Pft

[Thedude]

If you have to buy a B737 type to get hired at SW, is that considered PFT?


X

No...that is not PFT. Its just another qualifaction that you have to meet.

 

[gfvalvo]

This heats up guys like me that are slowly but surely getting experience the real way. PFT pilots arent real pilots in my book.

yea, and I had to walk to school 10 miles, barefoot through snow, uphill - both ways ...

 

[PCL_128]

PFT pilots arent real pilots in my book.

Spoken by the man with all of 650 hours TT. Yeah, you're the real pilot and the guys at Comair that PFT'd back in '91 who are now senior Captains are just posers.

 

[Publishers]

The more traditional definition that caused resentment was when a "student" who was paying for training was replacing a job that should have been a paid one.

The fact that you needed a 737 rating to be hired was not PFT nor did it have to do much with ratings.

In the early days at Gulfstream as example, the 402's would have a pilot and a student. The student was paying to be there and build time. This was a gray area as the fact is the aircraft could have been flown by a crew of one so the student was really not replacing someone's job.

There have been others -- Tab (forget what you thought of the company had another concept... their students actually flew King Airs like an airline would. That way they were getting supposed airline type experrience in a multi engine turbine aircraft, a very desired time to other employers.

While the debate will go on, the fact is that the traditional path of doing flight instruction and then trying to find sic jobs in multi engine turbine equipment may or may not appeal to all. Those with resources seek to speed up the process.

When I learned to fly, we knew we were going to seek multi engine instrument licenses. We bought a plane and our training was always geared to that from the start. We were doing instrument work from the get go. We could have just done the single engine private pilot thing for all the hours or we could expedite it. We went the more efficent way.

 

[learflyer]

How do you get the sauce stains out of your shirt/tie before the pax show up again? The food's worth it but time is limited and the options are few.

TIS

I don't know about bbq stains, but the guy I was flying with once had some Oxy clean with him. Just before the pax showed up, I had a meatball make four perfect bounces down my shirt like a boulder bounicing down a mountain. He had the oxy clean "stick" which is easy to carry and did the job!!

 

[macfly]

What about the guys that want to be career flight instructors? Guys using instructing as a stepping stone/work for cheap/ hurt career instructors salaries.

If I were a career instructor, I would be happy if some pilots that wanted to fly for the airlines would leave my sector alone.

Its a simply supply and demand problem and the man knows it.

 

[Snakum]

Are you talking about the JP Looneys on Holden Rd?

Yeppers. Their wings are the most awesome thing ever done with a yard-buzzard.

but the guy I was flying with once had some Oxy clean with him

I have also heard about the OxyKleen thing, but not about the Oxy stick, however. Supposedly, you can sink-wash a BBQ-stained white pilot shirt with Oxy and it is perfect, once dry.

It's about time someone got this thread back on track.

Minh

 

[TIS]

This is a gross generalization that, more often than not, just isn't accurate.

So you're saying that the kinds of people I've described here don't exist. D'ya know where gross oversimplifications come from? That's right! Things that are true to enough of an extent that they become popularized. There's another word for it - stereotype. It's sometimes ugly but then the truth is sometimes that way.

Most pilots who PFT'd at GIA, RAA, TAB, etc... weren't trying to cut in front of the line, they just didn't know any better.

Sorry, not buyin' this either. They just didn't think of it that way. What they were trying so hard to do was get a job in as big a hurry as they could - which means in as little time as possible - which means with as little experience as possible. The only way to accomplish that was to pay for the priviledge. All of this was okay though - as long as you got the job. That PROVED you were worthy. And maybe you were!

The typical PFT'er at GIA was one of two types of people:

Okay, I'll read on.

1. Kid just out of high school or college who knew nothing or very little about the industry and just thought that PFT was an accepted norm because the recruiters told him so

BZZZZST. Wrong answer, but thanks for playing! I don't care how young or naive you are, just a few weeks pursuing a career in aviation spotlights PFT in all its glory. It's far more accurate to say that they made a decision that they didn't care - a decision that could qualify for a "thing-done-while-young-and-stupid" exemption. I don't see too many future doctors or lawyers having the trouble you seem to think pilots have in researching the best ways to achieve the goals they strive to reach. Are the pilots just lazy or something?

2. Late in life career changer that, again, didn't know much about the industry and just thought that PFT was a normal way of getting started in the biz.

This is also unfortunately, incorrect. People who change careers midstream also have the sense derived from life experience to know when they're running afoul of others. They too made a decision that they didn't care because they were about out of time to make a legitimate go of it so they pressed on using assets they had worked hard to obtain up to that point.

All of this crap about GIA and TAB pilots wanting to cut in front of everyone else is just ridiculous. Everyone makes these kinds of generalizations, yet I'd wager that most of you have never even met a GIA or TAB pilot in person.

Perhaps I should be clearer. PFT has the EFFECT of allowing those who participate in it to cut in line - whether those who do so intend this or not.

PFT pilots are not generally bad people. They are sometimes BAD PILOTS however, and that fact stems directly from the caliber of THEIR pilot qualifications versus the caliber of the qualifications required to do the job. anyone can be taught to fly a plane - It's monkey motion. Not everyone should be a crewmember in an airliner - a least not at 1000 hours.

TIS

 

[PCL_128]

TIS, you can believe whatever you want, but what I said is the honest to God truth. If you choose to believe that PFT'ers are all cheaters and unethical people that can't fly worth a crap, then go right ahead. I do my best to let people know the truth about guys that went to GIA, and I'll continue to do that. None of us GIA pilots were trying to cheat the system or cut in line. We were all just trying to start a career in aviation, and as far as we knew, this was a legitimate way to do it. But, like I said, believe whatever you want. I must ask however, how many PFT'ers do you know? Do your stereotypes come from personal experience with PFT'ers? I seriously doubt it. Most people on this board just repeat the same tired attacks against GIA and TAB without ever having met a pilot from either place. Are you the exception?

 

[TIS]

TIS, you can believe whatever you want, but what I said is the honest to God truth. If you choose to believe that PFT'ers are all cheaters and unethical people that can't fly worth a crap, then go right ahead. I do my best to let people know the truth about guys that went to GIA, and I'll continue to do that. None of us GIA pilots were trying to cheat the system or cut in line. We were all just trying to start a career in aviation, and as far as we knew, this was a legitimate way to do it. But, like I said, believe whatever you want. I must ask however, how many PFT'ers do you know? Do your stereotypes come from personal experience with PFT'ers? I seriously doubt it. Most people on this board just repeat the same tired attacks against GIA and TAB without ever having met a pilot from either place. Are you the exception?

Don't you think you're over-reacting just a little bit?

When did I EVER say anything about the airlines you mentioned - much less attack anyone in a fatigued sort of way? The answer, inconveniently for you, is that IT DIDN'T happen SO GET OFF IT!

With over four times the 2900 hours you lay claim to I can safely say that I am at least ONE exception. It's proper to presume that you weren't around throughout the 90s as I was, so, for your information my experience comes from being DIRECTLY involved with some PFTers - many of whom were, and remain, VERY FINE PILOTS! It's just that they were as green as bean sprouts when I dragged their narrow behinds through simulator training and checking in 1994. I alluded to this stuff in my first two posts but, as you've chosen to ignore that part of what I said in favor of being a victim, I must now tan your hiney - just a bit.

You say you were just trying to start a career in aviation. Really?!? How serious could you have been that you didn't know that the path you were taking was as controversial as it was? Or was this just the career-de-la-semaine for you and your contemporaries? You went out and spent tens of thousands of dollars based on what? A hunch? You did NO research on your chosen field of endeavor?

Know what? That passes no reasonableness test I can think of! They just don't make that much Kool Aid. You had to have known what you were getting into at some point along the way and you made a choice to ignore the possible downside risks. Now you're stuck defending yourself against an impression that YOU helped create amongst your professional peers (notice the term "peers"). That's right! You helped do this to YOURSELF, though I'm sure you can think of ways that people like me are somehow responsible for the path you "had" to take. It's really the industry's fault, isn't it?

Now, having said all that, my comments came from a fairly modest point of view that simply explained what PFT is and why some resent it. For the record, what on earth have I got to resent? Nothing! So my comments were purely explanatory. It was never my intention to get into a shouting match over this issue - that's not what the question deserved as a response but that's what you've helped turn it into. If you would like to continue to argue with me I can assure you it will get a LOT uglier with little or no benefit to anyone. I think now might be a good time to stop.

Besides, as with a lot of things in aviation, I've been there and done that. Now I've done this so I'll excuse myself now.

TIS

 

[TIS]

I don't know about bbq stains, but the guy I was flying with once had some Oxy clean with him. Just before the pax showed up, I had a meatball make four perfect bounces down my shirt like a boulder bounicing down a mountain. He had the oxy clean "stick" which is easy to carry and did the job!!

Ya suppose it'd work on "mustard tie" or "Jelly shirt?"

 

[PCL_128]

Don't you think you're over-reacting just a little bit?

Possibly. I've been known to get kind of worked up at times. My apologies.

You say you were just trying to start a career in aviation. Really?!? How serious could you have been that you didn't know that the path you were taking was as controversial as it was? Or was this just the career-de-la-semaine for you and your contemporaries? You went out and spent tens of thousands of dollars based on what? A hunch? You did NO research on your chosen field of endeavor?

The research that I and my "peers" did was mostly relegated to the information that comes from the recruiting and marketing departments of the various academies. I had no idea that flightinfo or jetcareers or any other message board was out here at the time. I simply sent away for information from a couple dozen flight schools just like you would do for a college. After picking a few schools and touring them I made a decision. That decision happened to be GIA. Not until I was already an FO on the 1900 did a friend show me a flightinfo discussion about GIA. That was the first time I ever saw flightinfo, let alone a PFT bashing session. I had never even heard the term PFT until then.

It was never my intention to get into a shouting match over this issue - that's not what the question deserved as a response but that's what you've helped turn it into. If you would like to continue to argue with me I can assure you it will get a LOT uglier with little or no benefit to anyone. I think now might be a good time to stop.

Never intended to get into a shouting match. I perceived an attack on my character and I responded. I merely want to point out that most PFT'ers have no intention of cutting in front of anyone or anything else of the sort. Too often that generalization is made. If that wasn't your intent, then I guess is was just a misunderstanding.

 

[FN FAL]

No...that is not PFT. Its just another qualifaction that you have to meet.

How gay is that? Take a turd and put sprinkles on it, then put it on some china instead of a paper plate and all the sudden it's not PFT. Whatever...

 

[kingaira90]

MMMMMM wings

"I have also heard about the OxyKleen thing, but not about the Oxy stick, however. Supposedly, you can sink-wash a BBQ-stained white pilot shirt with Oxy and it is perfect, once dry.

It's about time someone got this thread back on track.

Minh[/QUOTE]

Both Oxykleen and Shout have wipes. They are about the size of wetnaps but have the cleaning stuff on them. You just rub the stain with the little cloth til it dissapears, they may contain magic. They come in a box with maybe 12. I carry a couple in my bag. I have used both and the Shout type work the best. The oxykleen type work on organic stains (bbq sauce, ketchup etc), but are lousy on oil. The shout work well on both. The key is to get to the stain before it dries, they are much less effective then.

If you happen to see a Quaker Steak and Lube on the road, then go to it. Mostly in Southern Ohio and PA. Kick A$$ wings, lots of variety, none of that nasty breading. They have a cool automotive theme. Lots of cool cars, motor cycles and gas station stuff all over the place. Not a big fan of hooters wings, the scenery is a different story . -kingaira90

 

[Snakum]

The key is to get to the stain before it dries, they are much less effective then.

But will it work on 'pecker tracks'?


Minh