Pilot Union Wants To Reopen Airline Contracts

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with you, but I submit that they only have the "power" which the masses choose to recognize.

What masses? Air Line Pilots act like independant contractors.

The employees have much more power than they think. Through whichever means possible, what happens if the pilots just stop coming to work one morning until the issues are addressed? Mind you, it'd have to be ALL the pilots, we saw it flounder with the NWA mechanic "strike" which was quite pathetic. The pilots can cripple the industry in a heartbeat if they choose. But how many are willing to do that tomorrow morning?

An SOS in the past has been deemed unworkable. Would you like a reference? In addition, cite the PATCO strike.. that has done more to put a bad taste in the countries mouth about unions... Even the public won't stand for it...

In addition for the past five years pilots have been voting to save thier jobs not role the dice with them with illegal job actions..

If you want more power we've got to change the Federal Code. Now you got me back to the PAC.


How about instead of not calling for an SOS we show that we can just "get it together" May 17th. Will you be there?

 

[Lear70]

What masses? Air Line Pilots act like independant contractors.

Hardly. If we did, we could all SOS tomorrow without any repercussion.

Incidentally, I got a response back from the NPA today saying the BOD is going to meet and discuss it later to see if, as a group, we'll band together for this event.

I'll let you know what they say, and will be there myself, regardless.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wrong guy. Trust me, you're barking up the wrong tree telling ME to come to work and look out for my fellow pilot.

And here in lies a major problem....

Whoa, wait a second. What's fair? That their own MEC's they paid dues to screwed them over for failure to follow up on grievances? sign side letters to give the company relief and not get anything back just for "good will"? fail to strike when the majority of the membership indicates that they would rather strike than take a pay cut?

Fair or not.... it is what it is... you can scream all you want for change... or you can do something..

Or just fair that they're pi*sed off after that kind of treatment?

Sure.... I have no doubt that..that is how they feel... agreed. But what is going to be done about it..

Yes, it does. People want leadership, however. Most pilots are self-starters IF, and ONLY IF they KNOW they are going to be rewarded for their efforts. That takes Leadership to get them moving in the right direction.

Leaders have a vision. What you describe is followership not leadership.

Prater understands this and is off to a good start with some big promises and a lot of hype. He's starting to motivate a group who has been so resigned to the inevitable downfall of the profession that they had all but given up.

Thanks foe sandbaging...

He needs to keep that motivation up, get more people involved, then start winning some battles. The more things he is able to do, the more people will get on board.

Why wait? Your hesitation is hurting.. quit waiting for something for you. We've got nothing to lose if you put some faith..

That's just the way life is. I know in your utopian society that everyone would be self-motivating without the knowledge that they WILL gain something out of it. It's just that pilots as professionals have simply been beaten into submission, for lack of a better term. The only self-starters left are all involved with their MEC's, on committees already, and face a large uphill battle with the rest of the resigned majority.

So support them... yes I am idealistic.. but where do realistic ideas come from?

True. But the job was always WORTH RETURNING TO.

Still can be....

That's not the case anymore. Many, many people are bypassing recall and have moved on to other careers in real estate, marketing, non-aviation management, etc.

That is too bad. The guys that are committed to this profession need to be supported...

THOSE are the better times. Before ALPA sold Scope for a few extra bucks. Before pilots were willing to eat their young. Before pilots kept giving concessions rather than flinging the sabos in the machinery.

That was before regionals too...

Pandora's box has been opened. It will take hard work, impeccable leadership, and a LOT of self-sacrifice IF it's to get better at all.

Are you willing to make self sacrfices?

First, there haven't been any pro-labor candidates in a LONG time. There certainly aren't any in the upcoming election that I can see either. Some might PREACH pro-labor, but their records don't back that claim.

Ok... but they are still going to vote on labor legislation.

Second, it's a paradox. Labor needs to empower Leadership. Leadership needs to Lead the Labor group by showing EXACTLY how they're going to "Take it back".

Leaders embrace the paradox...

May 17th is a start.

Unprecedented membership particaption is another. How innovative...

The people are tired of empty promises, and words alone aren't going to motivate them.

If the last seven years isn't motivation, I don't know what is...

Possibly. Then we push back even harder.

With limited legal power I doubt it... PATCO.

I've said it before: things will get worse before they get better. There is absolutely ZERO incentive for lawmakers to help our profession, or ANY organized labor profession for that matter.

Agreed! The incentive is to get relected. To get relected one needs money. PAC money.

Better wages and better QOL almost always result in a higher cost to any individual company. They usually pass that cost onto the consumer. Then the consumer yells and screams at their Congressmen and Senators that whatever goods that company manufactures just went up in price by 10% or more.

So... are you sympathetic to the consumer over your career? You want to stike a phcuk the consumer... so whats the diff...

So the people who make the laws in this company either get blasted by the employees of those companies who have been decimated in the last decade, or they get blasted by their non-union constituents who bear the brunt of those price increases.

Yup another paradox... Leaders embrace the paradox and do what they can...

For the majority of airlines out there (notable exceptions of SWA, FDX, UPS, etc): "War is the ONLY answer. It's come to that."

Your AR-15 to managements nukes.... good luck!

 

[CopilotDoug]

What masses? Air Line Pilots act like independant contractors.

I agree, collectively we are choosing in-action, which sends the message to the government and management that their BS will be tolerated.

An SOS in the past has been deemed unworkable. Would you like a reference? In addition, cite the PATCO strike.. that has done more to put a bad taste in the countries mouth about unions... Even the public won't stand for it...

I agree...mind you, I am coming from an theorhetical standpoint. The only way it would get the point across would be nearly 100% unification...and no scabs.

In addition for the past five years pilots have been voting to save thier jobs not role the dice with them with illegal job actions..

Which again, puts the leverage back in management's court. Few pilots would voluntarily put themselves out of work for the very stuff they b!tch about.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hardly. If we did, we could all SOS tomorrow without any repercussion.

Provide a detailed analysis....

Incidentally, I got a response back from the NPA today saying the BOD is going to meet and discuss it later to see if, as a group, we'll band together for this event.

Nice..

I'll let you know what they say, and will be there myself, regardless.

I'll buy...:beer:

 

[Lear70]

And here in lies a major problem....

OK, you still don't get it, probably because you don't know me and all the work I did for ALPA when I was at an ALPA carrier and the work I do now.

I vote every time something comes up, and urge others to as well.

THAT'S why you're barking up the wrong tree telling me to get involved and it offends me for someone to say I'm NOT involved, given the work I've done.

Leaders have a vision. What you describe is followership not leadership.

And Leaders bear the responsibility to instill confidence and followership in the pilots they represent.

You don't get a magic pass to suddenly have a group of people start to follow you. This isn't the military.

You have to EARN people's trust and followership. Sorry you don't like it. That's the way life is, so how are you going to accomplish it?

You can TALK all you want about how people fail to get involved, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THE REALITY THAT EXISTS??

You talk all around the problem, but have no solution.

Thanks foe sandbaging...

How? By pointing out the reality of human nature?

Why wait? Your hesitation is hurting.. quit waiting for something for you. We've got nothing to lose if you put some faith..

Again, NOT the way to instill confidence and motivate people to follow you. "You have nothing to lose, so COME ON!"

That was before regionals too...

And who created that problem? Oh yeah, ALPA.

Are you willing to make self sacrfices?

Always have. Again, wrong tree.

Ok... but they are still going to vote on labor legislation.

Yes, and since NONE of them have a good labor track record, your whining about people voting in labor-friendly Presidents is for nothing.

Unprecedented membership particaption is another. How innovative...
If the last seven years isn't motivation, I don't know what is...

Again, poor incentive.

So... are you sympathetic to the consumer over your career? You want to stike a phcuk the consumer... so whats the diff...

Do you even WORK in aviation?

A strike isn't about screwing the CONSUMER. It's about FORCING the company to quit raping the employee.

Where the hell did you get THAT tangent from?

The point was that the consumer gets caught in the crossfire, NOT that they are a deliberate target, and that there are a LOT more aviation consumers out there than there are pilots.

It takes votes to win re-election; I can guarantee you the politicians are a lot less worried about our votes than the majority of the flying public.

Your AR-15 to managements nukes.... good luck!

So you've given up before you've even started the battle?

Nice. THAT'S the kind of Leadership I want... sounds great, where do I sign up?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK, you still don't get it, probably because you don't know me and all the work I did for ALPA when I was at an ALPA carrier and the work I do now.

good!

I vote every time something comes up, and urge others to as well.

We have more in common than not.

THAT'S why you're barking up the wrong tree telling me to get involved and it offends me for someone to say I'm NOT involved, given the work I've done.

My apologies. What are you doing for the NPA?

And Leaders bear the responsibility to instill confidence and followership in the pilots they represent.

You don't get a magic pass to suddenly have a group of people start to follow you. This isn't the military.

Agreed. However, followers can be leaders too. No? Just becuase the leadership is doing what YOU want them to do or be, does that mean you sit on your hands and refuse you help out? Make the place better? Well?

You have to EARN people's trust and followership. Sorry you don't like it. That's the way life is, so how are you going to accomplish it?

Agreed. but I am not going to watch my career go south wating for someone else to instill thier trust.

You can TALK all you want about how people fail to get involved, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THE REALITY THAT EXISTS??

I am going to try and effect positive change...

You talk all around the problem, but have no solution.

Yes, I do have a solution. Its called increased particpation. It is a workable solution. The solution is not easy. The ALPA SRSRC has looked at the LEC meeting problem. How do you get pilots to paritcapte in thier career? How do you get them to help you help them?

It would seem so elementry but yet so difficult....

How? By pointing out the reality of human nature?


Again, NOT the way to instill confidence and motivate people to follow you. "You have nothing to lose, so COME ON!"

C'mon you can do it.. you can rise above it...

And who created that problem? Oh yeah, ALPA.

I didn't know ALPA created regional airlines. Did they apply to the FAA for the operating certificate. Or I could ask you to school me on how ALPA created the regional problem....

Yes, and since NONE of them have a good labor track record, your whining about people voting in labor-friendly Presidents is for nothing.

I don't suppose you'd be open to knowing how things really work in DC?

Again, poor incentive.

You need an incentive to fight for your career?

Do you even WORK in aviation?

I did until I realized something...

A strike isn't about screwing the CONSUMER. It's about FORCING the company to quit raping the employee.

Where the hell did you get THAT tangent from?

The point was that the consumer gets caught in the crossfire, NOT that they are a deliberate target, and that there are a LOT more aviation consumers out there than there are pilots.

I think the consumer bears some repsonsibility... their desire for the cheapest ticket...

It takes votes to win re-election; I can guarantee you the politicians are a lot less worried about our votes than the majority of the flying public.

Wrong....again. It takes money to win elections.

So you've given up before you've even started the battle?

Nice. THAT'S the kind of Leadership I want... sounds great, where do I sign up?

No, Let's avoid fighting a un-winnable war. Kinda smart eh? Like Bruce Lee's flighting style... Fighting without fighting..

 

[Lear70]

My apologies. What are you doing for the NPA?

Just P2P for the moment. Right now they're a little busy with negotiations and a possible T.A. before the Midwest BOD meeting to worry about much of anything else.

Agreed. However, followers can be leaders too. No? Just becuase the leadership is doing what YOU want them to do or be, does that mean you sit on your hands and refuse you help out? Make the place better? Well?

If the union leadership is doing what I want and they are effective, then yeah, I'm going to sit back and enjoy life, my family, and my career until they either start having problems or they need me to help.

When they ask for volunteers, I'll be happy to step up. This isn't, however, the case. Apathy is the problem right now, not contentedness with the current aviation toilet spiral.

Agreed. but I am not going to watch my career go south wating for someone else to instill thier trust.

I am going to try and effect positive change...

That's great, and good for you. Most pilots aren't as forward-thinking and self-motivating, which is why Leadership has to figure out a way to get people involved. We have the same problem here. We had a 75% voter turnout in the last MEC election, yet very low participation in anything else.

That means people are paying attention, but no one is willing to do any real work or challenge the status quo.

Yes, I do have a solution. Its called increased particpation. It is a workable solution. The solution is not easy. The ALPA SRSRC has looked at the LEC meeting problem. How do you get pilots to paritcapte in thier career? How do you get them to help you help them?

It would seem so elementry but yet so difficult....

You mean like Jerry Maguire? "Help me help you. Help ME help YOU."

Your question here is exactly my point. You have to incite your membership to action. That's your job as a Leader.

I didn't know ALPA created regional airlines. Did they apply to the FAA for the operating certificate. Or I could ask you to school me on how ALPA created the regional problem....

Oh c'mon now,,, be realistic. ALPA gave up scope thinking it would be a bunch of turboprops. It happened. Just acknowledge it and move on.

I don't suppose you'd be open to knowing how things really work in DC?

Yeah, actually, except I just had dinner. Seriously though, I understand the basics of money for campaigns, ads, propaganda, etc in order to "rock the vote". I understand how ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC work. I also understand that management's pockets are deeper than ours could ever be, which is why I think it's a lost cause on the Hill, but maybe you have better information than I do.

I think the consumer bears some repsonsibility... their desire for the cheapest ticket...

Do they bear some responsibility? Absolutely. But is my fight with them? Am I deliberately trying to screw them over when I legally withhold my services fighting for my career? Absolutely not. They're simply incidental casualties.

No, Let's avoid fighting a un-winnable war. Kinda smart eh? Like Bruce Lee's flighting style... Fighting without fighting..

I guess that depends on your beliefs - whether you think it's un-winnable...

 

[Swaayze]

Lear70,

Like I said, not into p'ing contests and not sure why you seem so vehement against me. I merely posted the info I had regarding the agreement you spoke against, proving that it was better than what is currently on property. Is it perfect? Of course not.

Thanks for whatever work you've done to improve FTDT regs.

Regards

 

[Lear70]

Don't get me wrong, Swaayze, I'm not against YOU at all. Just the idea that the proposed rest minimums are somehow "desirable". A proposal like that here would be gaining my No vote, but I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to rest. I need my beauty sleep... OK, scratch that. I just need sleep.

Thanks for posting the clarification; I think it's GREAT to see contract proposals from other carriers out there so we can look out for certain things in our own contracts. Makes for great debate, as well...

:beer:

 

[Lear70]

Hey Rez (and others),

Got a response back from the NPA BOD today. Great news, they're in favor of participating jointly with ALPA for this event.

Hi Rich,

5 out of 6 BoD members have already replied to support attending this rally. I believe the 6th is only out of pocket due to flying his regular schedule. So the effort to facilitate a group of pilots to attend is a definite “Go.”

Our P2P Chairman will be briefing the P2Ps in their regular phone conference this Thursday which will hopefully create a buzz on the line. Our Strategic Planning Chairman, has been briefed as well and is happy to help coordinate. I’ve also contacted my cohort with ALPA and she’s thrilled you launched a group effort.

Thanks again, Rich. This will make a great show of general pilot unity. Nice work.

Hopefully this will be received well on the line and we'll have a good turnout.


If you buy first round, I've got the 2nd. :beer:

 

[HelloNewman]

Oh this is hilarious! Trying to open the contract before it even expires? LOL get real they have enough of a hard time getting contracts done within two years of the amendable date. I was laughing my ass off when I read that.