pilotyip and the college degree

[bobbysamd]

"The degree"

I think yip is trying to get guys to think outside of the box, I was in disagreement with him on this issue for a long time due to my personal opinions and beliefs, unfortunately they had nothing to do with the reality of getting hired.

Pilots have been hired without the degree and will continue to be hired without one.

No one has said that being hired without the degree is impossible. E.g., once more, the names of pilots I read in Career Pilot magazine's "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots," monthly box who had one or multiple years of college without earning the degree, along with the names of those who had the degree and more. Here again, there are always exceptions.

However, wouldn't it be "prudent," as old George Bush used to say, to try to be the rule instead of the exception? Wouldn't it be prudent to have the odds with you and not against you? Try betting against the odds in Vegas.

One point I've distilled from Yip's degree-alternative campaign is his belief that a person can get a good flying job without a degree or even college. But, why settle only for "good" when with the degree you have a shot at the best jobs and all jobs?? In other words, be on an equal footing with your competition. Get the degree.

 

[A Squared]

Sounds like someone feels threatened

YAAAAAWN, oh yes, the same old boring knee-jerk resopnse ... "you must be threatened" Can't think of anything intelligent to say? Play the "threatened" card.

I guess it was predictable that you'd trot out that tired old saw. oh well.

Why not, instead of attacking me personally, address what I said?

Can't do it? Can't defend Woman's studies as a legitimate academic discipline?
Play the "threatened" card" and hope noone notices you haven't made an argument

Can't show that Andrea Dworkin* isn't a raving lunatic?

Play the "threatened" card" and hope noone notices you haven't made an argument.

Can't explain why you ought to get a college degree for spending 4 years reading the misandry spewed by Andrea Dworkin, Katherine Mckinnon, Kate Millett, and thier Ilk?

Well then, by all means, play the "threatened" card and hope than no-one notices you haven't made an argument.

Let me ask you something: Doesn't it embarrass you to have to depend on such transparent, rote responses to anyone who disagrees with you? "you must be threatened" is on the same intellectual plane as "I know you are, what am I" or other such infantile responses. If that was the best I could come up with, I'd just keep my mouth shut.

For now I'll forget the hypocrisy of your attacking the person in an attempt to bolster your hollow words....... words to live by, eh pagan? How quickly you forget your own condemnation of mindless ad-hominen attack.





* For those of you who are unfamilliar with Andrea Dworkin, she is a virulently anti-male author. Her works center around the central theme that intercourse equals rape and rape equals murder, thus marriage is instutionalized murder. No really, I'm not making this up, nor exaggerating it, this is practicaly verbatim what she writes. She is in fact a deranged psychopath. Here's to "women's studies" !!!

 

[pilotyip]

Thanks 350

My point exactly, I am not saying the non-degree route it is right for everyone, but it does work. Quality flight will get you a good job. I do not say anyone supporting the college route is wrong, I just exercise my right to disagree. And normally disagree by posting exceptions to the rule, which worked out. But the pro-college crowd likes to ignore those because they do not fit the single path to success route they advocate.

 

[pilotyip]

Distortion Bobby

You are distorting my words again, I am not against getting the degree, and I have an admitted that the degree may open doors. But you can get a degree while flying full time and building quality flight time, but you can not build quality flight time while going to school full time. It is a matter of timing, if you want to be a pilot, fly airplanes. TJ PIC gets you the job. The pilots who have quality PIC will get good jobs in the next hiring boom starting in June of 2007.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

No more horse, only glue here.

 

[pilotyip]

Beat up enough?

I can not find much glue, but lots of Horse Sh*t, and I have been feeding the horse a regular diet. If it wiggels I will feed it.

 

[banned username 2]

PilotYIP, is your life so boring that you have run out of people to argue with in other threads and now have resorted to starting your own threads to argue in???

Sshheesshh Man, get a friggin' hobby already!

 

[FracCapt]

Quality flight will get you a good job. I do not say anyone supporting the college route is wrong, I just exercise my right to disagree. And normally disagree by posting exceptions to the rule, which worked out. But the pro-college crowd likes to ignore those because they do not fit the single path to success route they advocate.

6500TT, 6000 PIC, 4000+Turbine PIC, 2500+ Jet PIC, 4 types, 4yr degree, working on MBA. Apps in with all Legacy carriers(and SWA) since 2000 or earlier, and JBLU and FL since early 2002. One call from Delta in early 2001, but interview was cancelled(though, I am supposedly on "the list" of the first people to be called when interviewing resumes) due to hiring stoppage.

Why haven't I been called by every airline? Oh, I guess I shouldn't have expected any calls since I had 1000+ TJ PIC. Ok, that was in mid 2001. Before I started building TJ PIC in late 1999, I only had 1500 TP PIC in single pilot ops(in TP's requiring a type).

Anyways, gotta go. Air America is on TBS. <sigh>, I wish it was that easy these days to get an interesting job.

 

[pilotyip]

You are not lucky

FracCapt: Like me your luck is not working, ever thought of YIP?

 

[pilotyip]

DA-20 Capt

Someone suggested we take this conversation off of Coly's thread. So I started a new one, do I have to keep feeding this horse, I will feed it as long as the horse wiggels. How about BBQ horse?

 

[FracCapt]

FracCapt: Like me your luck is not working, ever thought of YIP?

Not a chance. I live in Florida now....can't stomach the move to YIP! I have a good enough job right now, but searching for better, preferably local(or SWA) jobs.

 

[banned username 2]

How about BBQ horse?

See, Now... NOW we are actually getting somewhere here...

Do you like to slow smoke your horse over a nice hickory fire, or are you a "Grill it and eat it" kinda horse eater???

(Finally an INTERESTING conversation on here!)

 

[BornAgainPagan]

YAAAAAWN, oh yes, the same old boring knee-jerk resopnse ... "you must be threatened" Can't think of anything intelligent to say? Play the "threatened" card.

I guess it was predictable that you'd trot out that tired old saw. oh well.

Why not, instead of attacking me personally, address what I said?

Can't do it? Can't defend Woman's studies as a legitimate academic discipline?
Play the "threatened" card" and hope noone notices you haven't made an argument

Can't show that Andrea Dworkin* isn't a raving lunatic?

Play the "threatened" card" and hope noone notices you haven't made an argument.

Can't explain why you ought to get a college degree for spending 4 years reading the misandry spewed by Andrea Dworkin, Katherine Mckinnon, Kate Millett, and thier Ilk?

Well then, by all means, play the "threatened" card and hope than no-one notices you haven't made an argument.

Let me ask you something: Doesn't it embarrass you to have to depend on such transparent, rote responses to anyone who disagrees with you? "you must be threatened" is on the same intellectual plane as "I know you are, what am I" or other such infantile responses. If that was the best I could come up with, I'd just keep my mouth shut.

For now I'll forget the hypocrisy of your attacking the person in an attempt to bolster your hollow words....... words to live by, eh pagan? How quickly you forget your own condemnation of mindless ad-hominen attack.





* For those of you who are unfamilliar with Andrea Dworkin, she is a virulently anti-male author. Her works center around the central theme that intercourse equals rape and rape equals murder, thus marriage is instutionalized murder. No really, I'm not making this up, nor exaggerating it, this is practicaly verbatim what she writes. She is in fact a deranged psychopath. Here's to "women's studies" !!!

You're one to talk about knee jerk reactions. Your armchair attempt at villifying entire fields of study didn't deserve the time of day. Your initial sophomoric comments consists of the very mindlessness of which you speak.

You're the one that started with the ad hominem attacks "deranged psychopath", "raving lunatic". Sorry, the hypocrisy is so blaringly obvious that I cannot look past it.

As for defending Dworkin or an academic discipline; You made the accusations so the burden of proof is on you. You somehow think that your post was an intelligent argument? How about this? You're a deranged psychopath now prove that you're not. .....See how silly that sounds?

Now you have just given further evidence that you might feel threatened. That is not an attack, it's not even personal....just observations based on your glib response.

 

[350DRIVER]

No one has said that being hired without the degree is impossible. E.g., once more, the names of pilots I read in Career Pilot magazine's "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots," monthly box who had one or multiple years of college without earning the degree, along with the names of those who had the degree and more. Here again, there are always exceptions.

However, wouldn't it be "prudent," as old George Bush used to say, to try to be the rule instead of the exception? Wouldn't it be prudent to have the odds with you and not against you? Try betting against the odds in Vegas.

One point I've distilled from Yip's degree-alternative campaign is his belief that a person can get a good flying job without a degree or even college. But, why settle only for "good" when with the degree you have a shot at the best jobs and all jobs?? In other words, be on an equal footing with your competition. Get the degree.

bobbysamd,

I never argued against anyone getting a degree, I just do not think this will be the "make or break you" factor when it comes down to who get's "hired" and who doesn't. It really comes down to experience, flight time(s), work history, background, etc, that will make one more marketable and allow them the chance to even get the interview in the first place. A lot of "getting" the interview also depends on "luck", I think even you will agree with me on this one?. I do not think the many that are landing "good jobs" present day that have not earned this "degree" are the exception to this so called rule. Sometimes in life people don't have the luxury of being able to "pay", attend, and obtain the degree. I have met many who were not as fortunate as you or the many others that frequent this board. If you see "odds" that you can handle then why not "play" the game?. This is a very "interesting" industry to say the least and that degree surely will not allow you to fly any aircraft better than someone who does not have the degree.

I have met many who had masters + and I wouldn't want any family members onboard any aircraft that they were signing for. The bottom line is what may look good on paper will not make them a "good pilot" and save their a$$ one day when the sh!t hits the fan.

I don't think yip is doing anything here except attempting to help those younger pilots on this board who are looking for solid advice and opinions. He has a pretty big say in who get's hired at USA Jet, so why discount what he has to say?.

I merely think he is only trying to be of help to many out there. Some will listen, some will bash him, I just tend to respect his position and everything that he has accomplished to date. This is a man who seems quite happy and content with everything that he has accomplished and I have no reason to doubt that he is posting here out of "experience". He has no reason(s) to blow smoke or sell something off that may not be true.

Does being a well respected pilot at USA Jet make him any less of a pilot or person than that senior captain at UAL or DAL?. I think not, some are not as lucky and as fortunate as others. Timing is the key, some have not had "timing" work in their favor.

I don't think the simple fact of his son not having a degree is the reason behind "why" he is taking the stance that he continues to take here.

I would say 95%+ who frequent this board have the degree and they feel like it is a "must" so this is why this man continues to take the heat and bashing.

He doesn't need to post here, he isn't getting paid to do so, and I truly feel that he is only trying to get people to think outside the box.


3 5 0

 

[pilotyip]

can the horse rest now?

Even I now think we have explored all of options, and we respectfully agree to disagree. It is the the american way.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

That horse wouldn't be so tired had he gone to college and got a better job!!!

 

[banned username 2]

That horse wouldn't be so tired had he gone to college and got a better job!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

some folks just cant let it go.....

 

[bobbysamd]

Distortions, job satisfaction and opening doors

If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary . . . . I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. But then my focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane.

(emphasis added)

One point I've distilled from Yip's degree-alternative campaign is his belief that a person can get a good flying job without a degree or even college.

You are distorting my words again, I am not against getting the degree, and I have an admitted that the degree may open doors. But you can get a degree while flying full time and building quality flight time, but you can not build quality flight time while going to school full time. It is a matter of timing, if you want to be a pilot, fly airplanes. TJ PIC gets you the job. The pilots who have quality PIC will get good jobs in the next hiring boom starting in June of 2007.

What distortion? Where did I distort what you said? If anything, I've summed up your no-college alternative thesis.

Yes, one can obtain a degree online while flying full-time. Perhaps one cannot build "quality" flight time while going to college full-time (though ERAU Flight Fellowship students build time while going to college). Once more, my point is that going to college while working full-time is a daunting task and that most people, human as they are, will work first and let college slide. This is especially true with pilots and their schedules. Therefore, although they had good intentions when enrolling in online college they've arrived at the point where they need the degree and do not have it. Better to get the daunting task of college out of the way first and then fly. Or, if they choose, don't bother with college, don't bother being eligible for every job, and try to beat back the masses for one of the jobs Yip references. As he notes, it's been done.

Finally,

[M]y focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane.

I would submit that good pay and respect have a great deal to do with job satisfaction. I.e., being paid fairly or better and being treated fairly or better.

A degree may not make or break you, as 350 has said, and it has nothing to do with the actual act of flying an airplane, as Yip has stated repeatedly. However, while I was in college, I worked closely with someone who bragged that the only reason why he was in college was to get a piece of paper to enable him to earn more paper, i.e. money. His point is congruent with this discussion. The degree will open many doors that would otherwise slam in your face. I know that has been true in my working career. Once the door opens, perhaps ratings, flight time, experience and luck will enable you to walk in. Therefore, I'd rather have doors opening for me than slamming shut.

Indeed, there are choices. Choose wisely.

 

[pilotyip]

we just can not let it go

Wow! this is fun, I started something here that can not be turned off. On respect. A degree does get you respect. Ask any Ensign, with a degree, that stated to his division: "You have to respect me becasue I am an officer and I have a degree" You know how far that will go. How does that Ensign get respect? He earns by becoming someone worthy of respect because of his actions. If someone to college so they can be respected, it will be like going into an avaition career for the money. They could be disappoined.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Contrary to what you think YIP, some go into aviation for the fun AND the money....and they get both...


but, of course, they got thier college degree FIRST.

 

[pilotyip]

Luck determines, not skill not desire

As I have posted before all the skill and desire in the world with or without a college degree plays only a minor part who gets the double brass ring flying job (Fun and money). Luck is the unknown, timing is a portion of luck, and the individual has little control over these elements. So for everyone, like me who is not as lucky as you, let us enjoy our lot in life. We hold no envy of you, and you should not feel any compusion to let us know we have not made it in your terms. You have seen my career in a PM. There are many like me.

 

[Lead Sled]

Pilotyip...
I've got agree with you - luck certainly has something to do with it; but in today's (and for the forseeable future) job market you've got to avail yourself of every advantage. I've been in a position to do hiring in the past and it has been a real eye opening experience. Let the word get out that you've got an opening available for a descent job You will get literally 100's of resumes via fax, mail, and e-mail within days. How do you go about paring down the list to a managable number? The process is very arbitrary - on the first pass, you eliminate all of the guys below your flight time cutoff, those guys without an ATP, those guys dumb enough to list "Flight Engineer Writtens Passed" on a resume sent to a corporate flight department and furloughed airline types. The next cut eliminates those guys that don't specifically identify themselves as "non-smokers". The third cut is for those guys without a degree. Hopefully, the number of resumes is starting to be reduced to a managable quantity. If not, you start looking at married vs single, number (and types) of previous jobs held, etc.

Can you get a good flying job without a degree? Of course you can. But when it comes to selecting between two equally qualified individuals - one degree'd, the other not, I believe the job offer will be tendered to the degreed pilot 9 times out of 10. Like you said, luck has a lot to do with it. Oh, and what happens when you bust a medical?

Lead Sled

 

[A Squared]

Born Again:

I might be threatened, I might even be a Deranged Psychopath....ummm so what? My emotional status is all completely irrelevant to the subject of "women's Studies" as my wirtings are not studied in "women's studies". Ms Dworkin's are, so her questionable mental status is indeed germane to the topic. Yes, the types of literature studied in "women's studies" as well as the authors of such, does reveal much about the legitimacy of the "field of study" as you call it.

But once again you've attempted to shift the topic away from "women's studies" by attempting to focus on me personally. Again.

Let's get back to the topic at hand. I'll concede that I am a threatened, degranged psychopath, if that will put an end to your insistence on trying to make this about me.

So, tell us, what are these frontiers of science which are being relentlessly pushed back in women's studies? So far you have not posted one word which even suggests there is anything of merit being studied. you're the one who is claiming that "women's studies" is a legitimate, worthwhile "field of study"?

When you get right down to it, the answer is nothing. Sure, there might be some real sociology involved, but most universities *have* a sociology department, which has probably been around longer than the "women's studies" department. Yeah, there may be some psychology studied, but again, there's plenty of psychology departments at our universities. Biology, perhaps? Yep we've already got biology departments. ssoooo you strip away the studies which are already studied in legitimate disciplines, and what are you left with? not much, just the study of a bunch of women authors consumed with thier hatred of men. If you read the literature, (and I have) it becomes apparent that thay are seeking, not to solve any problems between men and women, but rather to raise the level of conflict. Solving problems is not a goal because only by perpetuating and intensifying the diffences can they be assured of continuing to sell thier books, and continuing to be supplied with faculty positions.

If men and women patched up thier differences tomorrow, a lot of useless parasites would have to get a real job, and they understand that all too well. That is why we have "women's studies". Women's studies is not about studying how women and men might beter co-exist, it's about driving a wedge deeper and deeper between the two.

 

[pilotyip]

talk about the horse

women's what?

 

[banned username 2]

Luck determines, not skill not desire

A real man creates his own luck...

 

[pilotyip]

Easily Said DA CA

Harder to do.

 

[vetteracer]

YIP, I agree with most everything you hold dear on this subject. But in today’s world, a college degree is looked upon the same as finishing high school was in 1945. This generation NEEDS more education. Is it a waste of money, in my opinion no? For some, yes.

I went to college for many reasons, and at the time getting a better education was not why. I was told that I should get a 4-year degree to be marketable for the airlines. I also had the opportunity to go to college and being the first in my family to do so, I though it would be an opportunity worth taking. As I traversed through the courses I studied and learned. I dove into history as I enjoyed that and the sciences. College has offered me the opportunity to enter a frame of mind that education never stops. Maybe this is what I needed to round off what many others already had. In any event I am glad I went to college and had that experience.

You are right, college did not put hours in my logbook, and it did not give me experience in weather, although I studied meteorology, which helped me be a better pilot. But it is a life long education that rounds many young folks out to be better students and better teachers of what life has to offer.

In this age of video game zombified kids, I would encourage them to be exposed to anything that would allow them the opportunity to partake in a conversation.

Mark

 

[pilotyip]

as stated before

As stated before, I have nothing against college. But the pilot who pursues a nearly useless 4 year degree on campus, because wants one on his resume for the odd ball chance that one of 5 out of 166 aviation companies now interviewing will call him in, is misdirected. He has not developed a useful skill to fall back on. That person shoud go for the alternate career path of getting right into the cockpit.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Pilots with 4 yr degrees (earned on campus) simply have better pilot skills.