the doors on an operation through a legal set of maneuvers called Bankruptcy just to put replacement airplanes somewhere else, thus lowering overall costs while putting thousands of people on the streets (including all the other employees).

This is a dark time, just when it looked like the industry was recovering, and it's a sh*tty game for DL to play just to save a buck at the expense of careers that may, in many instances, never be rebuilt. If Delta were in dire straits and HAD to do it, that would be one thing, but to do it while profitable at the expense of so many people... just goes back to those first aviators decades ago who sold out the first bit of Scope.

P.S. Congrats on VX, didn't know you'd bailed. Lost touch with so many from there, hoping 9E makes it through...

Two references to 2011, I assume you meant 2001. Yes the first CRJ came in 2000 but the overwhelming majority followed post 9/11 and directly replaced 727 and DC9 flying. Whether or not 9/11 had to do with the fleet plan, I'm not sure, but the fact remains that NWA parked the domestic 727s and Dc9s while expanding CRJs.

You are correct about what's happening. But aren't regionals suppose to be cheap contract feed? If you have a super senior airline, won't it have higher costs than a relatively new airline with lower longevity costs? The regionals didn't have this problem in the 80s and 90s where people came in, got their time, and moved on. Now regionals are more senior because of less chances of moving up, and people wanting to hang on instead of jumping for what they think is uncertainty.

In any case, does Delta owe anything for loyalty for regionals? If it's contract feed, don't they owe it to their shareholders to do the same job safely at a lower cost if possible? It sucks for us as pilots, but Delta can have GoJets do it cheaper than Mesaba, then yes that's what they will do. Comair was arguably the most senior regional airline and Delta closed them up and shifted their flying. Pinnacle wasn't that senior but with the Mesaba merger, it too has become very senior. New entrants like Silver Airways and GoJets represent the lower cost reigonals and can do the same job safely at a cheaper rate.

This was the kinda BS that was coming, so I applied everywhere and jumped at the first opportunity. I've heard that 500 have quit for 2012 so far.

 

[Flyer1015]

Lear70, wanted to send a PM but your box is full.

 

[profit]

Big difference in my mind, amigo, between shifting deliveries somewhere and deliberately closing the doors on an operation through a legal set of maneuvers called Bankruptcy just to put replacement airplanes somewhere else, thus lowering overall costs while putting thousands of people on the streets (including all the other employees).

This is a dark time, just when it looked like the industry was recovering, and it's a sh*tty game for DL to play just to save a buck at the expense of careers that may, in many instances, never be rebuilt. If Delta were in dire straits and HAD to do it, that would be one thing, but to do it while profitable at the expense of so many people... just goes back to those first aviators decades ago who sold out the first bit of Scope.

Well said!

 

[1.3XVso]

Really???
2003 when you went from 40 crjs to 124. Yeah those must have been some telling times. Or did your really reliable "source" at delta tell you this was going to happen back in 2003 you know the same one that doesn't understand scope language and thinks there are 90 900's coming.

Yeah growing times you are correct but after a year and a half our 99 contract was amendable and then the party started. Also I have no relation with these idiots who are having wet dreams with those 900.

 

[CRJ puppy]

well said!

+223!!!

 

[Lear70]

Two references to 2011, I assume you meant 2001. Yes the first CRJ came in 2000 but the overwhelming majority followed post 9/11 and directly replaced 727 and DC9 flying. Whether or not 9/11 had to do with the fleet plan, I'm not sure, but the fact remains that NWA parked the domestic 727s and Dc9s while expanding CRJs.

Yes, I meant 2001. Sorry, I drink and post sometimes... or just don't proofread what I write.

The 50-seaters didn't replace ALL the 727 and DC-9 flying. The 727's were retired on-schedule, 9/11 nor the 50-seaters advanced that timeline whatsoever. The DC-9 flying is more complicated, and SOME of those -9's were replaced by 50 seaters into smaller markets (3 DC-9's replaced by 2 50-seaters, one of which flew the stand-up / EMO, and one DC-9 left on the route such as Duluth, Bozeman, etc that didn't support that many seats). However, a good portion of that flying was retired EARLY after 9/11, partly because airline bookings (and, thus profit) took a dive and also in part because of an expensive bulkhead A.D. on the older -9's (the -50's I think, but don't quote me) was coming due.

They were going to retire a LOT more DC-9's early, but bookings improved and they decided to do the A.D.'s on the larger -9's. Point is, PART of the -9's going away was driven by replacement with 50-seaters, but a larger portion was not, and was replaced with Airbus deliveries about the same time frame.

You are correct about what's happening. But aren't regionals suppose to be cheap contract feed? If you have a super senior airline, won't it have higher costs than a relatively new airline with lower longevity costs?

Of course they are, but that doesn't mean you constantly use new up-start regionals, bankruptcy, and shutdown, as a long-term CASM strategy for Mainline. Even at the highest longevity scale, the labor piece of a Regional such as PCL is roughly 1/3 of mainline's overall Labor Cost, and about 1/2 what a DC-9 / Airbus runs on a Labor CASM.

The regionals didn't have this problem in the 80s and 90s where people came in, got their time, and moved on. Now regionals are more senior because of less chances of moving up, and people wanting to hang on instead of jumping for what they think is uncertainty.

I think the people who want to move on will always move on to a Major carrier from a Regional. It's whether they'll move to permanent ex-pat flying like Emirates or a fringe carrier right on the edge like you did with VX or even, arguably, JB (although I think they have one of the best products in the industry). However, the rest of what you wrote is spot-on.

In any case, does Delta owe anything for loyalty for regionals? If it's contract feed, don't they owe it to their shareholders to do the same job safely at a lower cost if possible?

I would argue that their obligation to honor their feed contract and protect the employment of people who worked for them in good faith through the feeder company would be just as great as their obligation to the shareholders, but this is more of an ethical argument and we know about airline management and ethics.

It sucks for us as pilots, but Delta can have GoJets do it cheaper than Mesaba, then yes that's what they will do. Comair was arguably the most senior regional airline and Delta closed them up and shifted their flying. Pinnacle wasn't that senior but with the Mesaba merger, it too has become very senior. New entrants like Silver Airways and GoJets represent the lower cost reigonals and can do the same job safely at a cheaper rate.

I have no argument with a company taking a contract thats EXPIRING and using it to cost-shop for a lower bidder OR to offer a NEW contract to the lowest bidder. That's just the way business works.

But to use the threat of liquidation bankruptcy and career loss to obtain a better feed contract when they financially don't need to do so to continue profitably is morally reprehensible.

This was the kinda BS that was coming, so I applied everywhere and jumped at the first opportunity. I've heard that 500 have quit for 2012 so far.

Doesn't shock me, and good for you to have the foresight to jump. I've made one or two similar career moves in my lifetime and they seemed to have worked out fine thus far. The point is that people shouldn't HAVE to go through this crap every 3-5 years at one Regional or another just so mainline carriers can play one group off another.

What a mess this industry has become since I was a kid.

By the way, cleaned out my PM box, sorry.