Pilotyip not anti-college

[Lead Sled]

My father was a B17 and B29 instructor. Hired by Continental into left seat of DC3. Called back to fly C54 in the Berlin Airlift. Returned to Continental in the CV340. Flew for Continental for 34 years in DC6, DC7, Viscounts, 320C (MACV), 727 (AIR MIC), 747 and retiring in DC10 landing at HNL a 1/2 hour before his 60th birthday. He has a high school education. His adage is "son, you don't have to be too smart to be an airline pilot."

A piece of paper does not a pilot make.

Those days are long gone.

'Sled

 

[smellthejeta]

It's definately a rough position to find yourself in. But I'll throw out the question - let's assume that you're 52 years old, just lost your medical and you've found yourself having to look for work. That would be a tough situation under any circumstances, but would you rather start pounding the pavement with an unused 30 year old bachelor's degree or with nothing more than a high school diploma or GED? I don't know about you, but I'm glad I've got my business degree. By the way, as a flight department manager and chief pilot, I guess that I have used it all along.

I wasn't saying the value of it is worthless, just asking what it is. That's coming from somebody who is faced with the strong possibility of losing/not getting his medical btw, and I didn't graduate from college yesterday (or last last semester) either. Let's just say I'm happy to be facing only TWO more years of college (masters or an A&P or something like that) as opposed to FOUR years of college. The older I get, the less I look forward to four years of college. The only difference is that my college is an engineering/technical skill, and not of the softer side where there is as much to "forget."

FWIW, I had my ATP and nearly 4,000 hours before I graduated from college. From start to finish it took me nearly ten years to finish up. A big chunk of my total study time was spent in the back of a Cessna 411 parked at the Grand Canyon airport while my passengers were on tour buses.

I know a guy who has his PhD... he earned it sitting in the FBO. He only flies part time now and works his PhD job full time...

I don't have a lot of patience when guys tell me that they can't do it. I did it, it just took 10 years. Along the way I got married, started a family, and paid for all of my ratings. When I was finished it was all paid for - no student loans were involved. I'm not all that smart, so if I can figure it out it ought to be easy for the rest of you.
'Sled

The more and more I listen to pilotyip, the less and less I disagree with what he says. Personally, I think that taking out a bunch of loans and graduating neck deep in debt is a very dumb way to go. Yes, it would be nice to end up on a seniority list as fast as possible, but a more practical way to do things is what he suggests and how you did it -- go to school on the side an fly full time. As you also imply, it's hard work and sweat that gets you through life, not the brains.

 

[cforst513]

My father was a B17 and B29 instructor. Hired by Continental into left seat of DC3. Called back to fly C54 in the Berlin Airlift. Returned to Continental in the CV340. Flew for Continental for 34 years in DC6, DC7, Viscounts, 320C (MACV), 727 (AIR MIC), 747 and retiring in DC10 landing at HNL a 1/2 hour before his 60th birthday. He has a high school education. His adage is "son, you don't have to be too smart to be an airline pilot."

A piece of paper does not a pilot make.

dude, that was a different era. just like lead sled said, those days are long gone. it's like trying to compare the 1913 yankees to the 2005 yankees. it's apples and oranges. your father lived in a different time than we do today. it seems like he flew back when this profession was still a prestigious one. i mean, he was an INSTRUCTOR on B29's and B17's? that's old school. impressive list, though. i bet he has some pretty sweet stories!

 

[Lead Sled]

Personally, I think that taking out a bunch of loans and graduating neck deep in debt is a very dumb way to go. Yes, it would be nice to end up on a seniority list as fast as possible, but a more practical way to do things is what he suggests and how you did it -- go to school on the side an fly full time. As you also imply, it's hard work and sweat that gets you through life, not the brains.

The problem I have with what he is saying is that some might take it to mean that they really don't need the advanced education. They most certainly do - unless they're willing to gamble that they will NEVER loose their medical, NEVER get furloughed, NEVER get fired, NEVER have any number of thing happen in their lives that would result in their being out on the street looking for a way to support themselves and their families. I'm not really that old and I've seen it time after time after time and not only in aviation - my oldest daughter's father-in-law had a "life-time" job making very good money. Yada, yada, yada, he ended up being unemployed and had one heck of a time finding someone to hire a 50's something with just a high school education who was willing to pay him more than $8 to $10 per hour.

Some people still haven't gotten it into their heads that the "glory" days of airline pilot salaries are probably long over. No one understands more than me the "compulsion" or lure that aviation can have on a person - I've got it as bad as the next guy. I shake my head when I hear guys talk like somehow it all makes sense to get themselves (or their parents) into debt for $100K or more (sometimes a lot more) in order to attend some fancy, expensive "fly'n university" to get a degree in "airplane flying" and a pocket full of ratings - in in order to get a job in TODAY'S aviation environment. Yesterday, it might have made sense - Johnny gets his ratings and his degree, Johnny gets hired by one of the majors, Johnny flies as FE for a few years, Johnny flies as FO for a few more, Johnny makes captain by the time he turns 32 and makes more money and has more time off than you know who and lives happily ever after. This is the pitch that they have sold themselves (and their parents) and this is the fantasyland that they live in. The only problem is that their dream world no longer exists and it never really did. Mom and dad buy into it though because that's the way they want it for their son too. Of course there are places that cater to those individuals that are willing to poney up the big $$$ for their (or their childrens') education and ratings and the cycle continues.

'Sled

 

[pilotyip]

I see some understanding starting to appear. There are other successful paths to a career in the cockpit besides the "You must go to college" to be a pilot. If anyone feels the college path is the correct path for whatever reason, girls, parties, lifestyle, or even learning, by all means go for it. But it is incorrect from the pro-college posters to say that the only way to the cockpit is full time college for four years. On the fallback value of the degree if you loose your medical. I am in my 60's I have been flying over 40 years, I only know two pilots that lost their medical, they were in their late 40’s and 50’s. They both stayed in aviation, their field of expertise, and one when to the airline training dept, the other to FSI. I believe it is a extremely small percentage of pilots in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s that loose their medical, so having the degree as the fallback for unlikely situation is not a valid reason for making the degree mandatory. You can not dip your toe into this career to see if you like it, you have to go to a 10-year commitment to see if you are going to make it.

 

[smellthejeta]

The problem I have with what he is saying is that some might take it to mean that they really don't need the advanced education.

I know. I had to read his stuff about 100 times and his defense of it twice as much before I understood EXACTLY what he was saying. It is way, way to easy to interpret it the way you did. I still think some of his defense has flaws (such as trying to do a numerical extrapolation of one's chances at an airline, degree or no degree).

Some people still haven't gotten it into their heads that the "glory" days of airline pilot salaries are probably long over. No one understands more than me the "compulsion" or lure that aviation can have on a person - I've got it as bad as the next guy. I shake my head when I hear guys talk like somehow it all makes sense to get themselves (or their parents) into debt for $100K or more (sometimes a lot more) in order to attend some fancy, expensive "fly'n university" to get a degree in "airplane flying" and a pocket full of ratings - in in order to get a job in TODAY'S aviation environment. Yesterday, it might have made sense - Johnny gets his ratings and his degree, Johnny gets hired by one of the majors, Johnny flies as FE for a few years, Johnny flies as FO for a few more, Johnny makes captain by the time he turns 32 and makes more money and has more time off than you know who and lives happily ever after. This is the pitch that they have sold themselves (and their parents) and this is the fantasyland that they live in. The only problem is that their dream world no longer exists and it never really did. Mom and dad buy into it though because that's the way they want it for their son too. Of course there are places that cater to those individuals that are willing to poney up the big $$$ for their (or their childrens') education and ratings and the cycle continues.

'Sled

In yesterday's employment environment, it may have made sense to bust your balls to get on the first seniority list you can and stay there, no matter what the cost. Every year you weren't flying, was one year you weren't making $300k due to the age sixty cap. In this day and age where one is likely to get furloughed fairly early on in a career, it makes no sense to assume $100k worth of debt, just to get furloughed and end up at the bottom of another regional list making $20k/yr again. For those that don't do numbers that well, $100k worth of debt is about $800/mo in student loan payments. That's way too much to be paying on first year pay, and even worse when you're furloughed. The economics of flying has made pursuing a flying career almost more trouble than it is worth. If management has it's way, it WILL be more trouble than it's worth.

When people tell me they want to puruse an aviation career (possibly flying, possibly not) or they think they want to but they're not sure, I tell them to go to a college where they can fly, possibly work on an ATC "major" and also a degree that has nothing to do with aviation if they have interests outside the industry. I tell them to tack on the ATC thing for a couple of reasons, and that's because 1) it's not that many extra classes, 2) so far, it's a much more stable, better paying, and easier to break into career than flying. I also tell them to do something else, because it is not easy to tranition from college to ATC -- the government can take a very long time to hire people, hiring ain't guaranteed, and you need something else to tide you over. I do suggest that those who wan to fly go to a college that has a flight program if they don't have much money. Flying *is* expensive, and putting the bill on a credit card ain't smart. *I* know. By flying at a college, one can get some loans at a very good rate, and some very good loans at that.

Frankly, I feel that Purdue is an excellent choice for aviators that want to work on a non-flying degree as well. The aviation program is good, they have an ATC program, and they have a strong engineering program on top of that.

 

[pilotyip]

Of course the percentage of degreed and non-degreed pilots come from the same pool. The reason the hiring at the six airlines I posted may give an advantage to the non-degreed pilot is this. They have more flight experience, because they have been flying for 4-5 years longer than the guy who when to college full time. We had one 28 yr. old pilot get hired at a major played in the scheduled passenger business he had 6000TT, 5000 MEL 3000 Part 121 TJ PIC. He had also been a check airman that impresses recruiters. It is the total package that gets the job offer, the college degree is only a part of the total package.

 

[Lead Sled]

I am in my 60's I have been flying over 40 years, I only know two pilots that lost their medical, they were in their late 40’s and 50’s. They both stayed in aviation, their field of expertise, and one when to the airline training dept, the other to FSI.

I am in my 50's and this year is my 40th year that I've held a pilot certificate. You must have associated with some very charmed people. I've certainly known more than two guys who have lost their medicals. It's been more than 20 years since my airline days, but I remember them saying that only something in the order of 80% of their pilots make it to age 60, the rest will end up retiring early - many of those for medical reasons. My numbers might not be correct, but the gist of it is.

I can see where you're coming from, but ONLY to the point that it applies to those wanting to go into 121 operations. When it comes to the high paying part 91 jobs, the total package is, has been, and always will be more important than a person's total time.

'Sled

 

[inline]

It used to be about the joy of flying. Management seems to do everything in its power to take that away. Now its about earning a living. Speaking as one without a degree, I would get one if I had it to do over again. Its a show stopper at the better places to work nowdays.(Fed Ex/Ups etc.)

With FedEx it's also a show stopper if you're not ex/current Marines,Navy,USAF, USCG or AG.

 

[AdlerDriver]

With FedEx it's also a show stopper if you're not ex/current Marines,Navy,USAF, USCG or AG.

40% of my new hire class was civilian.

 

[Goose Egg]

...it is incorrect from the pro-college posters to say that the only way to the cockpit is full time college for four years.

I may have said that earlier when I was among the unititiated, but I certainly haven't said that lately. There are ways "to the cockpit" without a 4 year degree. And there are those who are quite successful in aviation and other fields without degrees.

I believe it is a extremely small percentage of pilots in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s that loose their medical, so having the degree as the fallback for unlikely situation is not a valid reason for making the degree mandatory.

While I suspect that the actual percentage isn't so small, let's assume for the sake of the discussion that it is. Now, you can look at life in one of two ways, as an engineer or a statistician. Let's say that 10% of all pilots loose their medicals before their retirement age. Now, the statistician would say "hmm, 1 in 10. It's probably not going to happen." And the statistician would be right. However, the engineer would say "That's a 10% chance that a pilot could loose their medical," and would deem it completely unacceptable. After all, you don't design stuff with a 10% chance of failure.

I prefer to look at my life as an engineer would. Sure, for the sake of our discussion, the possiblity of a lost medical is remote (although as I said earlier, I suspect the odds are somewhat higher than 10%.) But what if I am in that 10%?

And this is to speak only of the "fallback" value of a degree, nevermind becoming well rounded being made aware of more than one's tiny little slice of life.

-Goose