Pft Help!

[publisher]

Missed point of

First, I am not sure we are stioll on the subject. I did not understand that this fellow was looking for a school to instruct or looking at accelerated programs.

In addition, there are several web sites that have massive lists of schools. You said look for schools who use ???? did not get it. Probably just a semanic thing although I have not seen much on 350.

 

[Ty Webb]

I am a senior at the University of Illinois. I have been instructing while going through school for the past 7 months and now I have a decision coming up as I am about to graduate. What do I do know? [/i].

Hey, this sounds familiar. I was in the same boat in 1990. After finishing up at SIU, I passed down my beer-bong to my roomies, sent out a bazillion resumes, and headed south to FL, Jimmy Buffet tunes playing in my headset, and sure that a regional job awaited me. After all, I had 600tt and 50 multi, and the graduates from the year before had gotten on with various regionals, like Henson, Great Lakes, Mesaba, Midway Connection, and various others. Some had even hired on at Pan Am as F/E's!

Well, Braniff shut down, Eastern and Midway, and their associated feeders, and no one responded to the over 100 resumes I had sent out. My list of likely suspects was not getting much, other than a couple of words of encouragement here and there amidst the deafening silence and outright rejection- just enough to keep hope alive for a while . . . . The few ads in trade-a-plane, when they appeared, were pretty sad: "Cessna 210 pilot wanted, for 135 check operation. Must have 2500tt" or "Learjet Capt wanted, must have 5000tt, 2000 jet, 500 LR". Pretty sad. Things might be bad right now, but they aren't as bad as they were then, when, in addition to having few job openings, there were over 10,000 121 pilots who were competing with us newbies for the same crappy jobs.

The good news is, times will get better again, and until then, you should concentrate on building your time in a legitimate manner, improving your skills and marketability and contacts, so that as the requirements come back down and your skills go up, they will meet and you will be in a position to be hired.

In the meantime, be realistic. You have what- 350 hours? Buying 250 hours of time at Gulfstream would leave you with 600 hours- still not close to being comptetitive for a regional job right now, and you will still only have 350 hours of PIC time. This does not even include the stigma and debt.

Put your checkbook away- you'll need it later to live on sometime during this career, except you may have a family by then . . . just ask any of the Delta, American or UAl guys who are working at Home Depot right now, or the Comair guys who were on strike last year. If you really want to spend some money, consider getting your A&P or get some aerobatics training- anything to give you more knowlege and extra training or experience like that can make the difference- an edge based on experience, not buying a job.

Get a job flying anything you can right now that is legitimate. Network. Build your skills, move up to multi, then the rest will follow. Consider getting a part-time job at a busy FBO, I know a lot of sharp pilots who ended up in the right seat of a jet because they were bright, sharp, enthusiastic, and THERE.

Above all, don't give up. Also- go to http://raa.org and look in their membership directory. Check all of the operators that use equipment requiring F/O's. Pick 20 or 30 of the most likely ones, and make a nuisance of yourself on a regular basis. Fax, call and visit the CP every few weeks, and, quite likely, you'll be at the right place at the right time.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

 

[bobbysamd]

Early 1990s Hiring, or lack thereof

Oh, boy, does that sound familiar! I could have written Ty's post because I was there as well. I love the "the deafening silence and outright rejection." It was so true!! Don't forget, Pan Am failed shortly thereafter. I saw the same frustrating ads in Trade-A-Plane and Air Jobs Digest as well - and by that time I had upwards of 3000 total and circa 800 of multi AND my ATP!

Hiring is very much tied to the economy. The economy will get better because it always does. Furloughees will be recalled and, hopefully, all absorbed, and airlines will be looking for fresh talent. Just hang in and keep spamming your materials.

I like Ty's suggestion of getting an A & P as an excellent additional credential and/or aerobatics training, for some REAL value for your training dollar.

Best of luck to you.

 

[publisher]

OK

For the most part, these guys like Bobby and Timebuilder are the salt of aviation and speak from experience. On the other hand, a young (19 or 20) black lady flew me on a trip in TAB King Air a few months ago. She now flies for a regional.....

 

[bobbysamd]

Thanks, Pub.

 

[Timebuilder]

Sorry for the confusion. In a desire for some brevity, I wrote that he should "search for schools using Google and climbto 350..." when I might have written "search for schools by using Google and climbto350".

Just thought I'd give him a start on finding some instruction leads.

With respect, if we were all black females here, we'd be working for majors.

 

[publisher]

touche

touche!

By the way I always liked web ferret for searching.

The fact is that a number of regionals are still hiring and taking younger inexperienced pilots with a good attitude.

 

[airmack]

PFT article...

I found an interesting article that sheds some light on the question paying for training. Just a quick question to BOBBYSAMD and 350DRIVER. Since you guys seem to have all the answers in reference to getting hired, what airlines do you fly for? WWJD
http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/payartl.html:p

 

[bobbysamd]

I've been out of aviation for several years. During the years I was in aviation I put forth a great deal of effort trying to get hired, received plenty of advice, attended a seminar or two, and received coaching and sim training. I followed the experiences of my colleagues who did get hired and absorbed it all. I read everything I could about getting hired at airlines and elsewhere. I had five commuter interviews. I was not hired. I worked for Mesa briefly, at its school. I worked for ERAU, FSI, a smaller organization, and was with still another briefly. All were airline-oriented and/or had students with airline aspirations. I learned a great deal from my experiences.

During the time I was seeking airline employment P-F-T sprung up. Not only was I suspicious of a job being offered conditioned on me giving someone money, and big money at that, I considered it demeaning to have to pay for a job, which P-F-T really is.

PS-I read the article by our old friend Kit Darby's organization that Airmack mentioned. The factual background of P-F-T in the article is accurate. Kit acknowledges that P-F-T is controversial, but it would be too much to expect him to write about cons (downsides and other types of "cons") of P-F-T.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey, Mack:

Look at the source, and the date, before you waste everyone's time with that link.

First of all, it was put out by Air Inc.- 'nuff said.

Second, it was published in 1995. The only thing it has in common with today is that it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.


Third, if you had spent any time on the subject, or even read Bobby's info or any of his posts, you would already have your answer.

And last- it's interesting that you want to know who everyone else works for. Now, let's hear who you WORK for (or who do you rent your seat from)?

 

[bobbysamd]

Thanks, Ty.

 

[8sm]

From the exchanges of ideas and experiences on this board, you can't help but form a respect to certain poster leaving you with the feeling like you almost know them. Not really meeting the person or spending time with them you are left to form an good or bad opinion about them based on their written words. Then, race and gender questions are responded too. Some of us are left disappointed.

 

[enigma]

Re: PFT article...

I found an interesting article that sheds some light on the question paying for training.

Hey Airmack,
That Air, Inc article sheds no light on the subject, it only tells how PFT can be obtained and who AIR Inc. thinks is a candidate. It also omits the longterm damage the PFT inflicts on your wages and your profession. Here are few things to think about.

First, management uses PFT only when there is an oversupply of pilots, and the vast majority of PFT'rs used PFT to cut in line ahead of more qualified pilots. Meaning that as soon as the next oversupply hits (it's here now), PFT will once again rear it's ugly head. If you have the misfortune of losing your job flying that 1900 during this time, you will find that you can't find another one because there is a long line of uninformed PFT'rs who are willing to pay for your job.

Next, for PFT to help your career, (assuming that you don't care about the other issues, issues such as fairness, qualification, wage depression, etc) your timing must be absolutely perfect. You must PFT at a time when the hiring cycle has just started up and you're sure that it will stay up for the amount of time necessary for you to obtain enough experience to get a high paying job. If you are able to get one of the high paying positions and gain enough seniority to be furlough proof(assuming that you didn't go to work for the next PanAm,EAL, etc), then and only then will having PFT'd pay off. In other words, times must be good and stay good enough, long enough for you to climb over enough peoples backs to ensure that they can't repay you in the future. I know of only one time that this was possible. Some who PFT'd in the middle ninetys were able to spend a short time at a regional, then get on at a major in time to gain some seniority before slow times returned. Once again I say, that if they didn't care about the negative effects on the profession, it did work for them. It remains to be seen if the industry will recover from the economic slowdown and 9/11. If things remain slow, and more furloughs, chapter 11's, etc happen, you even those who thought that PFT had worked may find themselves looking for a job in a market in which someone who is less qualified gets the jobs just because he/she is willing to pay for them.

AIR Inc. presents PFT as if it is a legitimate option. That assumption had been made before the article was written. Please remember that those type of businesses make a profit by encouraging an oversupply. Because it is only in an oversupply when their services can be sold. Think about this, if this wasn't an employers market, they would come to you. IE, you wouldn't need AIR Inc to get you an address.

As for your comment to Bobbysam about his qualifications. He makes reasonable, well worded posts and has never offered himself as an expert. So lighten up a little.

8N

 

[publisher]

In defense

Boy I hate trying to defend Kit but you are way off base about this supply stuff being of any concern to him......

Secondly, it is an option and it is not Kit's job or mind to care much about the peception of great damage done to the profession by this type of situation.

Third, works better during the tought times than during the over supply times.

Fourth, I can see no evidence that PFT hurts your wages and that is probably who you care about.

Fifth, damage to the profession , nice philosophy if you do not want reality to interfere with how you think things should be.

Is this possibly distasteful to some, yes. Reason to legitimately not like it, yes. Destroying the profession. a lot of people seem to be working on that

 

[46Driver]

I'll side with Publisher. I do agree with most of what 8N says but draw a different conclusion. By that line of reasoning, nobody should apply at Southwest because they require a 737 type rating (or at least use to). Also, everybody should boycott all of the airlines that give preferential hiring to minorities and females with fewer hours and qualifications. Nobody should go to flight school unless they earn all of the money themselves and accept no help from your family. Obviously, this is not reality. The real world is not fair. Get used to it. PFT is not desirable but it is preferable to the alternative of not being hired and delaying your career while others are passing you by. This is still America where initiative is rewarded - at least until the Democrats return to power.......

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Kit, again

Thanks, Enigma. My opinions are basically that, opinions, though I feel they are well grounded in the empirical knowledge I've gained, as I described above. Others have had different experiences and will have different opinions.

Apart from the oversupply point that Enigma makes, one of the big things that rankles me about P-F-T is the cutting-in-front-of-the-line aspect. That's a fairness issue in every way. Once again, how would you feel if you worked hard at something for years and at great personal sacrifice to get your chance, and see someone who is less qualified and/or could write a check get the same chance? Wouldn't you feel at least a little resentment toward that person and harbor resentment for others like him/her? Most people would.

I experienced the same thing in my career before aviation. Apologies to those who've read this already, but I mention it again in the interests of clarity. I worked hard in my radio career to advance to a certain point, and at great personal sacrifice. I had goals. I built up enough background to where I was attractive to bigger radio stations. I got the job and with decent hours, and am put on a bad shift, which I did despite my chagrin to be a good guy and also to keep working. I was promised that I would have better hours. Then, the company hires someone who was okay but with less experience and puts this person on the shift I was promised. I consider P-F-T to be fully analagous to this experience.

Pub makes a point that P-F-T is an option (albeit a bad option - once again, just my opinion). However, Kit demonstrated irresponsibility by not presenting the downside of P-F-T. Yeah, he pointed out how so many pilots lost money in the Family Airlines debacle and tried to compare that to P-F-T. I realize that Kit is not the New York Times and is a pilot/promoter and not a journalist. In the same breath, we should all realize that Kit runs a business and is promoting an agenda intended to support his business, and what he says is bound to be one-sided.

We want to know the truth; perhaps Kit can't or won't handle the truth.

Finally, not to fan the flames on this debate, but I dunno if you can really regard the 737 type requirement for Southwest as true P-F-T. P-F-T is generally defined as training for which YOU pay to a company that is specific to that company - meaning it's probably useless elsewhere. Your 737 type is yours and will be recognized as such by anyone. Once again, just my opinion.

 

[46bubba]

While PFT may blow, it is an indictment of the companies and not the folks who take advantage of it. Never begrudge a man for taking advantage of a good deal (relatively speaking). As far as the "damage" it does to the industry and the pilots group as a whole, that's crap. The people who choose to take this route are trying to get a career going and if this is what it takes, then so be it. So much of this post smacks of snobbery and the proverbial "paying your dues" rhetoric that it it is comical. As someone posted, PFT rears its ugly head when the supply is high and the demand is low. However, that's reality and if you want to take some b.s. high road as if you are better than PFT, then do it quietly.
To whomever started this post, if you have the jack and stamina to go the PFT route, then do it because the only thing that is going to get you into a major (presumably everyone's goal here) is turbine PIC and you need to figure out how you are going to do it. As some drunk Irishman more or less once said, "Don't let the bastards get you down".
Last item, as far as 20 year old black females getting "there" before the rest of us, so what. Suck it up and do what you need to do. When you are the H.M.F.I.C., change it.

 

[enigma]

Re: In defense

Publisher, I don't know why you defend those guys either.
You said, "Boy I hate trying to defend Kit but you are way off base about this supply stuff being of any concern to him...... "\

What type of reasoning allows you to say this? He is in business, and needs clients. The more people that are looking for a job the better for his business.

Next you say, "Secondly, it is an option and it is not Kit's job or mind to care much about the peception of great damage done to the profession by this type of situation. "

That obvious distast for the profession sort of flies in the face of your previous statements that you cared for the profession and wanted to bring in the best and the brightest.

Then you say, "Third, works better during the tought times than during the over supply times. "

The tough times ARE the oversupply times.

Next you say."Fourth, I can see no evidence that PFT hurts your wages and that is probably who you care about. "

PFT hurt my wages by filling the profession up with people were willing to work for nothing. I was at MESA before PFT, and I am a personal witness to having management stand up and say such things as: "men, every pilot in this stack of resumes is willing to work for less than you are making now. there will be no raises." When the level of resumes from people who were willing to pay for a job reached a great enough level, MESA instituted a PFT program. This is really simple economics, no manager is going to pay more for a product than he has to, and labor doesn't get much cheaper than when it pays you for a job.

Then you make a fifth point, "Fifth, damage to the profession , nice philosophy if you do not want reality to interfere with how you think things should be. "

OK, your good with a quip, so what is reality?

Then you finish with this. "Is this possibly distasteful to some, yes. Reason to legitimately not like it, yes. Destroying the profession. a lot of people seem to be working on that."

What does that mean? Are we all supposed to sit idly by while others destroy a profession? Is that what you are saying?
Why does someone who makes his living helping pilots succeed in a profession seem to have such a distaste for pilots, especially airline pilots? Just what is your idea of upholding the profession?

One last point. Reality is this. People are selfish and PFT is a way to buy what you want and get it now. I can deal with that, because that is reality. But PFT only gets them what they want if there remain enough high paying jobs when they get to the high level. Considering the current climate in the industry, there are going to be a lot of disappointed PFT'rs when they arrive at a "major" only to find that the glory days are over. If you can prove to me that wages will stay high over the long term even in an unregulated, oversupplied market, I will stop arguing. In the mean time, if I have the time, I will continue to attempt to convince others that working for less is not a good longterm strategy.
later

 

[enigma]

..... because the only thing that is going to get you into a major (presumably everyone's goal here) is turbine PIC and you need to figure out how you are going to do it. .............

46bubba,

Your reasoning presumes that a major airline job will be worth having. I agree with your basic philosophy, If you'll allow me to paraphrase, that one does whatever is necessary to get to the top. If PFT is what it takes to get to the top, then so be it.

My concern is that so many took the PFT route in hopes of it leading to a seat in the left side of a UAL747 (and earning the money that goes with it); but with the way the industry is going, there either won't be any UAL747s, or they will not be paying nearly what they used to for 747 Captains. Management will not long pay more for a product than their competition pays for the same product. Why should DAL pay one 737 Captain $150 per hour when they can pay two RJ Captains a combined $100 per hour? Or, how long can DAL pay a 737 Captain $150 per hour when AirTran flys the same route with a 737 Captain who makes $95 per hour? Whether we like it or not, overall/industrywide wages are coming down. The overall economy demands that travel become cheaper, and cheap laborers demand that the rest of us accept less in order to maintain our jobs.
regards

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa gReed and P-F-T

Enigma is right. One thing at which Mesa excelled was making money, through greed and taking advantage of poor souls who wanted to be airline pilots.

At the outset, I'll say that I worked at MAPD. I know the program. It is not fair to label the school as P-F-T because the Commercial certificates that people earned were good anywhere. Perhaps those who didn't get "the interview" faced tough interviewing elsewhere when asked how come Mesa didn't interview or hire them, as advertised. Except for one individual, I had students who earned and deserved an intervew. Yes, Mesa made money off these folks' flight training and probably saved on training costs because these folks had learned Mesa's procedures during their MAPD training, just as Kit states in his article. But, it was not P-F-T.

What Mesa established was more insidious than P-F-T, if such a thing is possible. It set up an ATP rating course. You paid your money, came to Farmington, trained with an MAPD instructor in a Baron, and took the ATP practical with a Mesa check airman who was also a DE. Pass on the first try and, guess what? You got your ATP ticket AND an interview with Mesa! Pay-for-interview. Fail and be rechecked and you got your ATP, but no interview. There were people who passed and people who failed. I didn't keep track of the percentages. Who knows if these folks could have been given an interview just by sending in an app? Who knows? But, they paid for their's.

I believe that at the same time Mesa established some kind of bridge program for low-timers, similar to what Comair set up during the same time period. It was the predecessor of the PACE program.

Airline pilots have historically battled those who will work for less. Read the chapter about E.L. Cord in Flying the Line. P-F-T is another hurdle to be overcome. Maybe P-F-T is something ALPA should take up.