Pilot Shortage

[captain dad]

Today's USAToday:

Raise pilot standard

Matthew Asdel - Oceanside, Calif.
A worldwide pilot shortage has caused the regional airlines to lower hiring standards to a dangerous level ("Airlines turn to retirees to help ease pilot shortage," Today in the Sky, USATODAY.com, Feb. 8).

Rather than lowering experience levels, airlines should follow the basic laws of supply and demand and raise wages.
The Federal Aviation Administration should mandate more experience. A 300-hour pilot may be legal on paper, but I believe he or she lacks the judgment and real-life experience to operate an airliner full of people.
Allowing a pilot to fly who doesn't have many years of experience is analogous to allowing a newly licensed 16-year-old to drive a rig full of explosives.

And the choir sings "AMEN!"

I reality the general public doesn't know, doesn't care or a combination of the two. All they care about is ticket prices and the lack of food to stuff in their faces.

These are the same people that buy EVIAN water and no it's not french.

EVIAN, is Naive spelled backwards.

I agree with you for the most part but, the general public are sheep and sheep don't care.

 

[skyward80]

Publisher:

What you say about the "entry price" into aviation is true to a certain degree. I would like to add that the "entry price" is lasting a LOT longer than it used to. If first year pays sucks at ABC Air, the second year pay should make up for that. However, there are many parts of the aviation industry in which this is not so.

I wonder how long a pilot can be expected to pay this entry price before he jumps ship or ships out to some other part of the world.

Skyward80

 

[pilotyip]

30 hr pilots

Today's USAToday:

Raise pilot standard

Matthew Asdel - Oceanside, Calif.
A worldwide pilot shortage has caused the regional airlines to lower hiring standards to a dangerous level ("Airlines turn to retirees to help ease pilot shortage," Today in the Sky, USATODAY.com, Feb. 8).

Rather than lowering experience levels, airlines should follow the basic laws of supply and demand and raise wages.
The Federal Aviation Administration should mandate more experience. A 300-hour pilot may be legal on paper, but I believe he or she lacks the judgment and real-life experience to operate an airliner full of people.
Allowing a pilot to fly who doesn't have many years of experience is analogous to allowing a newly licensed 16-year-old to drive a rig full of explosives.

If properly screened and trained, 300 hr pilots are very capable. Look at the militray 300 hr pilots are flying C-17's around the world, landing F-18's on carriers, and doing low night missons on goggles in an H-53.

 

[gunfyter]

If properly screened and trained, 300 hr pilots are very capable. Look at the militray 300 hr pilots are flying C-17's around the world, landing F-18's on carriers, and doing low night missons on goggles in an H-53.

Yeah, you wanna tell us how much is spent on recruiting and training that 300 hr pilot who lands on a ship in the F-18? I don't think a regional or 135 freight operator will spend that.

 

[John Glenn]

Heres a laugh for you.

I can only hire you if you have 1200 TT. True its single pilot so I can see why. BUT, we haul boxes in 210s and Baron. No pax, no jet A. OUCH. Oh yeah, MKC runs pay between 30-51K for flying a 210 M-F. Still having a helluva time finding pilots. As a pilot I love the oppurtunities, as a recruiter its killing me, as a pax...

 

[pilotyip]

No shipboard landings

Yeah, you wanna tell us how much is spent on recruiting and training that 300 hr pilot who lands on a ship in the F-18? I don't think a regional or 135 freight operator will spend that.

We can do it a lot cheaper; 5,000' RW in a DA-2O is the goal. It is all 121 training to a written standard, all instructors and check airman train to the same standard from the first day of ground school to the PC in the airplanes. Kinda like the military. These 500-hour guys do a good job moving into the right seat of the DA-20. Then four years later they can apply at NJ.

 

[Publishers]

I actually think the problems we are talking about are more serious in the A&P field. The time to decent pay is so much quicker in the auto business and the demand for more people so acute, it is very hard to get young people to spend the time building a maintenance career. When 9/11 happened, many of the auto companies came to me to help in the recruiting effort for their dealerships.
In a way, what we are paying for now is the 9/11 hangover as there was no one starting a flying career for about 2 years. In addition, we looked at some stats that showed people just learning to fly were diminishing but those that did were more likely to be doing it for a career. I got involved in the business of aviation through the pleasure flying side having learned to fly with no intention of it being a career.

 

[NJA Capt]

When most jobs start at poverty level wages and bad work rule, then that equals a shortage in the job market.

Supply and demand.

If the supply is short, employers raise pay to attract remaining workers or entice them from competitors. Airlines on the other hand just keep looking lower. What next, hall passes for high school seniors?

Pathetic.
4 year degree? Nevermind
2000 hours? Nevermind
ATP or FE written passed? Nevermind

Now it is: Can you spell airplane? You're hired!

PS: yip
Those 300 hr F18 pilots spend about 2 years in school and training before they see a boat. They don't take a 50 hour F18 course and head to Iraq. Mil pilots can get dropped at any time if they don't keep up to snuff. The "academy kids" just keep pumping in cash until they pass. Two TOTALLY different circumstances.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

I actually think the problems we are talking about are more serious in the A&P field. The time to decent pay is so much quicker in the auto business and the demand for more people so acute, it is very hard to get young people to spend the time building a maintenance career. When 9/11 happened, many of the auto companies came to me to help in the recruiting effort for their dealerships.
In a way, what we are paying for now is the 9/11 hangover as there was no one starting a flying career for about 2 years. In addition, we looked at some stats that showed people just learning to fly were diminishing but those that did were more likely to be doing it for a career. I got involved in the business of aviation through the pleasure flying side having learned to fly with no intention of it being a career.

Things are much worse on the A&P side. There is a severe shortage of qualified techs out there and experience is drying up. At some of the places I worked at as a tech I saw a lot of new mechanics that didn't have any experience or even a license! Who wants to work on every holiday, nights, weekends, and sign their lives away in many aircraft logbooks for $15 per hour.

 

[StarHustler]

In a way, what we are paying for now is the 9/11 hangover as there was no one starting a flying career for about 2 years. .

Yahtzee! We have a winner! This is so true, I was a flight instructor when 9/11 hit at a big central Florida Flight school that went under 1.5 years afterward. Prior to 9/11 we had students coming out of our ears, afterward we had to drag them in off the street with an unmarked van! Then, those students that 'stuck it out' with aviation as a career told their friends and family that this was NOT the career it used to be and basically, to stay away. I imagine that 'student starts' are up since then, but we are looking at least for a few more years of pilot drought.

 

[fam62c]

Here's the simple answer.

There is not and there will never be a pilot shortage for good jobs in the USA. For every good job that offers good pay and good QOL there are 100 or more bad jobs. That means that there are 100 or more applicants for every good job. UPS, FedEX, SWA, NetJets and other high quality airline and corporate operators will always have a huge surplus of applicants. Don't believe me? Try being out of work with qualifications far in excess of what most places are hiring and see how many employers you hear back from when you start applying for jobs. If you are lucky you will get an automated E-mail message back after you apply. At most places you won't even get that much.

The USA could stop training new pilots entirely for 5 years or more and the good employers would never even notice the difference. Maybe if you are MESA airlines and you are looking for FO's to work for 20K/year you may think that there's a shortage. It's a great time for young pilots with no experience to get started in entry level positions with low pay and undesirable QOL but the good employers are still flooded with applicants. The number of entry level jobs at the bottom of the industry has increased dramatically but the number of good jobs at the top never increases. I just looked at the XOJet posts and could not believe the number of applicants they have for a small number of jobs. Keep in mind that these are jobs where you are away from home a minimum of 8 days in a row.

There's no shortage of pilots, there's only a shortage of good flying jobs.

 

[Flybet3]

There is not and there will never be a pilot shortage for good jobs in the USA. For every good job that offers good pay and good QOL there are 100 or more bad jobs. That means that there are 100 or more applicants for every good job. UPS, FedEX, SWA, NetJets and other high quality airline and corporate operators will always have a huge surplus of applicants. Don't believe me? Try being out of work with qualifications far in excess of what most places are hiring and see how many employers you hear back from when you start applying for jobs. If you are lucky you will get an automated E-mail message back after you apply. At most places you won't even get that much.

The USA could stop training new pilots entirely for 5 years or more and the good employers would never even notice the difference. Maybe if you are MESA airlines and you are looking for FO's to work for 20K/year you may think that there's a shortage. It's a great time for young pilots with no experience to get started in entry level positions with low pay and undesirable QOL but the good employers are still flooded with applicants. The number of entry level jobs at the bottom of the industry has increased dramatically but the number of good jobs at the top never increases. I just looked at the XOJet posts and could not believe the number of applicants they have for a small number of jobs. Keep in mind that these are jobs where you are away from home a minimum of 8 days in a row.

There's no shortage of pilots, there's only a shortage of good flying jobs.

Good point. Very good post.

 

[captain dad]

Maybe if you are MESA airlines and you are looking for FO's to work for 20K/year you may think that there's a shortage.

That is where you will see the shortage; at the bottom of the industry. There aren't enough qualified pilots as it is now. When regionals go soliciting at flight schools, FBOs and even airline terminals (one was even passing out flyers) there is a pilot shortage.

Ask the pilots and FAs on your next regional ride.

 

[skyward80]

If the demand is truly that high, they should pay more and provide a better QOL. Thanks to mergers, slow economy, and age 65, pilots are going to be spending a lot more time on the bottom of this industry. If you don't sweeten that deal at least a little bit, you're not going to get any pilots.

Any "shortage" is self-induced. Take me for example, I have no civilian job. If my orders are cut off tomorrow, I'm basically unemployed. With my qualifications, I could easily work at a regional. However, you will never see my name on one of their applications. And, no, it's NOT because I think I'm too good or whatever. It's because I can't afford to work their. I've got loans to pay, a retirement account to fund, etc. I can't afford to live off of chicken feed and food stamps.

Here's a whole other can of worms for everybody... If ALPA were worth a s***, they would be working hard to raise standards at regionals. However, ALPA is a heavy captain union. If you're not a heavy-flying captain, you don't matter. Ask any regional/national pilot. My roommate from college doesn't have a whole lot of great things to say about them nor do the dozen or so other regional/national pilots I know in that segment of the industry. Plus, about 10 minutes of research will show you that ALPA disregards its members.

Skyward80

 

[pilotyip]

Direct entry 100K job?

However, you will never see my name on one of their applications. And, no, it's NOT because I think I'm too good or whatever. It's because I can't afford to work their. I've got loans to pay, a retirement account to fund, etc. I can't afford to live off of chicken feed and food stamps.

Skyward80

100K is a very achievable wage in the aviation industry after 10 years, what is wrong with than? It is a good income; I have never seen it and am doing just fine. Nowhere did I say you should not try t0 make more. BTW What is middle class income? is it 46K, 50 percentile, is it 75K, 70 percentile, is in 90K, 80 percentile, is it 110K 90 percentile. Most pilots make a good living compared to the rest of the individuals in this country, and most are doing something they like. You have to pay your dues someplace to start out in this business

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

100K is a very achievable wage in the aviation industry after 10 years, what is wrong with than? It is a good income; I have never seen it and am doing just fine. Nowhere did I say you should not try t0 make more. BTW What is middle class income? is it 46K, 50 percentile, is it 75K, 70 percentile, is in 90K, 80 percentile, is it 110K 90 percentile. Most pilots make a good living compared to the rest of the individuals in this country, and most are doing something they like. You have to pay your dues someplace to start out in this business

Hold on there high speed. Most of the rest of the individuals in this country also do not regulary have other peoples lives depeneding on how well they do thier job. They mess up, no big deal. We mess up, people can get hurt. There is a big difference, don't you think?

And before you bring up doctors, let's just see how much they make for this same responsibility...and the last I checked, I haven't seen or heard about any "surgery simulators" where "surgery simulator Doctor Insructors" give the students simulated equipement failures while they are doing simulated open heart sugery. Oh yea, an your nurse just became incapacitated.

 

[Flyby1206]

100K is a very achievable wage in the aviation industry after 10 years, what is wrong with than? It is a good income; I have never seen it and am doing just fine. Nowhere did I say you should not try t0 make more. BTW What is middle class income? is it 46K, 50 percentile, is it 75K, 70 percentile, is in 90K, 80 percentile, is it 110K 90 percentile. Most pilots make a good living compared to the rest of the individuals in this country, and most are doing something they like. You have to pay your dues someplace to start out in this business

How much does the average pilot spend on college education, flight training, expenses along the way before they get hired at a regional carrier? I would say 100k would be average total cost. How much did the guy working the middle-class job at a factory spend in training? Probably no college, no specialized training, they didnt spend years of apprenticeship making low wages in hopes of getting hired at a big factory someday. As long as this industry has the "I paid my dues, you have to do the same. We will eat our young to get what the top 5% of the company wants" we wont make progress. I ask you this: When are my dues considered "paid." How many years of night freight in a baron, flight instructing, right seat in an RJ, left seat in an RJ, Reserve on the DC-9 out of DTW does it take before I am on the same level as someone who has paid their dues? If I get furloughed and have to go back to flying an RJ or baron, of CFI does that mean my dues have been taken back? The industry is as strong as its weakest payscale.

 

[blzr]

And before you bring up doctors, let's just see how much they make for this same responsibility...and the last I checked, I haven't seen or heard about any "surgery simulators" where "surgery simulator Doctor Insructors" give the students simulated equipement failures while they are doing simulated open heart sugery. Oh yea, an your nurse just became incapacitated.
__________________

If 'ole Doc Sawbones screws the pooch, only one person dies, if the pilot does, the whole E/R dies.

 

[blzr]

100K is a very achievable wage in the aviation industry after 10 years, what is wrong with than? It is a good income; I have never seen it and am doing just fine. Nowhere did I say you should not try t0 make more. BTW What is middle class income? is it 46K, 50 percentile, is it 75K, 70 percentile, is in 90K, 80 percentile, is it 110K 90 percentile. Most pilots make a good living compared to the rest of the individuals in this country, and most are doing something they like. You have to pay your dues someplace to start out in this business

There is a big difference between "being happy with what you make", and "being content"with what you make.

We have a much larger responsibility to the customer than ANYONE else in the company, all the while being treated like second class citizens by management.

 

[G100driver]

Look, guys flying for the commuters probably get what the deserve .... it is not like they need a college education fly a shinny little jet.