Pilot Shortage

[Flybet3]

Every new FO will have a temporary certificate because they receive their "SIC type rating" when they complete training. A temporary certificate tells you nothing about an FO's experience.

LOL. Good point, forgot about that one.

 

[Thedude]

. We don’t loose pilot except to places like NJ, SWA, FedEx, DAL, etc,

B.S. I have run into more than one guy in MIA that has left USA Jet for one reason or another

one guy flies 80 hours and is gone from home 6 days,

Care to explain that since you can only fly 24 hrs in a 72 hr period.

 

[captain dad]

Things have changed, to the world now we are nothing more than Glorified bus drivers!

Speak for yourself sunshine.

"I'm a limo driver!" :laugh:

 

[jmreii]

Don't believe the hype. There is no pilot shortage. Companies in Asia, the Middle East, and India are hurting for pilots. There is NO pilot shortage in the west. Any perceived "shortage" is due to western pilots jumping ship to head overseas. Funny. Nobody wants to work for peanuts. Maybe more companies should follow suit with NJA, SWA, FDX, and UPS. Pay your people, provide a half-decent QOL, and they stick around.

Skyward80

Why should more companies in the U.S. pay better when the name of the game is being screwed by management and making you like it.

That is why so many americans are working overseas.

 

[jmreii]

Where are you going to go from your peanuts $100K/yr job after 10 years and make that kind of money. My brother MBA, 30 yrs in GM management barly makes that number. Airline/Corp/Fractional pilot pay is good compared to the rest of the US wages earners.

I have a friend just became a pharmacist two years ago in memphis, tenn., she made over 100,000 a year her first two years in the business without over time. Single mother, with back to school in her forties and got the job done.

Moral of the story is, look at other avenues besides aviation or forever hold your piece. piece out

 

[pilotyip]

Out and back

B.S. I have run into more than one guy in MIA that has left USA Jet for one reason or another




Care to explain that since you can only fly 24 hrs in a 72 hr period.

Simple, out and backs, fly to ABC and back to YIP, 6 hrs sleep in your own bed. Do that about 10 times and you got 60 hrs. As far as running into them most liklely you do, over 300 have passed through here in the last 10 years.

 

[Flybet3]

Speak for yourself sunshine.

"I'm a limo driver!" :laugh:

Yeah same here, except people spit on me a bit more. And instead of saying "excuse me driver?" they keep shouting "Say bitchh!!!!!! slow down!" :laugh:

 

[skyward80]

Why should more companies in the U.S. pay better when the name of the game is being screwed by management and making you like it.

That is why so many americans are working overseas.

I couldn't agree more. Only a few US aviation companies are smart enough to figure out the "magic" formula of keeping employees around. Actually, it's not magic... it's COMMON SENSE. There I go again throwing around words like common sense in a discussion about aviation.

Skyward80

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Yeah same here, except people spit on me a bit more. And instead of saying "excuse me driver?" they keep shouting "Say bitchh!!!!!! slow down!" :laugh:

You also forgot the part about after they say "excuse me driver" .... "here's your tip for taking me safely for 10 city blocks". Where's my tip? Didn't I just safely take you over 2000 miles? Heck even the folks a starbucks get a tip for making you a cup of coffee. Where's the justice?

 

[Flybet3]

You also forgot the part about after they say "excuse me driver" .... "here's your tip for taking me safely for 10 city blocks". Where's my tip? Didn't I just safely take you over 2000 miles? Heck even the folks a starbucks get a tip for making you a cup of coffee. Where's the justice?

You also forgot the part about after they say "excuse me driver" .... "here's your tip for taking me safely for 10 city blocks". Where's my tip? Didn't I just safely take you over 2000 miles? Heck even the folks a starbucks get a tip for making you a cup of coffee. Where's the justice?

I know my brother, I know :erm:
That's the thing I miss about charter flying (nice tips) unfortunatly in aviation you win something on one side but lose it on the other, allow me to explain.

Airline pilots-
The good
1- Days Off
2- Don't have to live in Base
3- The bigger the airplane the bigger the suitcase "ISSUE" doesn't really exsist.
4- In the long run you can make alot more money once you have some seniority and you make it to the left seat.
The bad
1- Not alot of money to be made to start. (regional and some major level)
2- Job security kinda sux now a days
3- Always feeling like you have a gun pointed to your head.
4- No longer feel respected
5- Mergers, pay cuts etc.

Charter Pilots-
The Good
1- More money to start
2- Insurance benefits are usually good
3- Get tips ($200-$1000 in one day)
4- Flying is more fun and diverse

The Bad
1- QOL sux on 99% of charter jobs
2- If you really want to make some money, then you have to fly bigger equipment (Hawkers, Gulfstream) which means your QOL just went from crappy to horribly sh***y.
3- The bigger the airplane the bigger the suitcase "ISSUE" comes into effect.
4- You really get to feel used and abused.
5- imagine being no ready reserve 24/7.

Corporate Pilots-
The Good-
1- Money tends to be great
2- Equipment is usually great
3- Job security can be pretty good for Major corporations (McD's, Banks etc)
4- Benefits are usually very good
5- Get treated usually (not always) in a more professional manner.

The bad-
1- Wanna make alot more money? Well, move to bigger equipment (bigger the airplane, the bigger the suitcase issue comes into play)
2- QOL can sometimes not be as good (being on call)
3- Part 91 rules can bite ya on the a$$ (rest requirements are pretty much non exsistant.)
4- Job security on the corporate side of things (small corporations/private owners) can be as bad or worst than airlines.

121 Supplemental/Long haul
The good-
1- Get to fly "heavy" equiment
2- Get to see the world
3- Great experience
4- Money can be "OK"

The bad-
1- Job security in my opinion sux
2- Most companies treat you like sh***
3- Be prepared to be GOOOOONE.
4- Schedules suck
5- Once again, You better be packing for a month.

I think you get my point...

 

[Publishers]

The root of the problem is not money nor the QOL. It is the entry price. Let's start with the QOL. This industry requires/demands that you are away a good deal, cannot plan as well, and is hard on families etc...It is not for everyone. As for the money, it too is there. It is the time and money to get there that causes the shortages, not only here but worldwide. Look at the Silver States helicopter school, Tab Express, and others and the money borrowed to go to school. Look how hard it is to get not time but the right time for the job you want. The path is not easy nor quick in a society that wants it quick and easy.

 

[Flybet3]

The root of the problem is not money nor the QOL. It is the entry price. Let's start with the QOL. This industry requires/demands that you are away a good deal, cannot plan as well, and is hard on families etc...It is not for everyone. As for the money, it too is there. It is the time and money to get there that causes the shortages, not only here but worldwide. Look at the Silver States helicopter school, Tab Express, and others and the money borrowed to go to school. Look how hard it is to get not time but the right time for the job you want. The path is not easy nor quick in a society that wants it quick and easy.

No no no no.... the root of the problem are humans LOL. But seriously, human nature is what f**** everything up.

 

[Flybet3]

The root of the problem is not money nor the QOL. It is the entry price. Let's start with the QOL. This industry requires/demands that you are away a good deal, cannot plan as well, and is hard on families etc...It is not for everyone. As for the money, it too is there. It is the time and money to get there that causes the shortages, not only here but worldwide. Look at the Silver States helicopter school, Tab Express, and others and the money borrowed to go to school. Look how hard it is to get not time but the right time for the job you want. The path is not easy nor quick in a society that wants it quick and easy.

Hey yeah, TAB Express. Was that the company in florida that operated Beech 1900's? What happened with those guys?

 

[gunfyter]

... and the money borrowed to go to school. Look how hard it is to get not time but the right time for the job you want. The path is not easy nor quick in a society that wants it quick and easy.

You will find similar language in Wealth of Nations section wages of labor....

Smith says any father could invest the monies and send his son to Apprentice with a Cobbler and be reasonable sure his son would succeed in that career. But to invest in the education and experience it takes to practice medicine or law .... Many will not succeed.

The successful applicant must be compensated not only for the time and capital he has expended... but for that of all the others who tried and failed!

IOW, 1000 people begin flight training hoping to make it in this industry... 250 make it.... The ROI of all the funds expended on flight training by the 1000 people must be recouped by the 250 of us who remain.

This is why Pilot pay should be several times the pay of most other workers.

I have invested a lot of money on Pitching and Batting lessons for 2 boys. But only those parents whose sons make the major leagues will get a good return on such an investment. If i get one scholarship out of it i will think i am ahead.

 

[G100driver]

You will find similar language in Wealth of Nations section wages of labor....

Smith says any father could invest the monies and send his son to Apprentice with a Cobbler and be reasonable sure his son would succeed in that career. But to invest in the education and experience it takes to practice medicine or law .... Many will not succeed.

The successful applicant must be compensated not only for the time and capital he has expended... but for that of all the others who tried and failed!

IOW, 1000 people begin flight training hoping to make it in this industry... 250 make it.... The ROI of all the funds expended on flight training by the 1000 people must be recouped by the 250 of us who remain.

This is why Pilot pay should be several times the pay of most other workers.

I have invested a lot of money on Pitching and Batting lessons for 2 boys. But only those parents whose sons make the major leagues will get a good return on such an investment. If i get one scholarship out of it i will think i am ahead.

Gunfyter, quit talking sense. This is a pilot board and has no room sense.

Next thing you know I will need a college education to figure out who the flock Adam Smith is.

 

[motch]

There is No Pilot Shortage..

Just a shortage of pilots willing to work for low pay/poor work rules.

 

[blueridge71]

When most jobs start at poverty level wages and bad work rule, then that equals a shortage in the job market.

 

[X-Wind]

You hit the nail on the head!

I don't think UPS or FEDEX are having any problem finding pilots!

 

[pilotyip]

no problem finding pilots

When most jobs start at poverty level wages and bad work rule, then that equals a shortage in the job market.

Filling every class, starting out around 35K/ yr better than 2/3 of the majors. Getting a lot of regional pilots coming for the money and days off at home.

 

[av8orboy]

Today's USAToday:

Raise pilot standard

Matthew Asdel - Oceanside, Calif.
A worldwide pilot shortage has caused the regional airlines to lower hiring standards to a dangerous level ("Airlines turn to retirees to help ease pilot shortage," Today in the Sky, USATODAY.com, Feb. 8).

Rather than lowering experience levels, airlines should follow the basic laws of supply and demand and raise wages.
The Federal Aviation Administration should mandate more experience. A 300-hour pilot may be legal on paper, but I believe he or she lacks the judgment and real-life experience to operate an airliner full of people.
Allowing a pilot to fly who doesn't have many years of experience is analogous to allowing a newly licensed 16-year-old to drive a rig full of explosives.

 

[captain dad]

Today's USAToday:

Raise pilot standard

Matthew Asdel - Oceanside, Calif.
A worldwide pilot shortage has caused the regional airlines to lower hiring standards to a dangerous level ("Airlines turn to retirees to help ease pilot shortage," Today in the Sky, USATODAY.com, Feb. 8).

Rather than lowering experience levels, airlines should follow the basic laws of supply and demand and raise wages.
The Federal Aviation Administration should mandate more experience. A 300-hour pilot may be legal on paper, but I believe he or she lacks the judgment and real-life experience to operate an airliner full of people.
Allowing a pilot to fly who doesn't have many years of experience is analogous to allowing a newly licensed 16-year-old to drive a rig full of explosives.

And the choir sings "AMEN!"

I reality the general public doesn't know, doesn't care or a combination of the two. All they care about is ticket prices and the lack of food to stuff in their faces.

These are the same people that buy EVIAN water and no it's not french.

EVIAN, is Naive spelled backwards.

I agree with you for the most part but, the general public are sheep and sheep don't care.

 

[skyward80]

Publisher:

What you say about the "entry price" into aviation is true to a certain degree. I would like to add that the "entry price" is lasting a LOT longer than it used to. If first year pays sucks at ABC Air, the second year pay should make up for that. However, there are many parts of the aviation industry in which this is not so.

I wonder how long a pilot can be expected to pay this entry price before he jumps ship or ships out to some other part of the world.

Skyward80

 

[pilotyip]

30 hr pilots

Today's USAToday:

Raise pilot standard

Matthew Asdel - Oceanside, Calif.
A worldwide pilot shortage has caused the regional airlines to lower hiring standards to a dangerous level ("Airlines turn to retirees to help ease pilot shortage," Today in the Sky, USATODAY.com, Feb. 8).

Rather than lowering experience levels, airlines should follow the basic laws of supply and demand and raise wages.
The Federal Aviation Administration should mandate more experience. A 300-hour pilot may be legal on paper, but I believe he or she lacks the judgment and real-life experience to operate an airliner full of people.
Allowing a pilot to fly who doesn't have many years of experience is analogous to allowing a newly licensed 16-year-old to drive a rig full of explosives.

If properly screened and trained, 300 hr pilots are very capable. Look at the militray 300 hr pilots are flying C-17's around the world, landing F-18's on carriers, and doing low night missons on goggles in an H-53.

 

[gunfyter]

If properly screened and trained, 300 hr pilots are very capable. Look at the militray 300 hr pilots are flying C-17's around the world, landing F-18's on carriers, and doing low night missons on goggles in an H-53.

Yeah, you wanna tell us how much is spent on recruiting and training that 300 hr pilot who lands on a ship in the F-18? I don't think a regional or 135 freight operator will spend that.

 

[John Glenn]

Heres a laugh for you.

I can only hire you if you have 1200 TT. True its single pilot so I can see why. BUT, we haul boxes in 210s and Baron. No pax, no jet A. OUCH. Oh yeah, MKC runs pay between 30-51K for flying a 210 M-F. Still having a helluva time finding pilots. As a pilot I love the oppurtunities, as a recruiter its killing me, as a pax...

 

[pilotyip]

No shipboard landings

Yeah, you wanna tell us how much is spent on recruiting and training that 300 hr pilot who lands on a ship in the F-18? I don't think a regional or 135 freight operator will spend that.

We can do it a lot cheaper; 5,000' RW in a DA-2O is the goal. It is all 121 training to a written standard, all instructors and check airman train to the same standard from the first day of ground school to the PC in the airplanes. Kinda like the military. These 500-hour guys do a good job moving into the right seat of the DA-20. Then four years later they can apply at NJ.

 

[Publishers]

I actually think the problems we are talking about are more serious in the A&P field. The time to decent pay is so much quicker in the auto business and the demand for more people so acute, it is very hard to get young people to spend the time building a maintenance career. When 9/11 happened, many of the auto companies came to me to help in the recruiting effort for their dealerships.
In a way, what we are paying for now is the 9/11 hangover as there was no one starting a flying career for about 2 years. In addition, we looked at some stats that showed people just learning to fly were diminishing but those that did were more likely to be doing it for a career. I got involved in the business of aviation through the pleasure flying side having learned to fly with no intention of it being a career.

 

[NJA Capt]

When most jobs start at poverty level wages and bad work rule, then that equals a shortage in the job market.

Supply and demand.

If the supply is short, employers raise pay to attract remaining workers or entice them from competitors. Airlines on the other hand just keep looking lower. What next, hall passes for high school seniors?

Pathetic.
4 year degree? Nevermind
2000 hours? Nevermind
ATP or FE written passed? Nevermind

Now it is: Can you spell airplane? You're hired!

PS: yip
Those 300 hr F18 pilots spend about 2 years in school and training before they see a boat. They don't take a 50 hour F18 course and head to Iraq. Mil pilots can get dropped at any time if they don't keep up to snuff. The "academy kids" just keep pumping in cash until they pass. Two TOTALLY different circumstances.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

I actually think the problems we are talking about are more serious in the A&P field. The time to decent pay is so much quicker in the auto business and the demand for more people so acute, it is very hard to get young people to spend the time building a maintenance career. When 9/11 happened, many of the auto companies came to me to help in the recruiting effort for their dealerships.
In a way, what we are paying for now is the 9/11 hangover as there was no one starting a flying career for about 2 years. In addition, we looked at some stats that showed people just learning to fly were diminishing but those that did were more likely to be doing it for a career. I got involved in the business of aviation through the pleasure flying side having learned to fly with no intention of it being a career.

Things are much worse on the A&P side. There is a severe shortage of qualified techs out there and experience is drying up. At some of the places I worked at as a tech I saw a lot of new mechanics that didn't have any experience or even a license! Who wants to work on every holiday, nights, weekends, and sign their lives away in many aircraft logbooks for $15 per hour.

 

[StarHustler]

In a way, what we are paying for now is the 9/11 hangover as there was no one starting a flying career for about 2 years. .

Yahtzee! We have a winner! This is so true, I was a flight instructor when 9/11 hit at a big central Florida Flight school that went under 1.5 years afterward. Prior to 9/11 we had students coming out of our ears, afterward we had to drag them in off the street with an unmarked van! Then, those students that 'stuck it out' with aviation as a career told their friends and family that this was NOT the career it used to be and basically, to stay away. I imagine that 'student starts' are up since then, but we are looking at least for a few more years of pilot drought.