Pilotyip not anti-college

[pilotyip]

To continue the discussion of the merits of the college degree. It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing cold is further from the truth. The country needs all the college educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university and then pursue a career in that area of study. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies from Bumble Bee State just because FedEx requires a degree to apply. However this is not an education forum, this is an aviation forum. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry, in that case because you are not going to use your degree do it on the side. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with UPS, then that prospective pilot should go to college. Air Inc advertises that 177 airlines and assorted aviation companies are recruiting right now, I only see five that make the degree a showstopper. My assertion that runs contrary to the ‘College is a Must” crowd, is that to be competitive for the other 172 places the degree is not necessary. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$150K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. In fact, going to college will delay a move into a career position. If you want to be a pilot, you fly airplanes. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position without a degree. But then my focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane. Others out there may feel the same motivation I do.

 

[Junkflyer]

It used to be about the joy of flying. Management seems to do everything in its power to take that away. Now its about earning a living. Speaking as one without a degree, I would get one if I had it to do over again. Its a show stopper at the better places to work nowdays.(Fed Ex/Ups etc.)

 

[cforst513]

let's say Jimbo Pilot loses his medical. what then? or what if you become disenfranchised with flying? why not have a degree to fall back on in case this happens and you're still at the age where you should/have to work? 30 years old and you get some medical disorder and can't fly, you're getting laid off as a F.O. at a regional, you probably don't have a bunch of money to go back to school, so now what? Get a degree when you're young, get the college experience, become a more well-rounded individual.

and don't get a degree in aviation, for christ's sake.

 

[Lead Sled]

It used to be about the joy of flying. Management seems to do everything in its power to take that away. Now its about earning a living. Speaking as one without a degree, I would get one if I had it to do over again. Its a show stopper at the better places to work nowdays.(Fed Ex/Ups etc.)

It can also be a show stopper at many corporate operations as well. I agree that you "might" be able to get buy without one, but in today's job market, when you're essentially just another sheet in a tall pile of resumes, do you really want to be one of the few without a degree? Don't make it easy for those who are trying to whittle down the stack of resumes to file yours in the round file. And we haven't even mentioned the wisdom of having something to fall back on just in case...

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

...and don't get a degree in aviation...

No one needs a degree in Airplane Flying oops I meant Aviation. What a waste of time and $$$.

'Sled

 

[MarineGrunt]

No one needs a degree in Airplane Flying oops I meant Aviation. What a waste of time and $$$.

'Sled

Absolutely by FAR the STUPIDEST thing I have ever done. Without question.

 

[landlover]

The subject you focus on for an undergraduate dregree isn't important in any field. I know many people that work far outside what they majored in, in college. For example my parents, mom majored in textile design. Now she is a wardrobe supervisor at an entertainment company. Good ole pop dropped outta school in the 9th grade, owns a few street food vendors. A BS is basically a high school diploma nowwa days, if one decides to persue a MS or PHD thats when the real focus begins, dont fool youself thinking you wasted your time in college. You have a degree and thats what you have. Lets say you took management in college. What then? you'd still be a pilot with a mgmt degree. At least you can say you actually use your degree.

 

[cforst513]

my father got his degree in wildlife management and he's a supervisor at a post office. don't just focus on the degree. think of the intangibles as well. there's so much more associated with college than just getting a degree. i myself was opened up to a world of other ideas, cultures, and people that i can guarantee you i wouldn't have experienced w/out college.

 

[A Squared]

The subject you focus on for an undergraduate dregree isn't important in any field.

Ummmm, right. Try going out and getting a job as an engineer without an engineering degree.

For example my parents, mom majored in textile design. Now she is a wardrobe supervisor at an entertainment company.

Hmmm, you see no connection at all between her education and career?

 

[landlover]

Ummmm, right. Try going out and getting a job as an engineer without an engineering degree.



Hmmm, you see no connection at all between her education and career?

I know for a fact that one can become an engineer without a college degree all together. My best friend that was an illegal immegrant from Bogata Colombia. Damn right he walked through the desert from mexico when he was 5 f-ing years old, now is a mechanical engineer and he never graduated from college. And my mom is a manager thats it, her job before this was manager a damn CVS.

 

[cforst513]

I know for a fact that one can become an engineer without a college degree all together. My best friend that was an illegal immegrant from Bogata Colombia. dang right he walked through the desert from mexico when he was 5 f-ing years old, now is a mechanical engineer and he never graduated from college. And my mom is a manager thats it, her job before this was manager a dang CVS.

Is he still illegal or did he become a US citizen?

 

[A Squared]

I know for a fact that one can become an engineer without a college degree all together. My best friend that was an illegal immegrant from Bogata Colombia. dang right he walked through the desert from mexico when he was 5 f-ing years old, now is a mechanical engineer and he never graduated from college.

Uhhhhuh, good for your friend, you say he never graduated from college. I'd say chances are good that he *did* attend some college, and studied Mecanical engineering, if he is in fact employed as a mechanical engineer. The term "engineer" get's bandied about fairly loosely these days . (domestic engineer, petroleum transfer engineer, etc.) If he truly is a no $hit, mechanical engineer, he either has some formal education engineering, or he is a very rare and exceptional case. Anyway, you seem to have completely missed the point.
My point was not that it is impossible to become an engineer without an engineering degree, my point was that your statement;

The subject you focus on for an undergraduate dregree isn't important in any field.

is bull$hit, there are many fields in which hte focus of your undergraduate degree *is* important, engineering is one of them. That should be pretty obvious, and it is not disproven by mentioning one person who may or may not be an exception.

 

[Goose Egg]

The subject you focus on for an undergraduate dregree isn't important in any field... A BS is basically a high school diploma nowwa days, if one decides to persue a MS or PHD thats when the real focus begins.

The above stated is not always the case, but there is some truth to it. As a current grad student, I can verify that advanced courswork is much more focused and intensive than undergraduate work, (i.e. I actually have to put effort into things now) although the faculty isn't nearly as adversarial as before.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the BS is the new high school diploma, but there are indeed a very few select fields where one must major in the specific field that they desire to work in, i.e. accounting, engineering, etc. Take our profession for example; we work in a very technical field, yet a degree in aviation (or a degree at all, by certain individuals' estimation) is not required per se. Another example: A pre-med degree is not required to be admitted to medical school.

Undergraduate degrees, on the whole, are definitely limiting, at least from my perspective of a graduate student in a marketable field that has been clued-in to what I could possibly do with my education.

In any case, I do think it is a wise idea to get at least a BS. Sure, you may be able to secure employment as a pilot with no degree, but the way that competition is becoming, I'd certainly want every advantage I could possibly posess. "Luck favors the prepared."

Nevermind the fact that learning only to fly airplanes is so narrowly focused that it borders on prosaic. I simply couldn't stand knowing that little about life.

-Goose

 

[landlover]

Uhhhhuh, good for your friend, you say he never graduated from college. I'd say chances are good that he *did* attend some college, and studied Mecanical engineering, if he is in fact employed as a mechanical engineer. The term "engineer" get's bandied about fairly loosely these days . (domestic engineer, petroleum transfer engineer, etc.) If he truly is a no $hit, mechanical engineer, he either has some formal education engineering, or he is a very rare and exceptional case. Anyway, you seem to have completely missed the point.
My point was not that it is impossible to become an engineer without an engineering degree, my point was that your statement; is bull$hit, there are many fields in which hte focus of your undergraduate degree *is* important, engineering is one of them. That should be pretty obvious, and it is not disproven by mentioning one person who may or may not be an exception.

I see your point now Asquared, and yes my friend is an amazing individual. Yes he is a no sh!t mech.engineer. Just proves to all, that there really isn't a status quo for much these days.

 

[SweatHog]

In the field of Mechanical Engineering, the ONLY substitute for the "Degree" is a "PE". That's "Registered Professional Engineer". To get this licence requires one to get enough knowledge to pass the tests to get the licence. Guess what? That knowledge will not be got in high school. You take (many) college courses. You don't need the degree....BUT.. you WILL have to pass the test.

Any serious ME with a degree, will also get the PE if he wants to cover his bases.

Many years ago, having a college degree, was an indication that you had the apptitude for learning. That was the key. You could be a B-17 pilot...even with a history degree. Obviously there will be exeptions to any rule.

 

[smellthejeta]

pilotyip talks about show stoppers, but what I didn't seem him address is "competitive minimums." When an airline posts a minimum requirement, it is just that... just because they don't require a degree does not mean that you will be competitive without a degree. In another thread, he posted some statistics about how many people at about six different airlines DON'T have a degree. There were some assertions made (by him IIRC) that it might be EASIER to be hired out of the pool of applicants with no degree because there are fewer of those applicants compared to the ratio of people hired with a degree vs the number of degreed applicants applying. However, the major issue I took with that but never voiced is that there is no proof that degreed and non-degreed applicants come out of separate pools.

 

[smellthejeta]

let's say Jimbo Pilot loses his medical. what then? or what if you become disenfranchised with flying? why not have a degree to fall back on in case this happens and you're still at the age where you should/have to work? 30 years old and you get some medical disorder and can't fly, you're getting laid off as a F.O. at a regional, you probably don't have a bunch of money to go back to school, so now what? Get a degree when you're young, get the college experience, become a more well-rounded individual.

and don't get a degree in aviation, for christ's sake.

So what is the fallback value of a degree you haven't used in 20 years? It's a legit question that I'm facing now. Okay, mine is only a couple of years old, remedied by some "refresher" training, but it's still an issue nonetheless. I'm of the opinion that the largest fallback value is getting into a graduate program, unless you've somehow been able to maintain your degree skills along the way.

 

[smellthejeta]

I know for a fact that one can become an engineer without a college degree all together. My best friend that was an illegal immegrant from Bogata Colombia. dang right he walked through the desert from mexico when he was 5 f-ing years old, now is a mechanical engineer and he never graduated from college. And my mom is a manager thats it, her job before this was manager a dang CVS.

There are cases of individuals never graduating from college yet becoming very successful financially. You did say that your friend never graduated from college... but did he attend college or get some other formal training? It MIGHT be possible that they hired him before he completed his degree requirements, had a co-op or internship, and then they picked him up early. But if he walked out of high school on his 18th bday and into that job, well, I want to know how.

 

[aeronautic1]

College Boy

My father was a B17 and B29 instructor. Hired by Continental into left seat of DC3. Called back to fly C54 in the Berlin Airlift. Returned to Continental in the CV340. Flew for Continental for 34 years in DC6, DC7, Viscounts, 320C (MACV), 727 (AIR MIC), 747 and retiring in DC10 landing at HNL a 1/2 hour before his 60th birthday. He has a high school education. His adage is "son, you don't have to be too smart to be an airline pilot."

A piece of paper does not a pilot make.

 

[Lead Sled]

So what is the fallback value of a degree you haven't used in 20 years?

It's definately a rough position to find yourself in. But I'll throw out the question - let's assume that you're 52 years old, just lost your medical and you've found yourself having to look for work. That would be a tough situation under any circumstances, but would you rather start pounding the pavement with an unused 30 year old bachelor's degree or with nothing more than a high school diploma or GED? I don't know about you, but I'm glad I've got my business degree. By the way, as a flight department manager and chief pilot, I guess that I have used it all along.

FWIW, I had my ATP and nearly 4,000 hours before I graduated from college. From start to finish it took me nearly ten years to finish up. A big chunk of my total study time was spent in the back of a Cessna 411 parked at the Grand Canyon airport while my passengers were on tour buses.

I don't have a lot of patience when guys tell me that they can't do it. I did it, it just took 10 years. Along the way I got married, started a family, and paid for all of my ratings. When I was finished it was all paid for - no student loans were involved. I'm not all that smart, so if I can figure it out it ought to be easy for the rest of you.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

My father was a B17 and B29 instructor. Hired by Continental into left seat of DC3. Called back to fly C54 in the Berlin Airlift. Returned to Continental in the CV340. Flew for Continental for 34 years in DC6, DC7, Viscounts, 320C (MACV), 727 (AIR MIC), 747 and retiring in DC10 landing at HNL a 1/2 hour before his 60th birthday. He has a high school education. His adage is "son, you don't have to be too smart to be an airline pilot."

A piece of paper does not a pilot make.

Those days are long gone.

'Sled

 

[smellthejeta]

It's definately a rough position to find yourself in. But I'll throw out the question - let's assume that you're 52 years old, just lost your medical and you've found yourself having to look for work. That would be a tough situation under any circumstances, but would you rather start pounding the pavement with an unused 30 year old bachelor's degree or with nothing more than a high school diploma or GED? I don't know about you, but I'm glad I've got my business degree. By the way, as a flight department manager and chief pilot, I guess that I have used it all along.

I wasn't saying the value of it is worthless, just asking what it is. That's coming from somebody who is faced with the strong possibility of losing/not getting his medical btw, and I didn't graduate from college yesterday (or last last semester) either. Let's just say I'm happy to be facing only TWO more years of college (masters or an A&P or something like that) as opposed to FOUR years of college. The older I get, the less I look forward to four years of college. The only difference is that my college is an engineering/technical skill, and not of the softer side where there is as much to "forget."

FWIW, I had my ATP and nearly 4,000 hours before I graduated from college. From start to finish it took me nearly ten years to finish up. A big chunk of my total study time was spent in the back of a Cessna 411 parked at the Grand Canyon airport while my passengers were on tour buses.

I know a guy who has his PhD... he earned it sitting in the FBO. He only flies part time now and works his PhD job full time...

I don't have a lot of patience when guys tell me that they can't do it. I did it, it just took 10 years. Along the way I got married, started a family, and paid for all of my ratings. When I was finished it was all paid for - no student loans were involved. I'm not all that smart, so if I can figure it out it ought to be easy for the rest of you.
'Sled

The more and more I listen to pilotyip, the less and less I disagree with what he says. Personally, I think that taking out a bunch of loans and graduating neck deep in debt is a very dumb way to go. Yes, it would be nice to end up on a seniority list as fast as possible, but a more practical way to do things is what he suggests and how you did it -- go to school on the side an fly full time. As you also imply, it's hard work and sweat that gets you through life, not the brains.

 

[cforst513]

My father was a B17 and B29 instructor. Hired by Continental into left seat of DC3. Called back to fly C54 in the Berlin Airlift. Returned to Continental in the CV340. Flew for Continental for 34 years in DC6, DC7, Viscounts, 320C (MACV), 727 (AIR MIC), 747 and retiring in DC10 landing at HNL a 1/2 hour before his 60th birthday. He has a high school education. His adage is "son, you don't have to be too smart to be an airline pilot."

A piece of paper does not a pilot make.

dude, that was a different era. just like lead sled said, those days are long gone. it's like trying to compare the 1913 yankees to the 2005 yankees. it's apples and oranges. your father lived in a different time than we do today. it seems like he flew back when this profession was still a prestigious one. i mean, he was an INSTRUCTOR on B29's and B17's? that's old school. impressive list, though. i bet he has some pretty sweet stories!

 

[Lead Sled]

Personally, I think that taking out a bunch of loans and graduating neck deep in debt is a very dumb way to go. Yes, it would be nice to end up on a seniority list as fast as possible, but a more practical way to do things is what he suggests and how you did it -- go to school on the side an fly full time. As you also imply, it's hard work and sweat that gets you through life, not the brains.

The problem I have with what he is saying is that some might take it to mean that they really don't need the advanced education. They most certainly do - unless they're willing to gamble that they will NEVER loose their medical, NEVER get furloughed, NEVER get fired, NEVER have any number of thing happen in their lives that would result in their being out on the street looking for a way to support themselves and their families. I'm not really that old and I've seen it time after time after time and not only in aviation - my oldest daughter's father-in-law had a "life-time" job making very good money. Yada, yada, yada, he ended up being unemployed and had one heck of a time finding someone to hire a 50's something with just a high school education who was willing to pay him more than $8 to $10 per hour.

Some people still haven't gotten it into their heads that the "glory" days of airline pilot salaries are probably long over. No one understands more than me the "compulsion" or lure that aviation can have on a person - I've got it as bad as the next guy. I shake my head when I hear guys talk like somehow it all makes sense to get themselves (or their parents) into debt for $100K or more (sometimes a lot more) in order to attend some fancy, expensive "fly'n university" to get a degree in "airplane flying" and a pocket full of ratings - in in order to get a job in TODAY'S aviation environment. Yesterday, it might have made sense - Johnny gets his ratings and his degree, Johnny gets hired by one of the majors, Johnny flies as FE for a few years, Johnny flies as FO for a few more, Johnny makes captain by the time he turns 32 and makes more money and has more time off than you know who and lives happily ever after. This is the pitch that they have sold themselves (and their parents) and this is the fantasyland that they live in. The only problem is that their dream world no longer exists and it never really did. Mom and dad buy into it though because that's the way they want it for their son too. Of course there are places that cater to those individuals that are willing to poney up the big $$$ for their (or their childrens') education and ratings and the cycle continues.

'Sled

 

[pilotyip]

I see some understanding starting to appear. There are other successful paths to a career in the cockpit besides the "You must go to college" to be a pilot. If anyone feels the college path is the correct path for whatever reason, girls, parties, lifestyle, or even learning, by all means go for it. But it is incorrect from the pro-college posters to say that the only way to the cockpit is full time college for four years. On the fallback value of the degree if you loose your medical. I am in my 60's I have been flying over 40 years, I only know two pilots that lost their medical, they were in their late 40’s and 50’s. They both stayed in aviation, their field of expertise, and one when to the airline training dept, the other to FSI. I believe it is a extremely small percentage of pilots in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s that loose their medical, so having the degree as the fallback for unlikely situation is not a valid reason for making the degree mandatory. You can not dip your toe into this career to see if you like it, you have to go to a 10-year commitment to see if you are going to make it.

 

[smellthejeta]

The problem I have with what he is saying is that some might take it to mean that they really don't need the advanced education.

I know. I had to read his stuff about 100 times and his defense of it twice as much before I understood EXACTLY what he was saying. It is way, way to easy to interpret it the way you did. I still think some of his defense has flaws (such as trying to do a numerical extrapolation of one's chances at an airline, degree or no degree).

Some people still haven't gotten it into their heads that the "glory" days of airline pilot salaries are probably long over. No one understands more than me the "compulsion" or lure that aviation can have on a person - I've got it as bad as the next guy. I shake my head when I hear guys talk like somehow it all makes sense to get themselves (or their parents) into debt for $100K or more (sometimes a lot more) in order to attend some fancy, expensive "fly'n university" to get a degree in "airplane flying" and a pocket full of ratings - in in order to get a job in TODAY'S aviation environment. Yesterday, it might have made sense - Johnny gets his ratings and his degree, Johnny gets hired by one of the majors, Johnny flies as FE for a few years, Johnny flies as FO for a few more, Johnny makes captain by the time he turns 32 and makes more money and has more time off than you know who and lives happily ever after. This is the pitch that they have sold themselves (and their parents) and this is the fantasyland that they live in. The only problem is that their dream world no longer exists and it never really did. Mom and dad buy into it though because that's the way they want it for their son too. Of course there are places that cater to those individuals that are willing to poney up the big $$$ for their (or their childrens') education and ratings and the cycle continues.

'Sled

In yesterday's employment environment, it may have made sense to bust your balls to get on the first seniority list you can and stay there, no matter what the cost. Every year you weren't flying, was one year you weren't making $300k due to the age sixty cap. In this day and age where one is likely to get furloughed fairly early on in a career, it makes no sense to assume $100k worth of debt, just to get furloughed and end up at the bottom of another regional list making $20k/yr again. For those that don't do numbers that well, $100k worth of debt is about $800/mo in student loan payments. That's way too much to be paying on first year pay, and even worse when you're furloughed. The economics of flying has made pursuing a flying career almost more trouble than it is worth. If management has it's way, it WILL be more trouble than it's worth.

When people tell me they want to puruse an aviation career (possibly flying, possibly not) or they think they want to but they're not sure, I tell them to go to a college where they can fly, possibly work on an ATC "major" and also a degree that has nothing to do with aviation if they have interests outside the industry. I tell them to tack on the ATC thing for a couple of reasons, and that's because 1) it's not that many extra classes, 2) so far, it's a much more stable, better paying, and easier to break into career than flying. I also tell them to do something else, because it is not easy to tranition from college to ATC -- the government can take a very long time to hire people, hiring ain't guaranteed, and you need something else to tide you over. I do suggest that those who wan to fly go to a college that has a flight program if they don't have much money. Flying *is* expensive, and putting the bill on a credit card ain't smart. *I* know. By flying at a college, one can get some loans at a very good rate, and some very good loans at that.

Frankly, I feel that Purdue is an excellent choice for aviators that want to work on a non-flying degree as well. The aviation program is good, they have an ATC program, and they have a strong engineering program on top of that.

 

[pilotyip]

Of course the percentage of degreed and non-degreed pilots come from the same pool. The reason the hiring at the six airlines I posted may give an advantage to the non-degreed pilot is this. They have more flight experience, because they have been flying for 4-5 years longer than the guy who when to college full time. We had one 28 yr. old pilot get hired at a major played in the scheduled passenger business he had 6000TT, 5000 MEL 3000 Part 121 TJ PIC. He had also been a check airman that impresses recruiters. It is the total package that gets the job offer, the college degree is only a part of the total package.

 

[Lead Sled]

I am in my 60's I have been flying over 40 years, I only know two pilots that lost their medical, they were in their late 40’s and 50’s. They both stayed in aviation, their field of expertise, and one when to the airline training dept, the other to FSI.

I am in my 50's and this year is my 40th year that I've held a pilot certificate. You must have associated with some very charmed people. I've certainly known more than two guys who have lost their medicals. It's been more than 20 years since my airline days, but I remember them saying that only something in the order of 80% of their pilots make it to age 60, the rest will end up retiring early - many of those for medical reasons. My numbers might not be correct, but the gist of it is.

I can see where you're coming from, but ONLY to the point that it applies to those wanting to go into 121 operations. When it comes to the high paying part 91 jobs, the total package is, has been, and always will be more important than a person's total time.

'Sled

 

[inline]

It used to be about the joy of flying. Management seems to do everything in its power to take that away. Now its about earning a living. Speaking as one without a degree, I would get one if I had it to do over again. Its a show stopper at the better places to work nowdays.(Fed Ex/Ups etc.)

With FedEx it's also a show stopper if you're not ex/current Marines,Navy,USAF, USCG or AG.

 

[AdlerDriver]

With FedEx it's also a show stopper if you're not ex/current Marines,Navy,USAF, USCG or AG.

40% of my new hire class was civilian.