Pilots Who Have NO Turboprop Time

[Caveman]

I'm a product of the current hiring profile and essentially have no TP time. Seminole to CRJ to A320. The reason I say 'essentially' is because when I was hired at CMR in 2001 everyone still started out on the Brasilia. I did the training and passed my checkride but never flew the airplane. Shortly after my checkride we went on strike and after the strike I started CRJ training.

I regret never getting to actually fly the Brasilia because it was a bitch getting through training and I would've liked to have logged at least a few hours in it, but I'm not convinced flying it would have made me a better pilot. It was pretty automated, it has an APU and a F/A. Same thing for the ATR and the Dash. In the terminal area we're all at 250 anyways so where is the big difference? The 1900 guys certainly have it a bit different but IMO most modern 121 turboprops aren't much different from regional jets once you get below 10000.

I do lament the fact I didn't fly single pilot checks/freight between CFIing and 121 flying. Financially I'm glad I didn't have to, but I think the experience would have been fun and certainly wouldn't have hurt my overall flying ability. There's a lot to be said for war stories. There I was, it was a dark and stormy night, etc, etc. When you're sitting around the fire with your grandkids they'd probably rather hear about that stuff instead of about the time the mean and nasty ol' CRJ dripped glycol on me during the walkaround in YUL.

There is one group of aviators that do seem to stand out a little bit IMO. Anybody that's spent any time as a 121 turboprop Captain flying with very junior pilots usually seem to have their shiite together. Their SA is normally above average and they don't get rattled very easily. I know it's fashionable to bust on Gulfstream guys, but can you imagine CFIing in a 1900 while trying to safely deliver pax in all kinds of WX into a major airport? The same thing applies to guys from places like Colgan and Skyway. Say what you will but those guys can seriously multitask. YMMV.

 

[vtchaz]

Thanks for the compliment

There is one group of aviators that do seem to stand out a little bit IMO. Anybody that's spent any time as a 121 turboprop Captain flying with very junior pilots usually seem to have their shiite together. Their SA is normally above average and they don't get rattled very easily. I know it's fashionable to bust on Gulfstream guys, but can you imagine CFIing in a 1900 while trying to safely deliver pax in all kinds of WX into a major airport? The same thing applies to guys from places like Colgan and Skyway. Say what you will but those guys can seriously multitask. YMMV.

Thanks for the compliment Caveman, but it's not as bad at Colgan as you'd think. Our hiring department does an excellent job of screening people (IMHO). Most of the new FOs, while green, are good pilots. We only hire a small percentage of applicants and are one of the few airlines out there (of any size) that still require you to prove you can fly, in a full motion Simulator (Beech 1900). I think that makes all the difference in the world with getting quality FOs.

 

[Caveman]

Thanks for the compliment Caveman, but it's not as bad at Colgan as you'd think. Our hiring department does an excellent job of screening people (IMHO). Most of the new FOs, while green, are good pilots. We only hire a small percentage of applicants and are one of the few airlines out there (of any size) that still require you to prove you can fly, in a full motion Simulator (Beech 1900). I think that makes all the difference in the world with getting quality FOs.

I wasn't trying to compare you guys to Gulfstream. Colgan and Skyway both hire qualified pilots ready to go to work. I only meant that comparatively, they are usually pretty low time and the learning curve is pretty steep. It was meant as a genuine compliment and not a sideways swipe at Colgan or Skyway.

 

[vtchaz]

I wasn't trying to compare you guys to Gulfstream. Colgan and Skyway both hire qualified pilots ready to go to work. I only meant that comparatively, they are usually pretty low time and the learning curve is pretty steep. It was meant as a genuine compliment and not a sideways swipe at Colgan or Skyway.

Dude, I totally took it as a genuine compliment, which is why I was being serious when I said thank you. So again, Thank you.

I did want to stress though, that Colgan hires, IMHO more qualified applicants than most operators, TP or RJ.

 

[Hootie9750]

I'm curious. How many pilots here have never flown a Turboprop? Do you feel any regret for skipping that segment? Do you feel that you might have learned something flying a 19 seat turboprop (no a/p, no f/a) for 6-8 legs a day?

:smash:

I wanted to fly a turboprop. There was only one regional I was willing to go to and they put me in a jet. I wasn't going to go work for 15 bucks an hour at Great Lakes just so I could fly a 1900.

Does anyone feel like they missed anything going from a 172 CFI to a part 121 two crew turboprop FO? Do you feel like you could have learned some real PIC skills by flying freight in a C421/PA31/BE58 (no a/p, no f/a, no radar, no heater, no pressurization, no paint, no captain to babysit you into the real weather) for 4-8 legs a day doing FULL approaches in non-radar by yourself through the mountains at night?

???

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Enjoyed flying the Brasilia and ATR, but enjoy leaving the Southeast on the RJ at the same time. Wear the hat, but would love to see it disappear when it's summertime uniform guidelines, if not altogether.

Enjoy my ipod....

I like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain.
I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne.

 

[COOPERVANE]

99% of the people I fly with who have TP experience are sharper pilots than those who went straight into the jet, just an observation. I did 1000 hours of Lear time in between instructing and 121, but wish I had some TP time.

Flown with a guy or two from Riddle that were SHARP, SHARP, SHARP. Especially on systems/ATC procedures, ETC.. But would not want to be in a serious emergency with them. Give me the turboprop guy.

 

[Mercury]

Awesome. I feel the same way.

As an FO, you can look up the skirt of the girl in 1A. Nice panties!

Ah the memories, I can remember one real vividly, Xmas day, PIT to CLE, B1900, only passenger was a smokin hot 20-something with the shortest skirt I had ever seen, killer legs and the black leather knee boots too, As I welcomed her aboard she says can I sit right here(pointing at 1A) and watch you guys??

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Junkflyer]

Luckily, no turbo prop or rj time. Went from a Beech 18 to a 727. It was a bit of a stretch, but not impossible or even close.

 

[CrownandCoke]

I've never flown a turboprop, I wouldn't have turned my nose up at the opportunity to fly one, however.

I also love my iPod, don't wear a hat, and drink a lot!:beer:

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Very good thread. I really thought I had "skipped" the whole turboprop thing as mentioned. I had 3000+ hours of total time and 5-type ratings when I found out we were getting an EMB-120. Today I have the best of both worlds in that I still fly PIC on the M.84 jet and I get to fly PIC on the "mighty bro" too. I've gotta say, the EMB-120 was the hardest type I've gotten and the plane has my respect. It's definately made me a better pilot.

 

[The_Russian]

I'm in Bro training right now. I agree, it isn't an easy plane to learn. Damn quill.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Good luck Russian. Congrats on moving on to the Bro! ...and welcome to the club brother.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

:beer:

likey beer a lot.

Me too!

I went backwards. I went from flight instructing to a 727, then lears and gulfstreams, then the CRJ, and lastly, the Brasilia.

 

[FN FAL]

The "props are for boats" thing is kind of old...especially considering how bad a lawn ornament regional jets make.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Does anyone feel like they missed anything going from a 172 CFI to a part 121 two crew turboprop FO? Do you feel like you could have learned some real PIC skills by flying freight in a C421/PA31/BE58 (no a/p, no f/a, no radar, no heater, no pressurization, no paint, no captain to babysit you into the real weather) for 4-8 legs a day doing FULL approaches in non-radar by yourself through the mountains at night?

I, unfortunately, did that too. Back in the mid-90s you needed around 500 ME before the commuters would look at you. So, long before I was hired to fly the Jetstream 31 (also known as "the big leagues") I was plugging around the Southeast in a Piper Lance, and later a Cessna 402. No autopilot, no radar, no de-icing equipment that was worth a darn.

We had a weed-sprayer in back that we filled with automotive deicing fluid and used to "deice the airplane" when needed. Flew anywhere from 4 to 10 legs a night. Left at 8 pm got home about 8am. Usually had time for a few hour nap in an FBO lobby or in the back of the airplane somewhere along the way. No GPS back then. One of the airplanes had a panel-mount LORAN -- that was cherry!

I remember the day that I flew my last run and parked the airplane for the last time. I was so excited to go to J31 groundschool I couldn't contain myself. A state-of-the-art turboprop! Man was I ever excited. I had about 2100 total time and a little over 500 multi at the time.

And yes, it made me a better pilot. The experience gained flying freight, and later flying turboprops was added to the bag-of-tricks I carry with me every day. Fuel planning, descent planning, DME arcs, navigation (the old fashioned way...with charts, VORs, and on those Canadian legs... NDBs!)

But flying freight single pilot -- making decisions on my own. Flying approaches to minimums (and occasionally below i'm embarassed to say...) That was the flying that taught me the most... And it was remembering that kind of flying, and the flying we did in the commuters that made me wonder what kind of aviators the pilot-factories are spitting out these days... and whether or not those career gains were made at the expense of valuable experience.

 

[IslandDriver]

What I see more of a problem than no t/P time is no real PIC time. (I am one of thise t/p captains with the low time guys in the right seat)

CFI - 121 FO then to 121 Captain is more of a strain. Good PIC making the calls before you go to 121 FO is more valuable. CFI time can be good...if you are a good CFI not someone just trying to fill a log book.

I see "qualified guys" climb in the sim and the airplane that have poor IFR skills, poor work ethic, poor situational awareness and poor airmanship. Not everyone of course but at least half of the guys.

It is not too bad if they know it and let the instructors and captains mentor and teach them. But sometimes the attitude and the holier than thou attitude makes it tough.

I see it more when they upgrade to captain and can not be taught.

Let the flame begin!

 

[Hootie9750]

I, unfortunately, did that too. Back in the mid-90s you needed around 500 ME before the commuters would look at you. So, long before I was hired to fly the Jetstream 31 (also known as "the big leagues") I was plugging around the Southeast in a Piper Lance, and later a Cessna 402. No autopilot, no radar, no de-icing equipment that was worth a darn.

We had a weed-sprayer in back that we filled with automotive deicing fluid and used to "deice the airplane" when needed. Flew anywhere from 4 to 10 legs a night. Left at 8 pm got home about 8am. Usually had time for a few hour nap in an FBO lobby or in the back of the airplane somewhere along the way. No GPS back then. One of the airplanes had a panel-mount LORAN -- that was cherry!

I remember the day that I flew my last run and parked the airplane for the last time. I was so excited to go to J31 groundschool I couldn't contain myself. A state-of-the-art turboprop! Man was I ever excited. I had about 2100 total time and a little over 500 multi at the time.

And yes, it made me a better pilot. The experience gained flying freight, and later flying turboprops was added to the bag-of-tricks I carry with me every day. Fuel planning, descent planning, DME arcs, navigation (the old fashioned way...with charts, VORs, and on those Canadian legs... NDBs!)

But flying freight single pilot -- making decisions on my own. Flying approaches to minimums (and occasionally below i'm embarassed to say...) That was the flying that taught me the most... And it was remembering that kind of flying, and the flying we did in the commuters that made me wonder what kind of aviators the pilot-factories are spitting out these days... and whether or not those career gains were made at the expense of valuable experience.

Heck ya! Last winter I kept a car ice scraper in my flight bag to nock off the ice after a good spraying with the weed pressure sprayer. Pilot factories don't compare with real experience. I wouldn't trade the freight flying experience for anything.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I flew light piston twins for Airnet. Some tough flying. I do agree with you about all these low timers. I have a hat, and an I-pod. Back in the day, before the Vietnam War, United was hiring people with 250 hours. It's just cyclical.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I found out about some REAL lowtimers last week. NWA was hiring guys with 0, that is "0" time in any airplane INCLUDING 0 time as a passenger!

NWA would interview and hire them. When they got their PPL and then Commercial NWA would give them a class date! Wow!

cliff
YIP

 

[PFTEXPJET]

I have 1100 PIC in the Mighty Beech 1900D, flew in the Pit system and the KC system. Great experience, nothing like 6 to 9 legs, every other leg flying down to mins. I have an ipod, got it for fathers day and I have gray hair. I fly the emb-145 now as a captain and I love it but I do miss the beech, just not the pay.

 

[AvroGuy]

Any one who has flown a emb 130-145 has basically flown a turbo prop. That jet was designed as a transition jet. In other words, It has the benifits of a jet without the jet problems such as the coffin corner ( that is where the highspeed buffet and low speed buffet are very close)

 

[BenderGonzales]

With all due respect I don't think that comparing an E145 to a Jetstream, Metroliner, Bandit, or Shorts 330/360 is really apples-to-apples.

 

[BoilerUP]

With all due respect I don't think that comparing an E145 to a Jetstream, Metroliner, Bandit, or Shorts 330/360 is really apples-to-apples.

I somewhat disagree.

The taco rocket and the lawn dart are flying similar routes to the J-ball, sewer tube, Bandit and Flying Box did 10-15 years ago...along with medium-length routes flown by DC-9s, F28s-F100s, 727s and 737s. Many passengers now regard 50 seat RJs with the same disdain as Beech 1900s, Saabs or Dashes (or Jetstreams or Metros) as being small and noisy, with no jetbridges and small or nonexistant overhead bins. Sure RJs have a ton more automation and speed than 220kt turboprops and can get above most weather, but everyone is still regarded as a "commuter pilot" to the uninformed masses.

I never flew a Jetstream but I worked with many people that did and have nothing but the utmost respect for those who choose to.

As I said earlier, the 50 seat RJ is the 19 seat turboprop of this decade.

 

[Gofish]

I iron my shirts...don't like the hat (contributes to male pattern baldness)...have never owned an iPod...no spikes or gel in my military high-and-tight haircut. Funny thing is I fly with a few captains who are younger than me and have spiked hair and ipods...backpacks too.

I'd like to think mainlines will stop giving up scope and RJ's will return their intended purpose...prolly a pipe dream.

 

[jtrain609]

Those that say that the RJs are the same as the 1900, couldn't make it through a week out on the line actually flying the aeroplane.

 

[Motive Flow]

Props are for boats, and boots are for cowboys!

Went from light twin to ERJ FO. Upgraded to Capt. on the J-41. Back on the Lawn Dart as a Capt. Learned a lot as an MEI. Learned a lot as an ERJ FO. Learned a lot as a TP Capt. Still learning a lot as an ERJ Capt.

No iPod, but seriously considering XM Radio!

 

[rfa]

I'm sticking with the 1900 and a stable commuter outfit. I want to rack those hours that count fast. Plus, the regionals make me sick. ...scabs all of them I tell you! ...for the first two years they get 19 seat pay for a 50+ seat jet! <G>





















...and on the serious side, its probably the last bit of real flying I'll be doing.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I flew the mighty 1900D for 3500 hours with most of that time in DEN and the mountains. That experience was invaluable, in my opinion.

A few of my friends who moved into RJ's said that their hand-flying skills were the best they ever were when they flew the no-autopliot Beeches. I know that I find it takes more effort to keep up the raw-data skills in a much better-equipped jet.

I think the 1900D was great experience to have and a fun plane to fly. But I prefer the paycheck and the better equipment at my current job.

 

[purduej]

Shoot, a friend's dad was hired by United with a private certicate. It's not like this is a new thing. I would have gladly taken a prop (in fact was hoping for the Dash-8), but a jet company called first, so there we are. Just hand fly raw data in the jet to keep yourself up to speed, use the the magic "F/D" button. Automation is great for cruise, but I took the job to fly, not to push buttons.

No hat (just one more thing to lose), ironed shirt and pants, regular hair. I love my ipod too, but still don't understand walking around the terminal with it on, even when not in uniform.