PIC Time for upgrade

[cargoflyr69]

All I can write is wow.

Those who've had the easiest time entering this profession are now concerned about how "difficult" and "unfair" it is that they be expected to comply with a rule requiring a paltry amount of actual decision making experience...in a 152 no less.

I've seen a handful of students in the past who were somewhat reluctant to get in an airplane and fly by themselves, but I never thought they'd become airline pilots.

For those who are short the requirements, do yourself a favor:

1. Lock your flight school / airline "standards manual" in a safe somewhere...you're not allowed to take it to your local FBO.

2. Rent a 152/172, and get in it without an instructor.

3. Go have some fun and learn how to make good decisions.

4. Get over your ingrained fear that you'll surely die if you don't have a book to consult, dispatch, or maintenance available by radio if a cumulus cloud should find itself on your path or a circuit breaker should pop.

5. Walk away from your local FBO a better pilot. Perhaps the self respect you gained from not looking for the easiest way to get qualified for your job will allow you to leave your backpack in the trunk of your car before you start your next three day trip.

AMEN!

 

[say again]

Maybe they should hire those with some P-I-C time.

 

[dingo222]

This never used to be a problem. Flight instruction is a lost art.

so is looking at boobies bounce in turbulence without getting caught.

I tell ya what, I had to make more decisions flying around in busted up piston singles and twins than I ever have flying turbine powered stuff. It may be simple and bare bones flying, but it teaches you a lot. Unfortunately, more and more of the newhires recently only know how to be students. From wet commercial ticket, to some transition course, to Indoc at xyz regional, to upgrade. I don't think 250 hrs PIC is asking too much. That's 1/6th of the time required to hold an ATP.

 

[777_Jackpot]

Maybe they should hire those with some P-I-C time.

How does time as PIC make you a better captain?

 

[viper548]

You gotta learn to make your own decisions somewhere along the line. When you're sitting in the right seat that's not you.

 

[say again]

How does time as PIC make you a better captain?

It doesn't. I forgot the sarcastic face afterwards!!:beer:

BUT, it would help when it comes time to having them upgrade and not worrying about who does or doesnt have the time.

 

[777_Jackpot]

so is looking at boobies bounce in turbulence without getting caught.

I tell ya what, I had to make more decisions flying around in busted up piston singles and twins than I ever have flying turbine powered stuff. It may be simple and bare bones flying, but it teaches you a lot. Unfortunately, more and more of the newhires recently only know how to be students. From wet commercial ticket, to some transition course, to Indoc at xyz regional, to upgrade. I don't think 250 hrs PIC is asking too much. That's 1/6th of the time required to hold an ATP.

So, if I understand you correctly, I would be correct in saying that if a pilot has 250 hours of uneventful banner towing, that pilot is more qualified to be a Captain then a "student" that has had 60 hours of distilled training focusing on desicion making?

 

[777_Jackpot]

It doesn't. I forgot the sarcastic face afterwards!!:beer:

BUT, it would help when it comes time to having them upgrade and not worrying about who does or doesnt have the time.

I would absolutely agree with that. Paper work... gotta love it

 

[ratherbeflyen]

How does time as PIC make you a better captain?

God, I hope your kidding.

 

[jbDC9]

Yeah genius, because boring holes through the sky solo, in a Tomahawk, makes you much more qualified to fly with an F/O, in an RJ.

How does time as PIC make you a better captain?

I would be correct in saying that if a pilot has 250 hours of uneventful banner towing, that pilot is more qualified to be a Captain then a "student" that has had 60 hours of distilled training focusing on decision making?

Responses like this indicate to me that you're an idiot and you just don't get the concept of PIC time.

 

[awacs941]

So is the PIC sole manipulator of the controls (1.1) or final decision maker?

 

[Raskal]

So is the PIC sole manipulator of the controls (1.1) or final decision maker?

Most jobs in an interview/application will ask you to differentiate the two...so flying deadhead legs in a jet when you didn't sign for the airplane won't necessarily count.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Most jobs in an interview/application will ask you to differentiate the two...so flying deadhead legs in a jet when you didn't sign for the airplane won't necessarily count.

I don't understand what people mean when they say "sign for the airplane". Do you mean signing the release? That's all I've ever signed.

 

[say again]

I don't understand what people mean when they say "sign for the airplane". Do you mean signing the release? That's all I've ever signed.

That is what they mean.:beer:

When you sign the release, you sign that the A/C is in an airworthy condition according to your preflight procedures.

 

[wmuflyguy]

So is the PIC sole manipulator of the controls (1.1) or final decision maker?

For the 250 hours of PIC toward your ATP It doesn't matter.

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](a) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions:
(i) An applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties and functions of a pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command or any combination thereof, which includes at least:
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time ; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided this aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirement of paragraph (a) however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](1) Second-in-command time
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crew member by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations
(ii) Engaged in operations under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(2) Flight-Engineer Time, provided the time --
(i) is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(1) Credits second-in-command or flight-engineer time under paragraph (c) of this section toward the 1,500 hours total flight time requirement of paragraph (a) of this section;
(2) Does not have at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command time and none of his or her flight engineer time;[/FONT]​

 

[YourPilotFriend]

When filling out a resume for a major coming from 121, only put TT(do not put sim time in there), 121 PIC turbine, 121 SIC turbine, night, and actual Instrument.

When filling out the acutal app you can put the other times in. However, PIC should be command and not sole-manipulator. So dual+PIC doesn't count. Don't put the safety pilot stuff either. A good rule is when in doubt, just go with your 121 time only.

 

[777_Jackpot]

Responses like this indicate to me that you're an idiot and you just don't get the concept of PIC time.

The fact that you cannot provide any other rebuttal to my statements other then "you're an idiot" just solidifies my opinion. Obviously a quality so vague and without explanation cannot be a necessary requisite to be an airline Captain. Or, perhaps I don't get the concept of PIC, I can admit that. But whatever the concept, be it: decision making, leadership or followership etc., it can be taught and applied in a training environment much more effectively and efficiently then in the on-the-job atmosphere of the cockpit of a piston twin.

 

[LivestockTony]

(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time—
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

Thanks for bolding that, I hadn't looked in a while... anyone know why on earth part 125 FE time is not credited (when the FE is a required crewmember)?

-TF
(125, not 135.... covers commercial use of large aircraft when common carriage does not apply)

 

[Leroy Smith]

Yeah genius, because boring holes through the sky solo, in a Tomahawk, makes you much more qualified to fly with an F/O, in an RJ.

The person who is just boring holes in the sky, probably to meet some requirement, is probably not going to get all that much from it. But that is the same person who will not take much away from the best training scenarios either. If they were to put just a little effort into their pursuit of aviation instead of just looking for the easiest way into an RJ, they would be getting quite a bit from it. And anyone truly exercising their CFI/II/MEI (and not just checking off the boxes in the syllabus while they barely pay attention and daydream about the awesome RJ they are going to be flying in a couple of months) will be FAR better qualified to be in command with a FO. Especially the cocky 250hr wonders.

This never used to be a problem. Flight instruction is a lost art.

Amen Captain Box.

 

[Leroy Smith]

How does time as PIC make you a better captain?

What you get from PIC time is the opportunity to have some real "OH SH!T!!" moments.

Whether its staying three steps ahead of your students trying to kill you in a 172, trying to avoid any mention of your name in an NTSB report flying car parts in a crappy Aztruck in even crappier weather, or just the random crap that happens towing banners, traffic watch, etc, etc. They all provide the proper respect for consequences, because you have probably gotten a lot closer to them than 250 hours of a rigidly structured/ supervised syllabus would allow. There is no technique, process or concept that cannot be taught. But no one can be taught a proper appreciation for what they dont know. If you dont have it naturally (and pilot types are not known for their humility), nothing is better than coming really close to screwing the pooch to help get your head on straight. And I think that most people would prefer their pilots to have the pooch-screwing out of the way BEFORE being in command of a 70-90 seat jet.

I can usually tell which Captains have had some real world experience outside of the BarbieJet and the bell jar of 121 Ops.
I know exactly which ones I would want to be flying with as an FO or PIC when the defecation hits the rotary oscillator.

But what do I know. If you have the right date of hire, ATP mins and can get past a type ride, you're in, regardless.