Pilot shortage?????

[Penguin46]

All part of the 2012 hiring boom, by 2014 the college degree will no longer define who gets hired.

I agree it is going the way of vocational tech. Doesn't attract the talent/education it once commanded with the former higher pay.

 

[pilotyip]

I agree it is going the way of vocational tech. Doesn't attract the talent/education it once commanded with the former higher pay.

A college degree has nothing to do with talent in the cockpit. In fact it has little to do with talent in the marketplace. The college degree has become a pay your fee get a "B" at too many institutions to have the college degree by itself is not the ultimate proof of talent or education.

 

[jonjuan]

The college degree has become a pay your fee get a "B" at too many institutions to have the college degree by itself is not the ultimate proof of talent or education.

Not the ultimate proof, but a pretty reliable indicator of someone's overall competency. Heck, why even require a hs degree for that matter. It will always be a college degree at the more reputable of legacies.

 

[pilotyip]

Not the ultimate proof, but a pretty reliable indicator of someone's overall competency. Heck, why even require a hs degree for that matter. It will always be a college degree at the more reputable of legacies.

How about we have to write an ACT of 29 to get an ATP, that would certainly cut down the pilot ranks by testing for talent and intelligence.

In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative." Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as "vocational consolation prizes," best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree.

And still, we talk about millions of "shovel ready" jobs for a society that doesn't encourage people to pick up a shovel. In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a "good job" into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber if you can find one is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we'll all be in need of both.

Guys like my grandfathers with 8th grade educations are no less important to civilized life than they were 70 years ago. Maybe they're in short supply because we don't acknowledge them they way we used to. We leave our check on the kitchen counter, and hope the work gets done. That needs to change.

BTW You sound pretty cock sure of your elevated status and probably look down on those of us as the unwashed who do much match your lofty status. The legacies have hired without college degrees in the pilot shortages of 1999 and will do so again, by redefining competitive minimums. Is SWA a legacy? They were hiring non-college grads 4 years ago. Why because they were great guys who could fly an airplane. Maybe you will have boycott SWA if they offer you a job. I mean after all you would have to hang around people without a degree.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

If we have any pilots without a four year degree, I would guess that it's less than one percent of a pilot group of over 6,000 (soon to be 7,700) pilots. I would probably play the percentages and get the degree, but that's just me YMMV.

 

[pilotyip]

If we have any pilots without a four year degree, I would guess that it's less than one percent of a pilot group of over 6,000 (soon to be 7,700) pilots. I would probably play the percentages and get the degree, but that's just me YMMV.

wasn't that way before 9-11

That is most likely the way a lazy HR person looks at it, the probability of college degree person being successful is higher than that of an high school drop out, therefore I will not look at anything in person's history except that box on page one in lower left hand corner.

There are so more ways to prove yourself beyond that simpleton degree than anyone who wants to pay their fee and get their “B” can obtain. For instance the graduate of a military flight training program, they are most likely superior to the college graduate even thought they do not have the paper, partially because they have been screened, unlike just having money and going to a college. This comes to mind and I am sure there are other examples

 

[Turtle21]

wasn't that way before 9-11

That is most likely the way a lazy HR person looks at it, the probability of college degree person being successful is higher than that of an high school drop out, therefore I will not look at anything in person's history except that box on page one in lower left hand corner.

There are so more ways to prove yourself beyond that simpleton degree than anyone who wants to pay their fee and get their “B” can obtain. For instance the graduate of a military flight training program, they are most likely superior to the college graduate even thought they do not have the paper, partially because they have been screened, unlike just having money and going to a college. This comes to mind and I am sure there are other examples

All pilots from the Air Force version of military flight training programs completed a four year degree before they were entered in the flight program.... Even so I do agree that it is an easy HR discriminator, whether or not it may be warranted.

 

[pilotyip]

All pilots from the Air Force version of military flight training programs completed a four year degree before they were entered in the flight program.... Even so I do agree that it is an easy HR discriminator, whether or not it may be warranted.

Probably the army is the only one taking non-4 yr degree guys, but back in the good ole days, we had a number of pilots flying in the Navy without degrees, called them NavCads. They were good pilots and many went on to jobs at the majors, DAL, Pam Am, Eal, etc.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

wasn't that way before 9-11

That is most likely the way a lazy HR person looks at it, the probability of college degree person being successful is higher than that of an high school drop out, therefore I will not look at anything in person's history except that box on page one in lower left hand corner.

There are so more ways to prove yourself beyond that simpleton degree than anyone who wants to pay their fee and get their “B” can obtain. For instance the graduate of a military flight training program, they are most likely superior to the college graduate even thought they do not have the paper, partially because they have been screened, unlike just having money and going to a college. This comes to mind and I am sure there are other examples

Are you ever going to quit whining about the fact that degrees are the norm now? Get over it. There's no guarantee that someone with a degree is educated, but the chances that someone without a degree are educated are lower. Period. It is a hoop one must jump through in our society.

Hire who you want, but you should stop leading young people astray by recommending they not get a degree.

 

[Indy319FA]

Last time I checked a good old boy from West Virginia named Yeager had no college degree, and as I remember he was a pretty fair pilot.....

 

[Turtle21]

Last time I checked a good old boy from West Virginia named Yeager had no college degree, and as I remember he was a pretty fair pilot.....

Which airline does be fly for?

 

[waveflyer]

Cool, it's settled.

If you're chuck Yeager, don't get a 4-Yr degree

Everyone else, get it done and do your work.

All settled now.

 

[pilotyip]

There's no guarantee that someone with a degree is educated

Thank you you get the picture. We all agree it has nothing to do with flying an airplane also. Also there is too much emphasis on college, the skilled trades go wanting, leaving jobs that often pay better than a liberal arts degree or an aviation management degree.

You can succeed in your aviation career without racking up a $100K in debt, unless of course you have rich parents who don't mind paying for it.

I have said never don’t get a degree, I have admitted that it will probably open doors, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. It is only a box to be checked on an application. Going to a 4 yr. college out of high school is not the only way to get your degree. This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We hired a 20 year old pilot a few years ago, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt. at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is started as a DA-20 F/O at $33K, he was a DA-20 Capt. the day he turned 23, he had his degree completed by the time he was 26 years old. At that time he should had 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He had his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management that our company helped pay for through the tuition assistance program, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job. Which he was offered by a major, but turned it down for a Forture 5 Corporate job.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Thank you you get the picture. We all agree it has nothing to do with flying an airplane also.

Just like Fox news...you selectively quoted me. I said the degree is no guarantee someone is educated, but it is much more likely that someone with a degree is educated than someone without one.

No one thinks college makes you a better pilot. College makes you a better person to hire, which isn't about your pilot skills.



To the future pilots:

Yes, you can make more money as a welder. Go be a welder if you want money. If you want to be a pilot, get a college degree. Period. Get it after your certificates if you want, but you'll have MORE doors open with it. Even the idiot I copied above admits that.

 

[jonjuan]

Are you ever going to quit whining about the fact that degrees are the norm now? Get over it. There's no guarantee that someone with a degree is educated, but the chances that someone without a degree are educated are lower. Period. It is a hoop one must jump through in our society.

Hire who you want, but you should stop leading young people astray by recommending they not get a degree.

Exactamundo. I can't wait for some to throw out the fact that Bill Gates and Michael Dell were college dropouts. College is the new HS degree. One or two may slip through the legacy airline hiring cracks, but that's all.
Heck, when you think about it, you don't need a college degree to be an astronaut or President of the US.
Sounds like someone's kids couldn't get into college or someone was too cheap to pay. Wait, that gives me an idea. Sorry boys, your college fund is now Dad's coke and hooker bender in Vegas.

 

[bizicmo]

Exactamundo. I can't wait for some to throw out the fact that Bill Gates and Michael Dell were college dropouts. College is the new HS degree. One or two may slip through the legacy airline hiring cracks, but that's all.
Heck, when you think about it, you don't need a college degree to be an astronaut or President of the US.
Sounds like someone's kids couldn't get into college or someone was too cheap to pay. Wait, that gives me an idea. Sorry boys, your college fund is now Dad's coke and hooker bender in Vegas.

Gates and Dell, please, how about LeBron.

 

[pilotyip]

Even the idiot I copied above admits that.

Name calling? it just doesn't seem to be you, but then again this is FI! I have never said not to get a degree, just that a four year school right out of high school is not the only way to do it.

 

[waveflyer]

The gig is up yip- you're trying to sell the handful of college-averse pilots who will take that night school/online school route with you up in YIP- you get a motivated, cheap pilot who will be around quite a bit longer than most.... We get it- they can go that route if they wish- but we see the agenda you got.
Btw, college can also be an untradable, fantastic life experience if you make it one. Or it can be a box to check on an app. Your choice- I didn't go a traditional route right out of hs- but even with my CC stint I wouldn't trade any of my college experience for anything- much of which is a social education- how to work with people- how to talk to people- etc- etc-
It's made me a much better airline pilot-
IMO- my flying ability and experience got me interviews- who I am as a person, much of which was developed in college, got me jobs.

NEVER SKIMP ON YOUR TRAINING OR YOUR EDUCATION- THOSE HOLES WILL FOLLOW YOU AND HAMPER YOU THE REST OF YOUR LIFE-

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Name calling? it just doesn't seem to be you, but then again this is FI! I have never said not to get a degree, just that a four year school right out of high school is not the only way to do it.

Sometimes you gotta call it like it is. I don't take well to being quoted in such a way to misrepresent what I'm saying.

 

[Jackie Moon]

Last time I checked a good old boy from West Virginia named Yeager had no college degree, and as I remember he was a pretty fair pilot.....

Watched The Right Stuff a few months ago. Wasn't Yeager passed up for the space program because he didn't have a degree? Guess it can cost anyone no matter who you are.

 

[HA25]

The gig is up yip- you're trying to sell the handful of college-averse pilots who will take that night school/online school route with you up in YIP- you get a motivated, cheap pilot who will be around quite a bit longer than most.... We get it- they can go that route if they wish- but we see the agenda you got.
Btw, college can also be an untradable, fantastic life experience if you make it one. Or it can be a box to check on an app. Your choice- I didn't go a traditional route right out of hs- but even with my CC stint I wouldn't trade any of my college experience for anything- much of which is a social education- how to work with people- how to talk to people- etc- etc-
It's made me a much better airline pilot-
IMO- my flying ability and experience got me interviews- who I am as a person, much of which was developed in college, got me jobs.

NEVER SKIMP ON YOUR TRAINING OR YOUR EDUCATION- THOSE HOLES WILL FOLLOW YOU AND HAMPER YOU THE REST OF YOUR LIFE-

and you've just summed up Yips total world view when it comes to our profession... better than his own signature even does.

 

[DA10]

Your choice- I didn't go a traditional route right out of hs- but even with my CC stint I wouldn't trade any of my college experience for anything- much of which is a social education- how to work with people- how to talk to people- etc- etc-
It's made me a much better airline pilot-
IMO- my flying ability and experience got me interviews- who I am as a person, much of which was developed in college, got me jobs.

Holy run-on sentences, Batman! Ever go to grammar class while working on this social education?

 

[pilotyip]

IMO- my flying ability and experience got me interviews- who I am as a person, much of which was developed in college, got me jobs.

NEVER SKIMP ON YOUR TRAINING OR YOUR EDUCATION- THOSE HOLES WILL FOLLOW YOU AND HAMPER YOU THE REST OF YOUR LIFE-

That is right you are harder working, more motivated and more experienced, that is why you succeded, luck and timing had nothing to do with your career.

BTW I totally agree with YOUR QUOTE IN CAPS, but education comes from many places besides college. But to each his own.

 

[dillfer]

The college degree box is just there to weed out applicants. Gotta agree with YIP, it really has nothing to do with flying. Just a way to shove apps into another pile.

I gathered most of my social skills from college too. But it was as a bartender. Didn't get a whole lot of social skills from the classroom. I guess you could say that you can learn social skills from the whole college experience, but you could say that about a person who gets his first job at Red Lobster after he moves out of his parents house.

There's a much better substitute for the college experience, its called LIFE. Guys that have a 4 year degree and think that that's the only way to do things have a very small vision of the world. Their's more than one way to skin a cat, and only a few wrong ways. Kind of like their's a lot of ways to fly an airplane and only a few wrong ways.

Yah, and I have a four year degree. A complete waste of time and money. Don't get me wrong, I had a good time. But probably would've been better off buying an airplane building a bunch of time and then going to Alaska or flying tours somewhere.

 

[fam62c]

Man, this just keeps going on and on. Control what you can and don't worry about the rest of it. If a carrier requires a 4-year degree then that's that; if you want to fly there you need a degree. If the company doesn't require a degree then you don't need one, it is what it is. You can debate until you're blue in the face and it won't change a thing.

Personally I don't care if the person sitting next to me has a degree or not as long as they are a good pilot and are enjoyable to work with but I don't design hiring criteria and I'm guessing that nobody else here does either. It's a competitive world out there and, all other things being equal, the person with more education will have an advantage in the hiring process; right or wrong that's just the way that it is. This thread has gone on way too long.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Go to college when you are mature enough to make a $100K decision. Then if somebody fronts you the $100K, so much the better. If they don't, you figure out how to make that investment in yourself because you are absolutely sure that it will pay you back many times over.

Making college into 13-16th grade is foolish. Start early with confident kids who prove they are able to make good decisions by making good decisions and lots of them.

 

[Indy319FA]

Watched The Right Stuff a few months ago. Wasn't Yeager passed up for the space program because he didn't have a degree? Guess it can cost anyone no matter who you are.

He was passed up because he didn't have an engineering degree. The first group of astronauts were essentially project managers as well as astronauts so the job involved having engineering skills as well as pilot skills.

My point about Yeager was that even the military (including the Air Force), given the circumstances, will hire and make officers of people without college degrees. College degrees outside of specialized fields (like medecine or engineering) are nothing more than a way to cull the herd. Hell you don't even have to have a college degree to get into Med school or Law school (although most schools will take those with degrees over non degreed). In times of great demand it really isn't necessary. When there are large numbers of applicants for very few jobs then a degree becomes important. A good high school education proves you can read, write, and understand enough math to do most any job. A college degree proves you have the discipline to sit through a course of study and are trainable. One can also prove their trainability through work experiences outside of college as well.

I'm not saying a degree is a waste of time. I have two degrees and a Master's degree because I enjoy studying and learning new things in a structured environment. Not everyone likes this or has the time to do it, but it doesn't mean they aren't smart and capable people. Some of the smartest people I have ever met have no college degree, and some of the dumbest people I have ever met are college professors with PHds. There is an old saying, those that can, do.....those that can't teach college. If not for a college campus some of these guys would starve to death.

 

[pilotyip]

YIP- you get a motivated, cheap pilot who will be around quite a bit longer than most.... We get it- they can go that route if they wish- but we see the agenda you got.

yea like all those guys who came and went to NWA, DAL, SWA, NJ, FedEx, UPS, etc. It is a real joy in my life that I helped them get that experience that allowed the next move. Most are still my friend and we stay in touch. I love that part of this job

Btw, college can also be an untradable, fantastic life experience if you make it one.

Having done both the military and college, my experience in the military was an untradable, fantastic life experience if you make it one. It is all in perspective. All that being said my college buddies and I still get together and a have good times.

 

[tomgoodman]

Watched The Right Stuff a few months ago. Wasn't Yeager passed up for the space program because he didn't have a degree?

Yeager says he wasn't interested in the job anyway. He was already a F-100 Squadron Commander in 1959, made O-6 in 1960, and then took command of the Test Pilot School. The Right Stuff movie took some liberties with the time line of events.

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/yea0int-6

 

[Flyby1206]

Ohhh my god, are we seriously comparing Chuck Yeager with non-degree pilot applicants at a 121 airline? C'mon now.

I give up. Yes, every non-degree pilot applicant is a special snowflake just like Yeager, Gates, Dell, Lebron, etc.