Pilot Union Wants To Reopen Airline Contracts

[DrewBlows]

This sounds good. I'm glad the union is taking a stand, but how exactly are they going to do it? Are we just going to ask management to reopen negotiations? Does Prater have pictures of the CEOs in compromising situations? I hope so.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm outside of Toontown (Wash DC) these days, about 45 minutes away from Dulles and an hour from DCA or BWI...

 

[Swaayze]

Take a look at what the Morons at AWA / AAA are trying to do.............

8+30 rest
Stand ups

So Much for Takin It Back !!! We are offering concessions (at an airline that jus tmade 500 Million dollars last year) !!!

FWIW regarding the 8+30, this is from the public code-a-phone a month or so ago:

There have been questions by pilots concerning the T/A’d (tentatively agreed upon) rest provisions described in the February 16th JNC Update.

First and foremost, it is important to understand that the new agreed upon rest provisions are an improvement over the current East contract. Secondly, it is important to know that in the JNC Update, the negotiators wrote in terms of required “Rest” time” and not block to block time which would require adding the pre-flight and post-flight time, currently 1:15 to the required rest time. The following bullet points illustrate the agreed upon changes:
·Current East required “Rest” time is 8:30 reducible to 8+00
·Newly T/A’d “Rest” 9:30. This is reducible only to 8:30.
·This 8:30 reduction may only occur once in a pairing. All other rest periods in a trip must be at or above 9+30. Any rest period below 9+30 triggers the following restrictions for the following duty day:
- Maximum scheduled duty 10+00 hrs.
- Maximum of three scheduled legs.
- Subsequent rest must not be less than 12+00 hrs.
- Also, Restricted to only mutually agreed upon stations which can have reduced rest, either scheduled or irregular ops and specific hotel requirements for those stations that are approved.

 

[Lear70]

And that makes it better how?

Anything less than 10 hours of rest is unsafe.

Most people need about 7 hours of rack time just to avoid fatigue. Another hour to get ready, half an hour to and from the airport including waiting for van, clearing security the next morning, etc makes another hour, plus an extra hour for getting food (half hour on each side of the clock).

That's 10 hours. Take an hour and a half from that means you either don't get dinner, and get an hour less sleep (6 hours), OR you don't get breakfast and get an hour less sleep (6 hours), OR you get 1 1/2 hours less sleep (5 1/2).

They did that at the REGIONAL I was at. Once each pairing. Followed by comp rest. Just like that paragraph you quoted.

It was miserable. Walking zombie by the end of your 3rd leg and many times borderline unsafe due to fatigue, especially if you had to commute in the day of that reduced rest and were already up and moving for 14, 16, even 18 hours before you got into the rack for that reduced rest.

Thank GOD my current carrier doesn't schedule like that. Irregular Ops is the ONLY excuse for that kind of reduced rest period, and it should automatically trigger a max of 2 legs back into domicile to be replaced by a reserve crew with full pay protection and a company-paid hotel in domicile until the trip can be resumed the following day OR released with full pay for the remainder of the trip.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We need to march on D.C.--pilots, FA's, mechs, rampers, agents--anyone who has gotten screwed by management. And we need to start the march on K Street where all the lobbying firms are located to point out that Congress is owned by the lobbyists.

The only way to get Congress to put pressure on CEO's is by paying them or embarrassing them. We don't have enough money to outspend the CEO's and buy a Congressman so we've got to make our case public. TC

That would be May 17th. Are you game?


http://www.17may07.org/day_of_action.htm

 

[Swaayze]

And that makes it better how?

Anything less than 10 hours of rest is unsafe.

...... Followed by comp rest. Just like that paragraph you quoted.

First, you're preaching to the choir. I agree with pretty much your whole post on the issues of rest. FTDT is a hotbutton with me and RR (especially scheduled) is ridiculous. I was simply pointing out that they're looking to better their current conditions, not (as you seem to claim) scheduled to 8+ but rather to 9+ with the ability to go < 9+30 only for operational delays, not scheduled.

12+00 is not necessarily a normal comp rest. Often 10+00 is a legal comp rest. The 10+00 duty day and 3 leg limits following are not FAA based at all. All of these limits are improvements over FAA requirements.

So basically they've improved somewhat on what the company and the FAA have rights to at this point, contrary to your assertion. I don't have any info on other LCC negotiations at this point so I'm not informed to discuss your other claims.

BTW I'm not looking to get in a p'ing match here. I just prefer that facts are used to support one's opinions. Whether by choice or simple error your statement didn't seem to me to be completely factual so I wanted to provide what little info I have about it.

Regards.

 

[Lear70]

First, it was YOUR post on the issue that made it sound like 8:30 rest time was what it could be reduced to. If I misunderstood the way you intended it, my apologies.

Second, I know 121.471(b) forwards and backwards and have testified in federal court regarding the scheduling of rest, compensatory rest, and related issues.

I never said the 3 leg max was an FAA limit. Where did you get that? I never said those proposed limits at UAir weren't better than FAR limits. Again, I don't know where you're going with that? It's a tangent that I never even discussed.

The POINT is that it's still an unbelievably crappy agreement, whether it's better than current book or not, and I would vote it down if it came in a T.A.

Originally Posted by AA717driver
We need to march on D.C.--pilots, FA's, mechs, rampers, agents--anyone who has gotten screwed by management. And we need to start the march on K Street where all the lobbying firms are located to point out that Congress is owned by the lobbyists.

The only way to get Congress to put pressure on CEO's is by paying them or embarrassing them. We don't have enough money to outspend the CEO's and buy a Congressman so we've got to make our case public. TC

That would be May 17th. Are you game?


http://www.17may07.org/day_of_action.htm

http://www.17may07.org/day_of_action.htm
That's great, Rez. Now when is ALPA going to announce that they're on board with it?

I'm sorry, I hear that giant sucking silence over at Herndon again.

If ALPA and the CAPA unions would get on board with it, I'd be there. A couple thousand uniformed pilots would look GREAT in the center of that march!

Would probably get more attention as well. The public would LOVE that one...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's great, Rez. Now when is ALPA going to announce that they're on board with it?

Do they HAVE to?

I'm sorry, I hear that giant sucking silence over at Herndon again.

What does that have to do with it...

If ALPA and the CAPA unions would get on board with it, I'd be there. A couple thousand uniformed pilots would look GREAT in the center of that march!

Why do you need ALPA or CAPA there. Why can't you just show up? I don't get it?

Would probably get more attention as well. The public would LOVE that one...

So show up....

 

[Lear70]

Why do you need ALPA or CAPA there. Why can't you just show up? I don't get it?

Yes you do, you're just playing dumb (and doing a good job of it).

Again, with bold, to make it blatantly obvious.

If ALPA and the CAPA unions would get on board with it, I'd be there. A couple thousand uniformed pilots would look GREAT in the center of that march!

In other words, one uniformed pilot in the center of a mass of several thousand mechanics and other techs would go almost unnoticed.

1,000+ uniformed pilots marching in unison at the core would be a huge eye catcher.

One person alone can't do jack sh*t. It takes an organized group to make a difference at any level. You of all people should recognize this obvious fact in labor relations.

You really irritate me when you deliberately try to ignore an argument because you have no defense for it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes you do, you're just playing dumb (and doing a good job of it).

Let's hold off on that...

Again, with bold, to make it blatantly obvious.

For whom....?

In other words, one uniformed pilot in the center of a mass of several thousand mechanics and other techs would go almost unnoticed.

It is called the labor movement!!!! AFL-CIO. But you still don't get it...

1,000+ uniformed pilots marching in unison at the core would be a huge eye catcher.

You mean 999. Cause your followership won't budge unless there is "leadership" that meets your standards....

One person alone can't do jack sh*t. It takes an organized group to make a difference at any level. You of all people should recognize this obvious fact in labor relations.

But you can't organize yourself to show up....

You really irritate me when you deliberately try to ignore an argument because you have no defense for it.

Just start particpating in this career. Show up....

 

[Lear70]

It is called the labor movement!!!! AFL-CIO. But you still don't get it...

No... it's YOU who's deliberately CHOOSING not to get it, because your precious ALPA won't get off it's a*s and participate. I'd bet good money that if ALPA or even our NPA contacted the AFL-CIO leadership and offered our support and attendance, they'd certainly take us up on our offer, due to the increased exposure of uniformed pilots.

You mean 999. Cause your followership won't budge unless there is "leadership" that meets your standards....

What leadership FOR PILOTS is going to attend?

Anyone?

Bueler?

Nope. And certainly not Prater or any other ALPA leaders.

But you can't organize yourself to show up....

Again, because you're obviously not getting it:

JUST ME showing up isn't going to do a whole lot of good.

I'm not the elected leader of anything, much less the NPA, CAPA, or ALPA. My job is to voice my thoughts and opinions to my elected leadership so THEY can organize and lead the other pilots, then show up to THOSE ORGANIZED EVENTS.

Just start particpating in this career. Show up....

I do participate in my career. I show up at everything my union asks me to.

Are YOU going up there to march?

Didn't think so.

Again, PILOT UNION LEADERSHIP is responsible to organize these types of rallies. I'll be happy to attend WHEN OUR LEADERS BOTHER TO SHOW UP.

You just can't debate the FACT that ALPA isn't trying to get involved with this. You'd rather try to point fingers than defend the indefensible. I understand. You have no ground to stand on, so you shift blame.

You'd get a lot more respect from me and others if you'd simply say, "You know what, it would be great for ALPA to get involved. I'm going to call my status rep, MEC Chair, and Herndon to voice my thoughts of organizing the pilots for this rally or one like it if the AFL-CIO doesn't want to share."

p.s. Yes, I already wrote a letter to our NPA Pres.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No... it's YOU who's deliberately CHOOSING not to get it, because your precious ALPA won't get off it's a*s and participate. I'd bet good money that if ALPA or even our NPA contacted the AFL-CIO leadership and offered our support and attendance, they'd certainly take us up on our offer, due to the increased exposure of uniformed pilots

.

ALPA is a member of the AFL-CIO. But it doesn't matter...

What leadership FOR PILOTS is going to attend?

Anyone?

Bueler?

Nope. And certainly not Prater or any other ALPA leaders.

Why do they need to show up? Why can't any pilot show up?

Again, because you're obviously not getting it:

JUST ME showing up isn't going to do a whole lot of good.

You are self defeating.... our own worse enemy. Combined with your weak and pathetic excuses not to contribute to ALPA-PAC or CAPA-PAC...

If it is ok for you to think this way then every pilot can think this way....
same with LEC meeting particpations... no wonder there is a leadership/followership probelm with unions...

I'm not the elected leader of anything

,

Imagine if you did take a leadership mentality...

My job is to voice my thoughts and opinions to my elected leadership so THEY can organize and lead the other pilots, then show up to THOSE ORGANIZED EVENTS.

Just show up...

I do participate in my career. I show up at everything my union asks me to.

good! Keep it up....

Are YOU going up there to march?

In addition to the picketing events last year for my airline and others... of course...

Didn't think so.

About what?

Again, PILOT UNION LEADERSHIP is responsible to organize these types of rallies. I'll be happy to attend WHEN OUR LEADERS BOTHER TO SHOW UP.

A mexican stand off with your career?

You just can't debate the FACT that ALPA isn't trying to get involved with this. You'd rather try to point fingers than defend the indefensible. I understand. You have no ground to stand on, so you shift blame.

Just show up.

You'd get a lot more respect from me and others if you'd simply say, "You know what, it would be great for ALPA to get involved. I'm going to call my status rep, MEC Chair, and Herndon to voice my thoughts of organizing the pilots for this rally or one like it if the AFL-CIO doesn't want to share."

This has been out for over a week. I don't see anything on the NPA website, but it might be in themembers only section... but again... why can't you show up regardless?

https://crewroom.alpa.org/DesktopMo...sView.aspx?itemid=7715&ModuleId=8300&Tabid=73

May 17: Pilots Gather in D.C.
As part of ALPA's “Takin’ It Back” campaign, the union's president, Capt. John Prater, is personally inviting the Association's members and their families and friends to participate in the 2007 Transportation Day of Action on May 17 in Washington, D.C. The primary event will take place in the shadow of the U.S. Capitol. ALPA members will gather for a Pre-Rally Event at 10 a.m. A host of distinguished speakers, including Prater are lined up for the noon Rally.
Greedy corporations and a heartless administration initiated an all-out assault on transportation workers after 9/11. Managements and anti-worker politicians used bankruptcy, oil prices, the Iraq War, and even the threat of liquidation as anti-union weapons.
This year, however, pilots and other transportation workers are taking their professions back. The airline industry will see a healthy profit, providing unions an opportunity to renegotiate with managements now—rejuvenating destroyed pensions, shrunken paychecks, trashed work rules, and shattered lives.
“The only way we can stop the ‘race to the bottom’ and take back what is rightfully ours is to work together, with cooperation and mutual support. Whatever harms one pilot harms the entire profession,” Prater says. “Show your mutual support for the entire transportation industry by attending the May 17 Transportation Workers Day of Action.”
The IAM organized this event, saying that “transportation workers need a government that will work with unions to develop a pro-worker labor policy, protect and promote U.S. jobs, defend pensions and Social Security, and make affordable and quality health care for all Americans a priority. We demand fairness – Enough is Enough!”
“I challenge our members today to rise to the challenge and stand up for our profession and, more importantly, for each other,” Prater says. “We are union pilots, and we’re takin’ it back.”
Stay tuned for more information on this event, including transportation and other logistics.
​

p.s. Yes, I already wrote a letter to our NPA Pres.

It would be really great if your NPA leadership, despite the fact that they are not AFL-CIO, to particpate....

(I checked your website and didn't see AFL-CIO affiliation...)




Just show up...

 

[Lear70]

This has been out for over a week. I don't see anything on the NPA website, but it might be in themembers only section... but again... why can't you show up regardless?

https://crewroom.alpa.org/DesktopMo...sView.aspx?itemid=7715&ModuleId=8300&Tabid=73

May 17: Pilots Gather in D.C.
As part of ALPA's “Takin’ It Back” campaign, the union's president, Capt. John Prater, is personally inviting the Association's members and their families and friends to participate in the 2007 Transportation Day of Action on May 17 in Washington, D.C. The primary event will take place in the shadow of the U.S. Capitol. ALPA members will gather for a Pre-Rally Event at 10 a.m. A host of distinguished speakers, including Prater are lined up for the noon Rally.
Greedy corporations and a heartless administration initiated an all-out assault on transportation workers after 9/11. Managements and anti-worker politicians used bankruptcy, oil prices, the Iraq War, and even the threat of liquidation as anti-union weapons.
This year, however, pilots and other transportation workers are taking their professions back. The airline industry will see a healthy profit, providing unions an opportunity to renegotiate with managements now—rejuvenating destroyed pensions, shrunken paychecks, trashed work rules, and shattered lives.
“The only way we can stop the ‘race to the bottom’ and take back what is rightfully ours is to work together, with cooperation and mutual support. Whatever harms one pilot harms the entire profession,” Prater says. “Show your mutual support for the entire transportation industry by attending the May 17 Transportation Workers Day of Action.”
The IAM organized this event, saying that “transportation workers need a government that will work with unions to develop a pro-worker labor policy, protect and promote U.S. jobs, defend pensions and Social Security, and make affordable and quality health care for all Americans a priority. We demand fairness – Enough is Enough!”
“I challenge our members today to rise to the challenge and stand up for our profession and, more importantly, for each other,” Prater says. “We are union pilots, and we’re takin’ it back.”
Stay tuned for more information on this event, including transportation and other logistics.
​

Why didn't you just say so in the first place instead of arguing a point you can't possibly hope to win?

Incidentally, note the https: on the front of that link. It means I can't see it. For everyone else, try this in the public section:

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...sView.aspx?itemid=7715&ModuleId=8300&Tabid=73

It would be really great if your NPA leadership, despite the fact that they are not AFL-CIO, to particpate....

(I checked your website and didn't see AFL-CIO affiliation...)

I'm pretty sure there's not any.

And it's not in the Member's section, either.

Just show up...

Thanks. Now that I know there will be an actually MEANINGFUL showing of other pilots, I will, regardless of whether the NPA chooses to attend or not.

Without a large showing, it would be pointless, and you know it.

You could have just said so... Jeez man, sometimes I think you argue a defenseless position just for the sake of the argument itself.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We just have different mentalities.... there is a recent grassroots movement: If one ALPA pilot has a problem then every ALPA pilot has a problem. It only works if each pilot takes on that mentality.

Some think we need to further unify ALPA before we expand, however, I believe it really means and the long term effective is "if an Air Line Pilot has a problem, then all Air Line Pilots have a problem.

The next step? If a laborer has a problem, then all laborers have a problem.

 

[CopilotDoug]

He said the union would seek to change work rules and wage scales incrementally and not wait until contracts expire at the end of the decade.

Ok....show me where Prater is making a stand, please??? I don't see an ultimatum issued by Pratter ANYWHERE in this article. Is he banking on good faith in management to re-open the contracts prematurely? You gotta be kidding me! I can already tell you what management's response has been/will be...NO. I'm all for "takin' it back" but it's gotten to the point where we need to take back ALOT and it's going to take extreme measures. But on the other hand, Prater is preaching the wonders of credibility. The pilots have leverage, but what good is it if they don't use it?

It ticks me off to see Prater get everybody's hopes up, because we know he will waffle under the guise of a convenient excuse. I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like business as usual at ALPA

 

[Lear70]

Some think we need to further unify ALPA before we expand

And, after 15 years in the industry, I'd agree with them.

Everyone's in it for themselves.

No one takes pride in their career anymore, they've been beat to death by management and their own MEC's in many cases.

No one wants to raise the bar or carry the torch for anyone else, if it means hardship for them in doing so.

That's why unions are ineffective now. In past decades the LEADERSHIP was WILLING to do whatever it took because that's what their constituency wanted. Now,,, not so much.

I'm wondering if we'll EVER see another airline with another star over their ALPA pin. I personally doubt it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ok....show me where Prater is making a stand, please??? I don't see an ultimatum issued by Pratter ANYWHERE in this article. Is he banking on good faith in management to re-open the contracts prematurely? You gotta be kidding me! I can already tell you what management's response has been/will be...NO. I'm all for "takin' it back" but it's gotten to the point where we need to take back ALOT and it's going to take extreme measures. But on the other hand, Prater is preaching the wonders of credibility. The pilots have leverage, but what good is it if they don't use it?

I liken your post above to watching a movie about hostages. Whereas you the viewr are saying to the hostages.. "forget abot the gun to your head, just kick their asses!"

In case you haven't noticed.. the gov't and industry have all the power. This was set up 200+ years ago...

It ticks me off to see Prater get everybody's hopes up, because we know he will waffle under the guise of a convenient excuse. I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like business as usual at ALPA

Well...maybe.. time will tell.. until then can you particpate in our careers? Also, what other choice to we have but to give in and submit

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And, after 15 years in the industry, I'd agree with them.

Everyone's in it for themselves.

So can you change that paradigm by no taking that mentality. can you begin to come to work and look out for your fellow pilot?

No one takes pride in their career anymore, they've been beat to death by management and their own MEC's in many cases.

That is fair... so what now?

No one wants to raise the bar or carry the torch for anyone else, if it means hardship for them in doing so.

It starts with each one of us.. on our own accord.

That's why unions are ineffective now. In past decades the LEADERSHIP was WILLING to do whatever it took because that's what their constituency wanted. Now,,, not so much.

I'd argue that ths is a romantic ideal of the past. Actually in the past there have always been more worse times than better times... specifically in terms of furlough

I'm wondering if we'll EVER see another airline with another star over their ALPA pin. I personally doubt it.

As long as we keep voting in pro management Presidents, who own't allow strikes and NMB reps who favor managements, and not giving to the PAC I am sure we will. I know I know.. I keep going back to the membership and thier repsonsibility to empower the labor movement, whether it is union leadership or congressional leadership...

Just like we expect our menagements to give us the resources we need to do our jobs properly, we can have to give our leadership the resources to to their job properly. In this case those resources are activisim. Specifically we need to show up to LEC meetings, we need to vote, give to the PAC, send letters to congress... and stop undermining our leadership with angst and a lack of support...

That doesn't mean we just agree to everything. We have to have disagreements and a difference of opinion to work the issues... but once it is time to work the issues with out side organizations we have to speak with an agreed upon message. Otherwise we will simply be tuned out...

If you want to get radical we can, but are we prepared for the backlash? During the Repub controlled congress you can bet your last dollar that the backlash would have been legislation making it even more difficult to do our jobs.. The RLA maybe changed furhter in managements favor.

Your thoughts?

 

[CopilotDoug]

In case you haven't noticed.. the gov't and industry have all the power. This was set up 200+ years ago...

I agree with you, but I submit that they only have the "power" which the masses choose to recognize.

The employees have much more power than they think. Through whichever means possible, what happens if the pilots just stop coming to work one morning until the issues are addressed? Mind you, it'd have to be ALL the pilots, we saw it flounder with the NWA mechanic "strike" which was quite pathetic. The pilots can cripple the industry in a heartbeat if they choose. But how many are willing to do that tomorrow morning?

 

[Lear70]

So can you change that paradigm by no taking that mentality. can you begin to come to work and look out for your fellow pilot?

Wrong guy. Trust me, you're barking up the wrong tree telling ME to come to work and look out for my fellow pilot.

That is fair... so what now?

Whoa, wait a second. What's fair? That their own MEC's they paid dues to screwed them over for failure to follow up on grievances? sign side letters to give the company relief and not get anything back just for "good will"? fail to strike when the majority of the membership indicates that they would rather strike than take a pay cut?

Or just fair that they're pi*sed off after that kind of treatment?

It starts with each one of us.. on our own accord.

Yes, it does. People want leadership, however. Most pilots are self-starters IF, and ONLY IF they KNOW they are going to be rewarded for their efforts. That takes Leadership to get them moving in the right direction.

Prater understands this and is off to a good start with some big promises and a lot of hype. He's starting to motivate a group who has been so resigned to the inevitable downfall of the profession that they had all but given up.

He needs to keep that motivation up, get more people involved, then start winning some battles. The more things he is able to do, the more people will get on board.

That's just the way life is. I know in your utopian society that everyone would be self-motivating without the knowledge that they WILL gain something out of it. It's just that pilots as professionals have simply been beaten into submission, for lack of a better term. The only self-starters left are all involved with their MEC's, on committees already, and face a large uphill battle with the rest of the resigned majority.

I'd argue that ths is a romantic ideal of the past. Actually in the past there have always been more worse times than better times... specifically in terms of furlough.

True. But the job was always WORTH RETURNING TO.

That's not the case anymore. Many, many people are bypassing recall and have moved on to other careers in real estate, marketing, non-aviation management, etc.

THOSE are the better times. Before ALPA sold Scope for a few extra bucks. Before pilots were willing to eat their young. Before pilots kept giving concessions rather than flinging the sabos in the machinery.

Pandora's box has been opened. It will take hard work, impeccable leadership, and a LOT of self-sacrifice IF it's to get better at all.

As long as we keep voting in pro management Presidents, who own't allow strikes and NMB reps who favor managements, and not giving to the PAC I am sure we will. I know I know.. I keep going back to the membership and thier repsonsibility to empower the labor movement, whether it is union leadership or congressional leadership...

First, there haven't been any pro-labor candidates in a LONG time. There certainly aren't any in the upcoming election that I can see either. Some might PREACH pro-labor, but their records don't back that claim.

Second, it's a paradox. Labor needs to empower Leadership. Leadership needs to Lead the Labor group by showing EXACTLY how they're going to "Take it back".

The people are tired of empty promises, and words alone aren't going to motivate them.

If you want to get radical we can, but are we prepared for the backlash? During the Repub controlled congress you can bet your last dollar that the backlash would have been legislation making it even more difficult to do our jobs.. The RLA maybe changed furhter in managements favor.

Your thoughts?

Possibly. Then we push back even harder.

I've said it before: things will get worse before they get better. There is absolutely ZERO incentive for lawmakers to help our profession, or ANY organized labor profession for that matter.

Better wages and better QOL almost always result in a higher cost to any individual company. They usually pass that cost onto the consumer. Then the consumer yells and screams at their Congressmen and Senators that whatever goods that company manufactures just went up in price by 10% or more.

So the people who make the laws in this company either get blasted by the employees of those companies who have been decimated in the last decade, or they get blasted by their non-union constituents who bear the brunt of those price increases.

For the majority of airlines out there (notable exceptions of SWA, FDX, UPS, etc): "War is the ONLY answer. It's come to that."