pilotyip and the college degree

[bobbysamd]

"Useless" degrees

As stated before, I have nothing against college. But the pilot who pursues a nearly useless 4 year degree on campus, because wants one on his resume for the odd ball chance that one of 5 out of 166 aviation companies now interviewing will call him in, is misdirected . . . .

Define "useless," Yip.

As long as the degree comes from an accredited college, it is not useless. You have agreed that education comes with the degree, so how can education be useless? I've been following the Women's Studies debate above; with that major one can teach several subjects. A degree in that is good prep for advanced education, if one chooses that direction.

Perhaps you need to differentiate between "useless" and "tangible." Yes, a degree in, e.g., secretarial science or nursing will provide "skills." Some programs provide more "skills" than others, but no college degree is useless.

 

[pilotyip]

notice adverb

Notice I said nearly, which implies some value, but a degree in women's studies, US History (without a teacher's cert), or Art does not transfer into a skill that leads to a job.

 

[adam_jorgensen]

Wow. Been a while since I last posted here. I just can't ignore these degree issues as I am going through it right now where all these discussions apply to me. I have been fighting this for 2 years now. Of all the biggest issues in aviation, the degree thing seems to be one of the biggest things. I am going for a degree (long term goal is MBA but we will see) but I am starting off small. What I'm worried about is if I were to go to university full time, I can't fly very much, nor afford the both at the same time. I just want to fly and build up as much time as I can now. I'm starting my commercials this fall and are taking just a couple of courses this year at university but its better than nothing and taking no courses. Has distance learning ever occurred to anybody? Earn your degree while you fly full time. I know several people who are doing it right now. Then you'll have your degree by the time your ready to use it for somebody that may require it (in aviation anyways.) I think I may follow that route. Take just a few courses a year while still getting my flying time in. Also is easy on the budget to. A friend of mine, who is also a pilot told me it is nearly impossible to go to college full time, let alone afford it while your taking your commercials license for most normal people (like me) unless your going to one of those 30K a year tuition places like UND or ERAU where flying and study time is integrated into the school programs and let's be realistic, how many people can honestly afford that unless its being paid for by parents? I have to pay for everything. I want to be able to accumulate flying time and take university and I want to have as little debt as possible. I'll close by saying my only worry is you can't fly full time and go to school full time and what do companies value more? The flying experience or the degree or both? It would be great to have both but can you? Maybe distance learning is the answer or just part time school. You don't need the degree until later on anyways. You can always get your degree later on anyways, its never too late.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"you can always get your degree later"....

remember that one.

I would say the success rate of that is MAYBE 10%.
"Later" usually means a full time flying job, a family, a mortgage, maybe kids....etc...the normal progression on life.
(you get it.)
I know, I know, YOU"RE not going to get married or anything stupid like that...we all thought the same...

The VERY disciplined can do it, Im not saying it cant be done - but "later" typically gets pushed back later and even later...

You think school is expensive now? try doing it when you are making 20K/yr as a regional or charter pilot. - and I dont think they pay for your education. I was 27 before I got a job with tuition rembursement.

Another thought...that 20K(?)/yr at the University sounds expensive....how much less you going to make a year at say....Spirit Airlines..(no degree required) then you would make at say...Delta airlines (degree required)......20K will be peanuts man.

I have a pretty easy job and a decent schedule and I am working on my Masters online (yes, pretty useless). My company is paying 100% and I still cant get motivated or find the time to keep up. I keep delaying courses. Now, Im not Joe Brains, I admit - but Im also certainly not a slacker....it just is not fun, so we find other things to do instead. The only time I get ANY work done is one the road, but its not enough..

Good Luck, I maintain that its best to get the 4yr out of the way before you are 22yrs old - then all you have left to worry about is the flying hours - the easy part that a monkey can accomplish.

Its simple - the BEST jobs in aviation simply require it. Shoot for the best jobs or go into another field. Mediocre flying jobs get old quick.

Just some friendly advice...

and please YIP, no more PM's -I dont read them!! I fully understand that you have many degrees and simply love flying freighter DA20's. Happiness (no matter how its achieved) is all that matters.

 

[bobbysamd]

Teaching credential aside

Notice I said nearly, which implies some value, but a degree in women's studies, US History (without a teacher's cert), or Art does not transfer into a skill that leads to a job.

It may depend on the state or college, but one doesn't always need a teaching credential to instruct on the university level. For that matter, many school systems do not require teaching credentials to substitute teach.

With an art degree, one can certainly work in an art museum or art gallery. So, how does an art degree not transfer into a skill that leads to a job?

 

[leardrivr]

Well put, However there really are not any jobs in aviation that require a degree. I know of several people who have jobs with the majors without degrees or with only a associate. It is rare but it can be done. As with everything in life it comes down to who you know. Don't get me wrong. It is unlikely you will get on with a top company without a degree, However if you know the right person and have an excellent flying background you will get hired.

 

[pilotyip]

Art degree and jobs

My two nieces both have Art degrees and tow years after graduating from Mich State Univ and after one year of searching in their field. One works as a check out clerk at Food Lion and the other is going back to become a teacher. So much for the job placement value of an Art degree. How is the the horse doing?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

just for kicks...

I know a girl who works as an Art Therapist in Chicago. Makes a heck of a lot more than a pilot with her "useless" Art Degree..

It does not matter what your stupid degree is, its how you apply it. It's a prereq or a box to check off. No more, no less.

 

[vetteracer]

QUOTE
So much for the job placement value of an Art degree. How is the the horse doing?



YIP I could not agree more. It is criminal that in the Academia world they market degrees like this and others that have no professional title and are useless without a Masters or a Doctorate. In the past, History, Biology, etc were just the 4 years spent prior to a Doctorate. Today the Collegiate society has broadened there marketing range by offering more useless degrees. I have a friend with a Biology degree and his first job was testing the water in the public swimming pools. Last I heard he was dissecting turds in lab, with other high school grads. 50% of this problem is the degree the other is the person. Some people have no direction.

 

[mar]

Son of the Bride of Frankenstein

Oh my god it's the thread that wouldn't die.

It just keeps going and going and going.

Get an education/Don't get an education.

You're an adult. Make your choice. Live with it.

For crying out loud. There is no Rosetta Stone for Life.

Take your chance on a big jet airplane; never let them tell you they're all the same.

Apologies to LedZep.

This post is directed to no one in particular. Just had to say it.

 

[banned username 2]

OK, I think I see what's going on here... Bear with me while I lay it out...

PilotYIP keeps insisting on instigating discussions that basically state that to be a "Success" in aviation you do not need a college degree... Now we all know that PilotYIP does in fact himself hold multiple college degrees...

So here in lies the rub... PilotYIP is working at a job that does NOT require a college degree. Now if he said that all the "good" aviation jobs that are considered "successful" positions to hold, required a degree, it would be self-admittance that he was in fact not a "success"... (I'm not saying he isn't successful, just saying that him arguing the other side of this coin would be contrary to his life's achievements)... He can't agree with the crowd who says you need college to get a good job, it would be admitting that his job isn't good...

I think what PilotYIP has been doing in all of these "college vs. non-college" discussions is looking for a bit of reassurance that he has in fact been "successful" in his Aviation Career... I think if he feels that if people will agree that a successful aviation career can be had without a degree, than he will feel as he has succeeded in aviation because he is holding a position that is considered successful...

I think our friend is getting to a point in his life where he is reflecting back on his long, distinguished career and is maybe feeling as he received the short end of a few too many sticks... He is looking for someone to say (indirectly), "You did just fine regardless of what was thrown your way"...

PilotYIP, you and I have bumped heads on many topics, but we have always maintained a mutual respect for each other and remained on gentlemanly terms... If my above assessment is even close to being correct, don't look back and think what might have been, look back and remember what was...

Success isn't measured by how much money you make, how many days off you have or what you fly... It is measured by one simple factor... "Did you lead a happy life that fulfilled your own personal hopes, wants and desires?"

If your answer to that question is a resounding "YES" than you have been successful, and there is nothing further to discuss... College or no college, regardless of the job you hold, it really doesn't matter, there is no definitive right or wrong answer...

 

[pilotyip]

More hot news on the college degree

Fresh off of the presses. Reference the August 04 Air Inc. statistics on getting hired and the college degree. Majors: 95% had degree, 5% had less than two years college. Nationals: 83% had a degree, 5% lecithin two years of college. Jet Regionals: 67% had degree, 10% had less than two years college. Non-jet Regional 100% had a four year degree or better. Now what conclusion can be drawn from this? You must have a degree to work at a non-jet regional.

 

[TonyC]

Fresh off of the presses. Reference the August 04 Air Inc. statistics on getting hired and the college degree. Majors: 95% had degree, 5% had less than two years college. Nationals: 83% had a degree, 5% lecithin two years of college. Jet Regionals: 67% had degree, 10% had less than two years college. Non-jet Regional 100% had a four year degree or better. Now what conclusion can be drawn from this? You must have a degree to work at a non-jet regional.

I draw several conclusions from that:

1) The numbers are flawed. I cannot for a moment believe that not a single pilot hired by the majors had more than 2 years of college but no college degree.

Didn't catch that? Allow me to walk you through it:

95% had degree
+ 5% had less than two years college
= 100% of pilots hired at Majors


2) Statistics about past hiring do not guarantee the same trends in futurre hiring. FedEx hired no new pilots between July and September of 1997. Does that mean FedEx does NOT HIRE between July and September? Ask the guys that have started Basic Indoctrination this month and last.

3) Somebody's been wasting money on Air Inc. data



pilotyip, as long as there is an exception to the rule, you will be able to maintain that a college degree is not required to have a happy, successful career as an aviator. It only takes one exception to disprove the rule, and there are plenty of exceptions. But how useful is that?


One could load a six-shooter with five bullets, aim it at his temple, pull the trigger and survive. 17% of all trigger-pullers would be living proof that it's possible. Would you, based on that statistic, advise your own child to pull the trigger?

 

[pilotyip]

Tony C wants to shoot the horse

According to Tony C's logic, the horse has a 17% chance of surviving.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Flawed, useless data from Air Inc?

say it aint so....

Air Inc - Pushing garbage to mindless souls - the crack cocaine of the pilot ghetto.

JUST SAY NO.

 

[TonyC]

According to Tony C's logic, the horse has a 17% chance of surviving.

Pull the trigger twice, and the statistic changes dramatically.





Oh, and it's not "my" logic. It's probability and statistics - - I learned a great deal about the subject in college.

 

[enigma]

Don't you people have something better to do with your time than beat this horse?

enigma

 

[Gulfstream 200]

dont you have anything better to do besides read about this horse?



I think its really just gotten to be a running joke (a bad one at that..)

Im organizing a busload of pilots (college degrees only) to drive out to Willow Run and beat some sense into YIP....

 

[bobbysamd]

Horses

dont you have anything better to do besides read about this horse?

While we're on the subject of horses, how about some solid gold rock 'n roll from our classic stacks of wax:

On the first part of the journey
I was looking at all the life
There were plants and birds and rocks and things
There was sand and hills and rings
The first thing I met was a fly with a buzz
And the sky with no clouds
The heat was hot and the ground was dry
But the air was full of sound

I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la ...

After two days in the desert sun
My skin began to turn red
After three days in the desert fun
I was looking at a river bed
And the story it told of a river that flowed
Made me sad to think it was dead

You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la ...

After nine days I let the horse run free
'Cause the desert had turned to sea
There were plants and birds and rocks and things
there was sand and hills and rings
The ocean is a desert with it's life underground
And a perfect disguise above
Under the cities lies a heart made of ground
But the humans will give no love

You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la ...

"Horse With No Name" - America, 1971.

Further, although this might be a little late, I, for one, was disappointed when Smarty Jones lost the Belmont last June. Secretariat remains my all-time favorite thoroughbred.

Finally,

Im organizing a busload of pilots (college degrees only) to drive out to Willow Run and beat some sense into YIP....

Let me know.

 

[banned username 2]

"Horse With No Name" - America, 1971.

I used to listen to America's Greatest Hits while driving up Senator Highway past where the pavement ends... Was a nice getaway...

Thanks for the flash back!

I gotta get out to Denver soon so we can go get some more BBQ!

 

[Lead Sled]

I gotta get out to Denver soon so we can go get some more BBQ!

Where do you go for good BBQ in Denver? (Don't you just luv the way these threads evolve? )

 

[bobbysamd]

Success

I think if he feels that if people will agree that a successful aviation career can be had without a degree, than he will feel as he has succeeded in aviation because he is holding a position that is considered successful...

That's what I was driving at above. One might be able to obtain a "good" aviation job, paying $75K eventually, without a degree. Nothing at all the matter with making that kind of bread.

Of course, Yip has succeeded in aviation. I am not altogether familiar with Yip's career, but to be (1) a Naval Aviator and (2) to be in the position he's in at USA Jets are nothing to sneeze at. Especially considering that so many pilots, through no fault of their own, begin - and end - their aviation careers doing the same job - and maybe at the same airport. By any standard, Yip has had a successful aviation career.

The point remains that the degree opens all doors and shuts none. And, the point remains that while the odds are long to be hired at any aviation job that they are longer without presenting the full array of credentials, including "the degree."

 

[bobbysamd]

Denver BBQ aside

Where do you go for good BBQ in Denver? (Don't you just luv the way these threads evolve? )

Without any doubt whatsoever, it's Brothers BBQ, with a location only blocks away from APA!

 

[pilotyip]

Lets end this

Hugh Jordon started the horse stuff, and I said I would end it. Let this be the last post and this thing will die.

 

[banned username 2]

And this thread is officially.... DEAD!

(and not a minute too soon!)