Pilots detained in Brazil

[FN FAL]

FN FAL, what is your deal? You're like an insane vulture with an accident/crime fixation and lastworditis.

I'm insane because you guys don't know the definition of varying degrees of criminal negligence?

No, I'm insane to think that you guys would take a hint and realize that in the criminal justice system, there is no such thing as an accident.

Go ahead and do your best, I got lots of time and plenty of news stories to read...be one.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL, what is your deal? You're like an insane vulture with an accident/crime fixation and lastworditis.

Here you go...talk to the train:

Story originally printed in the La Crosse Tribune or online at

http://www.lacrossetribune.com





Man on train tracks killed while making obscene gesture at train
By The Associated Press

KENOSHA, Wis. — An 18-year-old man was struck and killed by a train as he reportedly stood on the tracks and made an obscene gesture at the train, the Kenosha Sheriff’s Department said Saturday.

Andrew J. Grosenick and Keith A. Lien, 18, both of Silver Lake, were using the tracks as a short cut home around 11:30 p.m. Friday, Lien told deputies.

Authorities say they believe both men were intoxicated at the time.

A train approached and both men got off the tracks, but Grosenick walked back onto the track, Lien told investigators.

The Wisconsin Central Railroad conductor told authorities he also saw Grosenick return to the track, raise his arm and “flip off” the train.

The train struck Grosenick, who was declared dead at the scene.

Lien was not injured but was taken to a hospital for what the sheriff’s department said was an “extreme state of intoxication.”

The accident remained under investigation.


All stories copyright 2000 - 2005 La Crosse Tribune and other attributed sources.

 

[pilot141]

What it comes down to is FN FAL being an internet a$$.

He came into the thread at post #39 on page three, and quickly derailed the thread into hair-splitting semantics. Add to that the fact that he must absolutely, positively have the last word and you have 4 pages of nonsense unrelated to the topic at hand.

USA Today ran a story today about the pilots in Brazil (remember them?) Seems they have a Brazilian lawyer working for them now. The article did quote someone as saying that the criminalization of accidents is an "alarming trend", citing the ATC guys in Switzerland in 2002 and a couple of others.

Anyone want to actually discuss what's going on with these guys and ignore the chaff?

 

[handlesaregay]

Anyone want to actually discuss what's going on with these guys and ignore the chaff?

You're right. I originally posted an article but I think I would rather get back on topic also.

 

[ackattacker]

USA Today ran a story today about the pilots in Brazil (remember them?) Seems they have a Brazilian lawyer working for them now. The article did quote someone as saying that the criminalization of accidents is an "alarming trend", citing the ATC guys in Switzerland in 2002 and a couple of others.

Anyone want to actually discuss what's going on with these guys and ignore the chaff?

I think this is the article you are talking about:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-10-aviation-debate_x.htm

Criminal investigations after an accident are part of "an increasing and alarming trend," said William Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation, a safety group. "This tends to get in the way of the safety investigation, whose purpose is to find the causes and prevent future tragedies," Voss said.
"There is nothing like the threat of criminal charges to put a chill on an accident investigation," said Peter Goelz, former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board.

 

[pilot141]

Yep, that's the one.

Heck, the Air Force figured this out years ago. The Safety Investigation Board (SIB) has no punitive power and you must talk to them. The Accident Investigation Board (AIB) is separate, and does have punitive power. Before you talk to the AIB you lawyer up and shut your mouth, because they must do their own investigation.

If the guys in Brazil are facing a combined safety/criminal investigation how talkative will they be? Has Brazil ever heard of the ASRS program?

The essential question is: what is your goal? Is it to punish whoever you can or to prevent another accident? Those two goals do not always coincide.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Does anyone know the history and background of these 2 pilots? Are they ex-airline or strictly GA or Other (ok, military might count, but it can't be the only excuse [heh, heh])

 

[pilot141]

The FO is a furloughed AA guy with a lot of jet experience.

 

[handlesaregay]

"There is nothing like the threat of criminal charges to put a chill on an accident investigation," said Peter Goelz, former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board.

You can say that again. Every person from the pilots to the guy responsible for checking the runway for debris could face manslaughter charges if they link them to a crash. Can you imagine it? Some poor guy driving a truck who didn't see a hunk of metal on the runway could face 300+ counts of involuntary manslaughter. At least that seems to be the way some people want it. "Well maybe they'll be more careful..." right?

 

[pilot141]

Well if you actually let the criminal lagal system have a go at aviation then you will end up with nothing being an "accident".

And as I pointed out before (with an attempt at humor and sarcasm that went over ONE person's head), it won't change a damn thing as far as pilots/controllers go. There are ALWAYS lives on the line (most importantly my own!) - lining up criminal charges won't make anyone more "careful". It will just get the lawyers more money.

 

[FN FAL]

"lining up criminal charges won't make anyone more "careful".

Stupid is as stupid does. Convictions for negligence crimes sends a message...turn a deaf ear, pay the price and whine about it later.

The criminal justice sytem is not having a go at aviation, no more than sitting in a vehicle makes a criminal act a lawful one.

 

[pilot141]

User CP

Ignore list

FN FAL

Ahhhh...much better. I think the IQ of this discussion just went up about 20 points.

 

[FN FAL]

User CP

Ignore list

FN FAL

Ahhhh...much better. I think the IQ of this discussion just went up about 20 points.

Wahahahaha...

 

[handlesaregay]

Well if you actually let the criminal lagal system have a go at aviation then you will end up with nothing being an "accident".

According to FNFAL there is no such thing as an accident. It's merely a crime that isn't being prosecuted.

No, I'm insane to think that you guys would take a hint and realize that in the criminal justice system, there is no such thing as an accident.

I guess I've been living in a dream world up until now. There is no spoon.

 

[Papps]

Are you saying they intended to hit that airliner?

That's a new one.

no. Im saying there was probably an miscommunication that put someone at the wrong alt. Most pilots don't fly wrong altitudes for the hell of it. I've had emergencies that made me descend through the flight levels and ATC wasn't communicating with us for some reason. Its a very uneasy feeling being high and fast and knowing your not in your protected chunk of airspace. You feel like your going to get clipped at any second. I doubt someone would knowingly do that to themselves.

 

[FN FAL]

According to FNFAL there is no such thing as an accident. It's merely a crime that isn't being prosecuted.

Excuse me for "merely" informing you that there may be more than FAA administrative action in the event of an "accident".

Should you find yourself surviving one of these, I'd suggest you blurt out anything that comes to your mind at the first police officer that arrives at the scene. Like I said, you can always take it back later...not.

 

[A Squared]

Has Brazil ever heard of the ASRS program?

Not disagreeing with your perspective, but I don't believe that the ASRS does anything for you in the case of an accident, and I'm pretty certain that it won't protect you from any criminal prosecution in any event.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Wahahahaha...

Hey look, it's Greta Van FNFAL whining and sharing such a vast knowledge of the legal system with us all. Thats about all he's good for.

 

[FN FAL]

Hey look, it's Greta Van FNFAL whining and sharing such a vast knowledge of the legal system with us all. Thats about all he's good for.

Look, it is the rose colored glasses neo-con, who brings only an empty mind and a full diaper to the discussion.

 

[FN FAL]

Not disagreeing with your perspective, but I don't believe that the ASRS does anything for you in the case of an accident, and I'm pretty certain that it won't protect you from any criminal prosecution in any event.

Maybe in Brazil it would.

Oh you said ASRS, I thought he said "A SKS". Never mind.