Pft Help!

[bobbysamd]

Thanks, Ty.

 

[8sm]

From the exchanges of ideas and experiences on this board, you can't help but form a respect to certain poster leaving you with the feeling like you almost know them. Not really meeting the person or spending time with them you are left to form an good or bad opinion about them based on their written words. Then, race and gender questions are responded too. Some of us are left disappointed.

 

[enigma]

Re: PFT article...

I found an interesting article that sheds some light on the question paying for training.

Hey Airmack,
That Air, Inc article sheds no light on the subject, it only tells how PFT can be obtained and who AIR Inc. thinks is a candidate. It also omits the longterm damage the PFT inflicts on your wages and your profession. Here are few things to think about.

First, management uses PFT only when there is an oversupply of pilots, and the vast majority of PFT'rs used PFT to cut in line ahead of more qualified pilots. Meaning that as soon as the next oversupply hits (it's here now), PFT will once again rear it's ugly head. If you have the misfortune of losing your job flying that 1900 during this time, you will find that you can't find another one because there is a long line of uninformed PFT'rs who are willing to pay for your job.

Next, for PFT to help your career, (assuming that you don't care about the other issues, issues such as fairness, qualification, wage depression, etc) your timing must be absolutely perfect. You must PFT at a time when the hiring cycle has just started up and you're sure that it will stay up for the amount of time necessary for you to obtain enough experience to get a high paying job. If you are able to get one of the high paying positions and gain enough seniority to be furlough proof(assuming that you didn't go to work for the next PanAm,EAL, etc), then and only then will having PFT'd pay off. In other words, times must be good and stay good enough, long enough for you to climb over enough peoples backs to ensure that they can't repay you in the future. I know of only one time that this was possible. Some who PFT'd in the middle ninetys were able to spend a short time at a regional, then get on at a major in time to gain some seniority before slow times returned. Once again I say, that if they didn't care about the negative effects on the profession, it did work for them. It remains to be seen if the industry will recover from the economic slowdown and 9/11. If things remain slow, and more furloughs, chapter 11's, etc happen, you even those who thought that PFT had worked may find themselves looking for a job in a market in which someone who is less qualified gets the jobs just because he/she is willing to pay for them.

AIR Inc. presents PFT as if it is a legitimate option. That assumption had been made before the article was written. Please remember that those type of businesses make a profit by encouraging an oversupply. Because it is only in an oversupply when their services can be sold. Think about this, if this wasn't an employers market, they would come to you. IE, you wouldn't need AIR Inc to get you an address.

As for your comment to Bobbysam about his qualifications. He makes reasonable, well worded posts and has never offered himself as an expert. So lighten up a little.

8N

 

[publisher]

In defense

Boy I hate trying to defend Kit but you are way off base about this supply stuff being of any concern to him......

Secondly, it is an option and it is not Kit's job or mind to care much about the peception of great damage done to the profession by this type of situation.

Third, works better during the tought times than during the over supply times.

Fourth, I can see no evidence that PFT hurts your wages and that is probably who you care about.

Fifth, damage to the profession , nice philosophy if you do not want reality to interfere with how you think things should be.

Is this possibly distasteful to some, yes. Reason to legitimately not like it, yes. Destroying the profession. a lot of people seem to be working on that

 

[46Driver]

I'll side with Publisher. I do agree with most of what 8N says but draw a different conclusion. By that line of reasoning, nobody should apply at Southwest because they require a 737 type rating (or at least use to). Also, everybody should boycott all of the airlines that give preferential hiring to minorities and females with fewer hours and qualifications. Nobody should go to flight school unless they earn all of the money themselves and accept no help from your family. Obviously, this is not reality. The real world is not fair. Get used to it. PFT is not desirable but it is preferable to the alternative of not being hired and delaying your career while others are passing you by. This is still America where initiative is rewarded - at least until the Democrats return to power.......

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Kit, again

Thanks, Enigma. My opinions are basically that, opinions, though I feel they are well grounded in the empirical knowledge I've gained, as I described above. Others have had different experiences and will have different opinions.

Apart from the oversupply point that Enigma makes, one of the big things that rankles me about P-F-T is the cutting-in-front-of-the-line aspect. That's a fairness issue in every way. Once again, how would you feel if you worked hard at something for years and at great personal sacrifice to get your chance, and see someone who is less qualified and/or could write a check get the same chance? Wouldn't you feel at least a little resentment toward that person and harbor resentment for others like him/her? Most people would.

I experienced the same thing in my career before aviation. Apologies to those who've read this already, but I mention it again in the interests of clarity. I worked hard in my radio career to advance to a certain point, and at great personal sacrifice. I had goals. I built up enough background to where I was attractive to bigger radio stations. I got the job and with decent hours, and am put on a bad shift, which I did despite my chagrin to be a good guy and also to keep working. I was promised that I would have better hours. Then, the company hires someone who was okay but with less experience and puts this person on the shift I was promised. I consider P-F-T to be fully analagous to this experience.

Pub makes a point that P-F-T is an option (albeit a bad option - once again, just my opinion). However, Kit demonstrated irresponsibility by not presenting the downside of P-F-T. Yeah, he pointed out how so many pilots lost money in the Family Airlines debacle and tried to compare that to P-F-T. I realize that Kit is not the New York Times and is a pilot/promoter and not a journalist. In the same breath, we should all realize that Kit runs a business and is promoting an agenda intended to support his business, and what he says is bound to be one-sided.

We want to know the truth; perhaps Kit can't or won't handle the truth.

Finally, not to fan the flames on this debate, but I dunno if you can really regard the 737 type requirement for Southwest as true P-F-T. P-F-T is generally defined as training for which YOU pay to a company that is specific to that company - meaning it's probably useless elsewhere. Your 737 type is yours and will be recognized as such by anyone. Once again, just my opinion.

 

[46bubba]

While PFT may blow, it is an indictment of the companies and not the folks who take advantage of it. Never begrudge a man for taking advantage of a good deal (relatively speaking). As far as the "damage" it does to the industry and the pilots group as a whole, that's crap. The people who choose to take this route are trying to get a career going and if this is what it takes, then so be it. So much of this post smacks of snobbery and the proverbial "paying your dues" rhetoric that it it is comical. As someone posted, PFT rears its ugly head when the supply is high and the demand is low. However, that's reality and if you want to take some b.s. high road as if you are better than PFT, then do it quietly.
To whomever started this post, if you have the jack and stamina to go the PFT route, then do it because the only thing that is going to get you into a major (presumably everyone's goal here) is turbine PIC and you need to figure out how you are going to do it. As some drunk Irishman more or less once said, "Don't let the bastards get you down".
Last item, as far as 20 year old black females getting "there" before the rest of us, so what. Suck it up and do what you need to do. When you are the H.M.F.I.C., change it.

 

[enigma]

Re: In defense

Publisher, I don't know why you defend those guys either.
You said, "Boy I hate trying to defend Kit but you are way off base about this supply stuff being of any concern to him...... "\

What type of reasoning allows you to say this? He is in business, and needs clients. The more people that are looking for a job the better for his business.

Next you say, "Secondly, it is an option and it is not Kit's job or mind to care much about the peception of great damage done to the profession by this type of situation. "

That obvious distast for the profession sort of flies in the face of your previous statements that you cared for the profession and wanted to bring in the best and the brightest.

Then you say, "Third, works better during the tought times than during the over supply times. "

The tough times ARE the oversupply times.

Next you say."Fourth, I can see no evidence that PFT hurts your wages and that is probably who you care about. "

PFT hurt my wages by filling the profession up with people were willing to work for nothing. I was at MESA before PFT, and I am a personal witness to having management stand up and say such things as: "men, every pilot in this stack of resumes is willing to work for less than you are making now. there will be no raises." When the level of resumes from people who were willing to pay for a job reached a great enough level, MESA instituted a PFT program. This is really simple economics, no manager is going to pay more for a product than he has to, and labor doesn't get much cheaper than when it pays you for a job.

Then you make a fifth point, "Fifth, damage to the profession , nice philosophy if you do not want reality to interfere with how you think things should be. "

OK, your good with a quip, so what is reality?

Then you finish with this. "Is this possibly distasteful to some, yes. Reason to legitimately not like it, yes. Destroying the profession. a lot of people seem to be working on that."

What does that mean? Are we all supposed to sit idly by while others destroy a profession? Is that what you are saying?
Why does someone who makes his living helping pilots succeed in a profession seem to have such a distaste for pilots, especially airline pilots? Just what is your idea of upholding the profession?

One last point. Reality is this. People are selfish and PFT is a way to buy what you want and get it now. I can deal with that, because that is reality. But PFT only gets them what they want if there remain enough high paying jobs when they get to the high level. Considering the current climate in the industry, there are going to be a lot of disappointed PFT'rs when they arrive at a "major" only to find that the glory days are over. If you can prove to me that wages will stay high over the long term even in an unregulated, oversupplied market, I will stop arguing. In the mean time, if I have the time, I will continue to attempt to convince others that working for less is not a good longterm strategy.
later

 

[enigma]

..... because the only thing that is going to get you into a major (presumably everyone's goal here) is turbine PIC and you need to figure out how you are going to do it. .............

46bubba,

Your reasoning presumes that a major airline job will be worth having. I agree with your basic philosophy, If you'll allow me to paraphrase, that one does whatever is necessary to get to the top. If PFT is what it takes to get to the top, then so be it.

My concern is that so many took the PFT route in hopes of it leading to a seat in the left side of a UAL747 (and earning the money that goes with it); but with the way the industry is going, there either won't be any UAL747s, or they will not be paying nearly what they used to for 747 Captains. Management will not long pay more for a product than their competition pays for the same product. Why should DAL pay one 737 Captain $150 per hour when they can pay two RJ Captains a combined $100 per hour? Or, how long can DAL pay a 737 Captain $150 per hour when AirTran flys the same route with a 737 Captain who makes $95 per hour? Whether we like it or not, overall/industrywide wages are coming down. The overall economy demands that travel become cheaper, and cheap laborers demand that the rest of us accept less in order to maintain our jobs.
regards

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa gReed and P-F-T

Enigma is right. One thing at which Mesa excelled was making money, through greed and taking advantage of poor souls who wanted to be airline pilots.

At the outset, I'll say that I worked at MAPD. I know the program. It is not fair to label the school as P-F-T because the Commercial certificates that people earned were good anywhere. Perhaps those who didn't get "the interview" faced tough interviewing elsewhere when asked how come Mesa didn't interview or hire them, as advertised. Except for one individual, I had students who earned and deserved an intervew. Yes, Mesa made money off these folks' flight training and probably saved on training costs because these folks had learned Mesa's procedures during their MAPD training, just as Kit states in his article. But, it was not P-F-T.

What Mesa established was more insidious than P-F-T, if such a thing is possible. It set up an ATP rating course. You paid your money, came to Farmington, trained with an MAPD instructor in a Baron, and took the ATP practical with a Mesa check airman who was also a DE. Pass on the first try and, guess what? You got your ATP ticket AND an interview with Mesa! Pay-for-interview. Fail and be rechecked and you got your ATP, but no interview. There were people who passed and people who failed. I didn't keep track of the percentages. Who knows if these folks could have been given an interview just by sending in an app? Who knows? But, they paid for their's.

I believe that at the same time Mesa established some kind of bridge program for low-timers, similar to what Comair set up during the same time period. It was the predecessor of the PACE program.

Airline pilots have historically battled those who will work for less. Read the chapter about E.L. Cord in Flying the Line. P-F-T is another hurdle to be overcome. Maybe P-F-T is something ALPA should take up.

 

[enigma]

Re: Mesa gReed and P-F-T

Airline pilots have historically battled those who will work for less. Read the chapter about E.L. Cord in Flying the Line. P-F-T is another hurdle to be overcome. Maybe P-F-T is something ALPA should take up.

thanks for the details of Mesas PFT. Like I said, I left before any of that actually started. I did hear Grady and JohnnyO make the statement about how many resumes they had from people who would take the job for less.

About ALPA and PFT, It'll never happen, you see the top of ALPA knows the truth. They understand that their purpose is to keep out the rif-raf and to maintain the income for themselves. They know that qualification/fairness/honesty/integrety have nothing to do with getting on, so a lot of them sent their sons and daughters to PFT programs during the mid ninetys when it became obvious that the hiring boom might last long enough for them to get their kids on at the the family airline. No, I'm really not bitter, just a little sarcastic. I am tired of major/mainline ALPA running all of ALPA for the good of the big six, or seven. It doesn't seem to bug a lot of them if the entry and lower levels are terrible jobs, they've already got theirs.

Oh well. I'm going to succeed in spite of them.
regards
8N

 

[Timebuilder]

46buba wrote:

So much of this post smacks of snobbery and the proverbial "paying your dues" rhetoric that it it is comical. As someone posted, PFT rears its ugly head when the supply is high and the demand is low. However, that's reality and if you want to take some b.s. high road as if you are better than PFT, then do it quietly.
To whomever started this post, if you have the jack and stamina to go the PFT route, then do it because the only thing that is going to get you into a major (presumably everyone's goal here) is turbine PIC and you need to figure out how you are going to do it. As some drunk Irishman more or less once said, "Don't let the bastards get you down".
Last item, as far as 20 year old black females getting "there" before the rest of us, so what. Suck it up and do what you need to do. When you are the H.M.F.I.C., change it.

46 buba-
This sounds much like something I might have written in my twenties, before I had accrued much life experience. Me, me, me. Do what ever it takes, integrity and the high road be d**ned . I won't bore all of the others with a long post where I reinterate my reasoning about PFT. Instead, I'll suggest you read through some threads like "anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?" and learn about some of the experienced advice of long-time aviators on the subject.

Instead of a narrow, me-only-at-any-cost personal view, I suggest you get the "Big Picture". Avaition is a family, albeit a dysfunctional one, and we need to look out for one another. It's the basis of the idea of collective bargaining. What one person agrees to do has repercussions for all of us. We can change industry trends by acting together. If Big Iron ALPA pilots are the ONLY ones who send their kids to PFT, then it will be so rare as to die by starvation.

There is no problem with anyone, including a twenty year old black female getting there before anyone else. In America, the one I was raised in (and the one Dr. King saw) we need to encourage the idea that she gets there before all of the other applicants who are less qualified, not less female or less black.

Remember when you were in school, and a kid butted in line? How was he received? Was he applauded, or was he punched, pushed, and cursed? Elementary school is in many ways a microcosm of social life. There is a lesson there.

The dues you pay in aviation don't simply represent a place in line, they represent experience built over time. Seasoning. Learning. Being mentored. Being a mentor. That is the dues paying you find so comical.

Personal advice from an older pilot: There is only ONE HMFIC, and neither you or I am HE. You might consider spending some time in his word, too.

I'll get down off of my soapbox now.

Next...

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks, 8N, for a great post- one that summed up things that most of us who were around in the last tough pilot market saw first hand.

Publisher- you continue to play Devil's Advocate. Fine, but try to get a better understanding of how PFT has affected wages. The information is there, but you have to be willing to see it.

I'll tell you this- in the mid Nineties, when PFT was in full swing, if your regional was in contract negotiations, you could count on management saying, "Hey, at least you guys didn't have to pay for your training, so you're already ahead by $7,000. . . ".

And as for the military guy with the "me, me, me!" attitude- remove PFT from your post, and replace it with "cross a picket line" and you'll see that the arguments you raise in favor of PFT sound just like the same things a scab says in defense of his choices, too.

 

[publisher]

Apology

I apologize for the short quips, we have become a nation of soundbites.

1. I believe that there is a chain that starts with a young person looking to the skies and wanting to fly. At the other end is an astronaut. It is the pilot community and a career chain.

It is also competitive, very comptitive and not necessarily very fair or equitable. Throughout the chain, opportunities present themselves to move around some folks that are ahead of you. These opportunities have nothing at all to do with skill or experience, they are just that.

To move forward, one has to achieve some things. As stated multi engine turbine time being one, various ratings another. These lead to more opportunities. PFT may be one of these, a low paying job that you get a rating out of another.

You and only you need to figure out where you are in the chain, where you are in your life, and what time frame you need to get what done. People on these boards can throw in their two cents but cannot make the decison for you. In times like this, anything you can do to get around some folks is a big plus.

2. Kit Darby only makes any money when major airlines are hiring. Supply does not mean anything to him really. If the majors are hiring he will be doing fine.

3. My promotion and respect for professional pilots has nothing to do with the pay aspect of it. I do have a different perspective of major airline labor issues, not so much with the pilots themselves, but the way the labor situation has evolved. The major carrier pilots who are my close friends are much more concerned with their time off than their time on. Frankly, they have more interest in their investments and other jobs than their companies or any of their junior pilots. I have a bit of a problem with that.

4. I just do not see this massive damage to the profession as a result of PFT. The damage I see is the imbalance of power between the labor groups and company management. Equally important is the different wage structure that is really out of whack with the world.

5. Kit nor I make any of this happen or we have some power way beyond our knowledge. I am only saying that supply is not important in his success nor ours. To me there is a world of aviation out here that is not big airline oriented. One reason that I get so frustrated is in the talk like that is all there is. That some guy who is flying a Lear Jet for $70k a year is depressed and not enjoying a good career as he is not in the big buck airlines.

There is a good deal more to being a professional pilot than making the big bucks flying big iron. It is in the standard that you carry in life, the tolerance for others, the caring about doing more than what you are paid for. the mentoring of those behind you, taking that extra step even though you did not need to so you can be extra safe.

Of all the pilots who have worked for me or who I have known, most all could take the aircraft from point a to point b in a safe and efficient manner. However, if I was going to put my children on one of those aircraft, I wanted the guy that really cared that they arrived. The guy that bought a few extra pieces of gum for them. The guy that brought some class with him to the cockpit along with the time and expertise. Frankly, I do not care whether they PFT'd, went to this or that school, etc.

I just want a professional person.

 

[Timebuilder]

Great post, Pub!

Perhaps the only difference you and I have on this is what aspects of character and personal ethics are the hallmarks of that professional pilot you'd want to be flying your kids.

My position is that person is one who cares enough about aviation to have come up through the ranks, learned the craft, taught it to others, taken kids for rides, showed them the joy and awe of it, and not taken the shortest route between two points in the hopes of the Big Career at Huge Jet Airlines. I'm not convinced that PFT contains a large number of the folks I could look up to. Someone said that we can't fault a pilot for taking advantage of PFT when it is offered. Life is about choices, good and bad, and we are judged by our peers largely by the choices we have made. That's why it is important for youger guys considering PFT to consider this mark they will carry with them, and how others see this part of aviation. Knowlege is power.

The 70K will fit my needs quite nicely. Who knows, maybe I'll make more.