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Pft

gfvalvo

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I've noticed a lot of visceral and mean-spirited posts on this topic lately. I don't get it. I'm just a piston GA guy. I don't fly for a living and I never even heard of the PFT controversy until I joined this forum. So, would someone please explain the issue in a non-sarcastic, non-condescending, non-smart a$$ way? What is the concept? Why doesn't it work? Why is it bad? Is it always bad? Why do all pilots have to get their training and ratings in the same way? Why does it provoke such an emotional response in people whose profession (and lives) depend on rational thought?

Thanks.
 

SDCFI

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Oh no, not again.

So, anyone know any good bar-b-que joints in Dothan, AL? Been spending a lot of time there lately. You can only go to Hooters so many times. Well, maybe not, but still.
 

indianboy7

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Theres a joint just up the same road from hooters....forgot what it was called...but not bad.....and if you go down the street where the outback is theres another place there................on another note....theres a benihana style place near (in the corner of the parking lot i think) of the walmart that's pretty good.....I spent 3 weeks there once, and i feel your pain...



SDCFI said:
So, anyone know any good bar-b-que joints in Dothan, AL? Been spending a lot of time there lately. You can only go to Hooters so many times. Well, maybe not, but still.
 

gfvalvo

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SDCFI said:
So, anyone know any good bar-b-que joints in Dothan, AL? Been spending a lot of time there lately. You can only go to Hooters so many times. Well, maybe not, but still.
So you failed the non-sarcastic, non-condescending, non-smart a$$ test. Anyone care to come up with a serious reply?
 

TIS

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gfvalvo said:
So, would someone please explain the issue in a non-sarcastic, non-condescending, non-smart a$$ way?
I'll give it a shot.
gfvalvo said:
What is the concept?
Pilot wants to be an airline pilot but doesn't want to take the time to accrue experience and build a career. An option is to Pay For Training (PFT). With minimal qualifications pilots can sign up fir these programs where they basically pay for their own type specific training and as a result are accorded an opportunity to become employed by an airline that kind of aircraft.

gfvalvo said:
Why doesn't it work?
It DOES work. That's the big problem.

gfvalvo said:
Why is it bad?
Because as soon as you allow a person to pay for their own airline training you turn them in to a customer. Customers are treated differently than ordinary applicants. The customer is always right.

Now, the people and the companies that PFT swear up and down that the customer aspect of this issue is a NON-issue - that safety and standards of performance are upheld - and in general I would say that's accurate. But I have also been in the simulator with guys who've PFTd and it can be a less than perfect training period for all concerned.

On the line inexperience and poor acumen can be a real problem if an emergency or other distracting event occurs. The PIC most likely has the experience to deal with the situation but he may well have to do it by himself if he's carrying 180 lbs of feathers next to him.

gfvalvo said:
Is it always bad?
No, not always, at least not from an operational perspective. But from the perspective of those of use who have earned our careers the old fashioned way - by struggling through the hours and hours of actually DOING the job - paying to get your start without any other visible qualifications beyond breathing with a pulse just doesn't cut it. There is ofen a deep sense in those around him that the PFTer has "cut in line" ahead of other more qualified applicants simply because they had the bankroll to do it. That somtimes chaps a hide or two.

Does that help?

TIS
 
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Snakum

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I never really understood the furor over Hooter's BBQ Hot Wings. They are merely average, to me. We have a local joint called JP Looney's, however, that has the most awesomely scrumptious wings I've ever eaten. Just unbelievable!

The Hooters taste test must be influenced by all the boobies bouncing around while you're eating 'em.

Minh
 

enigma

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I just wrote a long reply and somehow lost it. Now, I'm short on time, so I'll try to shorten this one.

PFT is one of the reasons that wages have fallen do dramatically. It is the term that opportunistic employers adopted for their practice of selling jobs. Back in the 90's, airlines like Continental Express, Comair and others had an oversupply of applicants. Instead of raising their mins (effective mins) like SWA is now doing, they just added the requirement that a prospective pilot pay for his job. In order to make people feel good, they laid down the "training" smoke screen. In fact, back in the day, an airline like Comair would rather hire a wanna be with $18000 than they would hire a current qualified E120 pilot who wasn't willing to pay. So it had nothing to do with "training". PFT was, and is, purely about buying a job.

Ironically, PFT advocates will say that they did what they needed to do to get to their dream job asap. Now, they find themselves stuck at poor paying regionals, or furloughed from their dream job,Because another pilot is undercutting them.

later, enigma
 

TIS

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I have a FAR more important question!

SDCFI said:
So, anyone know any good bar-b-que joints in Dothan, AL? Been spending a lot of time there lately. You can only go to Hooters so many times. Well, maybe not, but still.

How do you get the sauce stains out of your shirt/tie before the pax show up again? The food's worth it but time is limited and the options are few.

TIS
 

RichardRambone

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PFT is whack b/c if two guys want the same job, you as an employer can have a choice. You Have one guy who wants a decent wage to feed his family and make a living doing what hes struggled to do his whole career or a guy whose willing to pay YOU for the "privilige" of flying for him. Which would you choose? PFT programs focus on those who dont have the experience or hours (isnt that everyone?) but the bank to be able to buy a job. This heats up guys like me that are slowly but surely getting experience the real way. PFT pilots arent real pilots in my book.
 

PCL_128

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TIS said:
Pilot wants to be an airline pilot but doesn't want to take the time to accrue experience and build a career.

This is a gross generalization that, more often than not, just isn't accurate. Most pilots who PFT'd at GIA, RAA, TAB, etc... weren't trying to cut in front of the line, they just didn't know any better. The typical PFT'er at GIA was one of two types of people:

1. Kid just out of high school or college who knew nothing or very little about the industry and just thought that PFT was an accepted norm because the recruiters told him so

2. Late in life career changer that, again, didn't know much about the industry and just thought that PFT was a normal way of getting started in the biz.

All of this crap about GIA and TAB pilots wanting to cut in front of everyone else is just ridiculous. Everyone makes these kinds of generalizations, yet I'd wager that most of you have never even met a GIA or TAB pilot in person.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled BBQ discussion.
 

pilotyip

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There are alot of PFT Captains at NetJets, and the regionals who have been there going on 15 years, they are making good money. It was a sign of the times inthe 90's until the PFT pool dryed up. I was ready to PFT at ACA (Indy Air)in 1996, but I could not live on first year F/O's pay. If I had known I would make Captain in about three months after getting on line, I would have leaped at the job. Ah! hindsight. PFT verus unempolyment for a job you can live on, tuff choice.
 

mayday1

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enigma said:
PFT is one of the reasons that wages have fallen do dramatically.

Enigma, I would argue that PFT does not help the low wage issue, but it is not the reason that wages are pathetically low... For a moment, take the concept/practice of PFT completely out of the picture... are wages now going to improve? Absolutely not. As long as an oversupply of qualified pilots line up to take FO jobs at $18k/yr, wages will remain low, or move lower.

Every pilot who takes one of these jobs validates management's position that they're costing out pilot salaries appropriately. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if wages moved even lower... heck, I don't think these airlines would stop seeing a steady stream of eager applicants even at $12k/yr.
 

XTW

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SW and the B737 type

If you have to buy a B737 type to get hired at SW, is that considered PFT?


X
 

pilotyip

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Actually the PFT job at ACA in 1996 paid about $4k a year more than a non-PFT job.
 

Thedude

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Snakum said:
I never really understood the furor over Hooter's BBQ Hot Wings. They are merely average, to me. We have a local joint called JP Looney's, however, that has the most awesomely scrumptious wings I've ever eaten. Just unbelievable!

The Hooters taste test must be influenced by all the boobies bouncing around while you're eating 'em.

Minh

Are you talking about the JP Looneys on Holden Rd?
 

Thedude

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XTW said:
If you have to buy a B737 type to get hired at SW, is that considered PFT?


X

No...that is not PFT. Its just another qualifaction that you have to meet.
 

gfvalvo

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RichardRambone said:
This heats up guys like me that are slowly but surely getting experience the real way. PFT pilots arent real pilots in my book.
yea, and I had to walk to school 10 miles, barefoot through snow, uphill - both ways ... :rolleyes:
 
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PCL_128

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RichardRambone said:
PFT pilots arent real pilots in my book.

Spoken by the man with all of 650 hours TT. Yeah, you're the real pilot and the guys at Comair that PFT'd back in '91 who are now senior Captains are just posers. :rolleyes:
 

Publishers

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The more traditional definition that caused resentment was when a "student" who was paying for training was replacing a job that should have been a paid one.

The fact that you needed a 737 rating to be hired was not PFT nor did it have to do much with ratings.

In the early days at Gulfstream as example, the 402's would have a pilot and a student. The student was paying to be there and build time. This was a gray area as the fact is the aircraft could have been flown by a crew of one so the student was really not replacing someone's job.

There have been others -- Tab (forget what you thought of the company had another concept... their students actually flew King Airs like an airline would. That way they were getting supposed airline type experrience in a multi engine turbine aircraft, a very desired time to other employers.

While the debate will go on, the fact is that the traditional path of doing flight instruction and then trying to find sic jobs in multi engine turbine equipment may or may not appeal to all. Those with resources seek to speed up the process.

When I learned to fly, we knew we were going to seek multi engine instrument licenses. We bought a plane and our training was always geared to that from the start. We were doing instrument work from the get go. We could have just done the single engine private pilot thing for all the hours or we could expedite it. We went the more efficent way.
 

learflyer

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TIS said:
How do you get the sauce stains out of your shirt/tie before the pax show up again? The food's worth it but time is limited and the options are few.

TIS

I don't know about bbq stains, but the guy I was flying with once had some Oxy clean with him. Just before the pax showed up, I had a meatball make four perfect bounces down my shirt like a boulder bounicing down a mountain. He had the oxy clean "stick" which is easy to carry and did the job!!
 
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