Pilots detained in Brazil

[handlesaregay]

FN FAL,

Thanks for the clarification. Although I'm not up on all the legal mumbo jumbo my basic premise was correct, the law really is changing. What was once civil is now becoming criminal. And not only can they get you for "negligence" but also for not excercising "reasonable care", regardless of whether you're aware of the risk. I'm not sure what the implications are for aviation but I think we as pilots owe to ourselves to be sitting up and paying attention to this stuff, before the day comes when AOPA has to start providing civil and criminal defense attorneys.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL,

Thanks for the clarification. Although I'm not up on all the legal mumbo jumbo my basic premise was correct, the law really is changing. What was once civil is now becoming criminal. And not only can they get you for "negligence" but also for not excercising "reasonable care", regardless of whether you're aware of the risk. I'm not sure what the implications are for aviation but I think we as pilots owe to ourselves to be sitting up and paying attention to this stuff, before the day comes when AOPA has to start providing civil and criminal defense attorneys.

You're welcome...just because I post what I know and see, that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it wholeheartedly.

However, think about your definition in your post and imagine how simple it was that your scenarios actually lined up with the definitions between reckless and negligent homicide...coincidence? No.

There was a progression and from what I can tell it started in the 70's and is still evolving to this day.

Here's something else to keep in mind. One is prosecutorial discretion. Meaning the prosecutor can choose which cases to try and which cases to not try.

The other thing, we're in an unprecedented low crime era, even though the US population has grown by almost 70 million people in the last 30 years. What else do these guys have to do but try negligence cases in criminal court?

But don't you worry, with the oncomming crappy economy and the return of all the gulf war vets, combined with criminologist's forecasts of a generation of criminal "super predators", I'm sure that the next great violent crime wave will make negligence crimes the plea bargain poster child. Where there's light, there's hope.

 

[handlesaregay]

But don't you worry, with the oncomming crappy economy and the return of all the gulf war vets, combined with criminologist's forecasts of a generation of criminal "super predators", I'm sure that the next great violent crime wave will make negligence crimes the plea bargain poster child. Where there's light, there's hope.

Only a pilot could be that cynical.

 

[FN FAL]

Only a pilot could be that cynical.

haha...I get the crack, but I'm a "black comedian", not a cynic...there's a difference you know.

By the way, all I said is true; criminologists predict the "superpredator", crime waves occur after a prolonged military conflict ends and maybe the ecomony isn't going to tank, but the signs do point to a period of sucking.

A review of FBI/Bureau of Justice Statistics crime stats put us at a 15 year low for crime of all kinds. Currently England has double the rape, burglary, robbery and violent crime as the US in per capita crimes. All good things come to an end...I think we are on the verge of an upswing in violent crimes, all things considered.

Negligence crimes have evoloved during a 15 year unprecedented low violent crime era...things that make you go hmmmmm?

Something to think about...we're in an era in America where crime is at it's lowest, however politicians are at their highest in "get tough on crime" election rhetoric. Hence the "n" word.

 

[siucavflight]

No, I would not want her sent to the big house since she is my daughter. But if my daughter was speeding and crashed into your daughter and killed her, would you want my daughter punished? My guess is....probably.

No, not at all because it would be an accident.

 

[AngelKing]

No, not at all because it would be an accident.

yyeeaaahhhh rriiiggghhhttt


AK

 

[siucavflight]

yyeeaaahhhh rriiiggghhhttt


AK

You can think what you want, but two very, very close friends of mine were killed in a car crash, accident, other guys fault he missed the stop sign, blew through an intersection, he walked away. No one held him at fault, he was sober and made a mistake, he came to the funeral paid his respect, and has since become very very close with both families, goes to all of the family functions that he is inveited too, they want to see him get better mentally, every day of his life he has to live with killing two 22 year old girls.

 

[AngelKing]

You can think what you want, but two very, very close friends of mine were killed in a car crash, accident, other guys fault he missed the stop sign, blew through an intersection, he walked away. No one held him at fault, he was sober and made a mistake, he came to the funeral paid his respect, and has since become very very close with both families, goes to all of the family functions that he is inveited too, they want to see him get better mentally, every day of his life he has to live with killing two 22 year old girls.

You are still missing the point! It was an accident, he didn't do anything wrong on purpose. How hard is this to grasp!

If the guy that ran the stop sign had been excessively speeding or drunk and ran the stop sign, then it is n-o-t an a-c-c-i-d-e-n-t.


AK

 

[FN FAL]

You are still missing the point! It was an accident, he didn't do anything wrong on purpose. How hard is this to grasp!

If the guy that ran the stop sign had been excessively speeding or drunk and ran the stop sign, then it is n-o-t an a-c-c-i-d-e-n-t.


AK

If you're sober but mentally impaired, it's ok. There's no law against being stupid...in fact the government encourages it, because it keeps them in jobs.

 

[FN FAL]

You can think what you want, but two very, very close friends of mine were killed in a car crash, accident, other guys fault he missed the stop sign, blew through an intersection, he walked away. No one held him at fault, he was sober and made a mistake, he came to the funeral paid his respect, and has since become very very close with both families, goes to all of the family functions that he is inveited too, they want to see him get better mentally, every day of his life he has to live with killing two 22 year old girls.

When the prosecutor uses his discretion to charge you for the same thing when you make your "accident", you can try to sue for discrimination but no one will hear that case.

 

[siucavflight]

You are still missing the point! It was an accident, he didn't do anything wrong on purpose. How hard is this to grasp!

If the guy that ran the stop sign had been excessively speeding or drunk and ran the stop sign, then it is n-o-t an a-c-c-i-d-e-n-t.


AK

If it is not an accident then what is it? This just happened, how do you know what the reason was? Did they mean to do it? And what if they were a thousand feet off of altitude? Have you never mis understood an ATC instruction? Have you never forgotten what altitude to hold?

 

[AngelKing]

If it is not an accident then what is it? This just happened, how do you know what the reason was? Did they mean to do it? And what if they were a thousand feet off of altitude? Have you never mis understood an ATC instruction? Have you never forgotten what altitude to hold?

I don;t know what the reason was. Have you been reading the thread? The "speculation" was they were not flying their assigned altitude on purpose. If you go back and read the thread, you will see, I said before every sentence"if that is what happened"

And yes I have And yes I have, But never on purpose.


AK

 

[pilot141]

Looks like its getting ugly down there.

From AvWeb:

"Lepore and Paladino were quoted as saying they did not turn off the transponder and that they were flying at the proper altitude, assertions that have made Brazilian authorities 'furious', according to news reports out of Brazil."

Sooooo.....saying that you were doing nothing wrong makes the Brazilian cops "furious". Yeah, this will be a fair trial.....

 

[Midnight Flyer]

WOW. It looks like they are going to face 155 counts of involuntary manslaughter if the government finds them "guilty". Does anyone know if US pilots have ever been convicted of something like this in the past when flying in a foriegn country?

Maybe some of the pilots over here would start paying attention and not taking off on the wrong runway if they knew there was a legal consequence for their actions (like facing involuntary manslaughter charges).

 

[Publishers]

Having spent a good deal of time all over the world for this business, I think you can safely assume that the average American has little appreciation for other cultures and some feeling that if they get in trouble, the US government will come riding to the rescue. Not so!!
There is also a feeling that we think our way is the only way. That somehow these countries are nor worthy or do not have a government that is credible or courts that understand what we know. Bull.
We have all kinds of circumstances here for accidents being more than civil matters. Manslaughter as example-- vehicular homicide.
Just like here, we need to let this play out and see what happens. After all, we never make any kneejerk reactions around here.

 

[handlesaregay]

Maybe some of the pilots over here would start paying attention and not taking off on the wrong runway if they knew there was a legal consequence for their actions (like facing involuntary manslaughter charges).

Careful what you wish for.

 

[FN FAL]

If it is not an accident then what is it? This just happened, how do you know what the reason was? Did they mean to do it? And what if they were a thousand feet off of altitude? Have you never mis understood an ATC instruction? Have you never forgotten what altitude to hold?

Kids flying airplanes? That can't end well.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Maybe some of the pilots over here would start paying attention and not taking off on the wrong runway if they knew there was a legal consequence for their actions (like facing involuntary manslaughter charges).

Wow.........

 

[handlesaregay]

As if death wasn't a big enough motivator.

 

[pilot141]

Maybe some of the pilots over here would start paying attention and not taking off on the wrong runway if they knew there was a legal consequence for their actions (like facing involuntary manslaughter charges).

Yep, that would sure fix the problem.

"Hey Joe, do you want to die in a fire in the next 5 minutes?"

"Sounds good....how would you like to spend the next 6 weeks in the hospital, be paralyzed for the rest of your life and have my death and those of every person in back weighing on your conscience until your dying day?"

"Sign me up! Set takeoff thrust........WAIT! Wait just a damn minute Joe!"

"What?"

"Some genius at FlightInfo.com clued me in that we might face criminal charges if we screw up! I can't have manslaughter charges filed against me - how would I ever defend myself while hooked up to a respirator?"

"You're right - I'd hate to have those charges hanging over my greiving wife and kids. Let's re-evaluate everything we've done up to this point."

Thank you random FlightInfo.com legal genius!!!!!!!!!!!!