Pft Help!

[AAflyer]

It can be done

I landed AA in my twenties. I didn'y PFT it. There are 101 ways to get to where you want to be.

I t would be hard to sit here having reached my goal, and say don't you dare buy your job, while some other shmoo walks up does it and is sitting left seat in a turbo-prop in 2 years while you are still teaching. To not judge others is the hardest thing we humans will struggle with in our lives.

In the end,when you through on your pilot shirt and staighten your tie you will have to look at yourself in the mirror, I guess it is what you can live with.

Whatever you decide to do, you probably got into aviation like the majority of us (you love it). Keep the politics out of the cockpit, keep your chin up and enjoy the rewards of one the finest jobs known to man.

Good Luck,
AAflyer

 

[46bubba]

Timebuilder,

I will do my best to refrain from flaming on you here. You see I was once in my twenties as well. And like you, I too have a military education, only mine was spent on active duty deploying overseas flying 30 year old equipment. But alas, my experience is not pigeonholed into one distinct and particular realm. In fact the extent of the responsibilities that I have been charged with have extended well beyond the cockpit, in and out of the Navy. I prefer to call that perspective. Try it sometime, it can be enlightening. The "me-me what's in it for me" assertion you make is absurd and shows that basically you don't get it. Yes indeed aviation is a family, but so were the Mansons. To get down on some bootcamp just out of college because he may or may not pursue PFT is wrong. It sounds more like some are concerned that others will get ahead without having to do some of the same crap as they did.
I see the brotherhood/family in full force everyday as I peruse these boards and listen to the employed give the unemployed all the advice they can handle in the name of "solidarity" and other rhetorical horsesh**. I have several amigos that did the PFT route at ASA a few years ago. If I had the cash, I may have pursued it myself. Anyway, those are good people whose background did not carry the requisite C-172/152 or whatever time, so they took the route that was available. They had no impact on the industry other than to supply it with high quality, seasoned pilots.
Don't make more out of PFT than what it is, a business oppurtunity exercised for the good of a company because "brother", we are the company and what matters is "what have you done lately", not were you a CFI or did you suffer the correct amount in the shi**y jobs portion of your career. Quite frankly, beyond some friendly conversation over suds, who friggin' cares what you, me or anyone else has done. What matters is, can you get the job done today? Will I be taxed to the max with this guy or gal in the right seat? Will I be up to the challenge of making an airline pilot out of Joe Bag-o-donuts? When PFT starts to produce dangerous co-pilots, then there will be a problem.
You know, you **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near had a point, but you lost it with your obvious concern over someone else's bidness.

I ain't gittin off no soapbox.

 

[Timebuilder]

bubba-
People ask questions here regarding the relative value of the possible career tracks they might take, and PFT always enjoys some lively discussions.

If you come out of the service as an aviator, then you have no need for PFT, so I am a little befuddled by what you are saying. A naval aviator has tons of turbine time, right? You have your records showing quals, traps, aircraft, etc. So, why was this a problem for you and your friends? I'd expect you to have networked your way to a job at Delta, assuming that was before last year.

My post has nothing to do with how many cr**py jobs you've had. It has to do with outfits who take a kid with big dreams and fill his head with a bunch of baloney that the PFT route will fail to have a negative impact on aviation, and his individual careeer in particular. When people take the PFT route, it keeps that plan alive, like a parasite with a willing host. Why should operators offer a job to a kid for $18,000 instead of hiring pilots to man their planes? My boss pays the bill for training all of his pilots, and pays them to boot.

Shure, talented people can be exceptions and get an airline job with the turbine time afforded by PFT. With my family's money, I could have done it in a heartbeat. I was counseled against it. If you read the thread I recommended, you will gather some valuable insights into the full breadth of the PFT discussion. Just because somone has done this and gone on to be a success at an airline doesn't factor in the question of the value of the method, or the fact that it enables this kind of operation's continued existence.

When someone takes a path for mere expediency which is detrimental to the aviation business as we know it, and to their own reputations, it needs to be pointed out. I think it's more than fair to identify that behavior as being self-centered. That's what mentoring is. Helping to foster that Big Picture, the idea that what you do goes beyond yourself.

You disagree. I don't really understand the level of hostility I'm reading.

I could give a hoot if someone doesn't have to do what I did. The point is that the traditional path most often turns out a superior brand of pilot, and that is substantiated by pilots who were flying before you and I were born. Further, Each pilot who works hard, and not necessarily at a "cr**py" job, helps to provide mentoring and support to an entire group of less-expereienced avaitors who have yet to attain his level of experience. Giving back something to our community is an important part of life.

The Mansons were only called a family, and in reality they were just a group of evil people. What does that have to do with the kind of brotherhood shared by pilots? You say your friends took the PFT route because it was available. What was their hurry? Was a service background a factor that made teaching, flying freight, sharing the joy of flying just too unintersting for these men? I think not. More likely, it's a shame that they never took the opportunity to share experiences that would be of value to people who are just getting started.

My "bidness" is aviation, among others. The concern here is not that PFT produces "dangerous" copilots. The concern is that it produces predators on the hiring side, and exploited shortcut takers instead of aviators on the pilot side. I know some aviators. We could all do worse than to aspire to become like them. You could, too.

That's another perspective. Try it.

 

[Checks]

"Fourth, I can see no evidence that PFT hurts your wages and that is probably who you care about."

I think you right so I am going to find out where you work and offer to do it for free. If your a CFI I am going to put up a flyer in your FBO saying I will pay students 10bucks an hour to teach them.

I think you Pro-PFT guys are right. Lets pay for EVERY job. Instead of an interview companies will do credit checks.

I am trying to get ahead....dont fault me.

 

[Ty Webb]

Timebuilder and Checks:

Between the two of you, you guys said it.

Also, if you saw Enigma (8N's) post, he also added another factor to the discussion- and that is that PFT doesn't even get you ahead unless you hit the market just right- or unless you are making that PFT job your last. Once you start over at another airline, that money was largely wasted.

THe funniest part to me about Gulfstream is that once those guys are out on the street, if they are [luckythey will just go to another regional, and start over at the bottom again, still have no real PIC time, and are $18,800. poorer.

 

[46bubba]

Timebuilder,

My hostility was relative to your level of condescension on your first reply.

Me and my buds were all straight helo pukes so the regionals were the prescribed route. Again these are all guys with plenty of hours spent forward deployed in some good and some bad places (read:every single place the U.S. was been involved in during the 90's). They were all military instructors and what they lacked in fixed wing time they had to compensate for with PFT. To require those guys to go share the friggin joy with some young kid for the sake of some meaningless twin time in a PA44 is absurd (read:chickensh**). If I explained myself adequately, I would dare say you would agree. So they went the evil route of PFT.

As for being in a hurry, if you don't feel a sense of urgency in this business, if you don't realize that there is no time like the now, I have no reply because I haven't reached my zen on that one yet. I will say this however. Of all the furloughs that have gone on these past months, the one thing each company had in common were these 2 guys. The last guy to get furloughed and the lucky bastard ahead of him. What saved that son of a gun? His stick skills? Luck. For some it was dumb luck, but rest assured, some of that was the luck of those who hustled and applied urgency to their pursuit of an airline. Of course the vast majority, prepared hustlers and non-hustlers alike just got the rectal jammius.

You are absolutely correct when you describe the companies as predators. PFT is crap indeed, but only from the standpoint that the companies are to blame. I refuse to hold issue with some poor bastard if he does this. As far as it hurting his career, well that wouldn't be the case if people attacked the process and not those who do it. You say PFT is bad for the career and PFT will hurt him, but what you are really saying is that you don't respect his decision and you would hold that decision against him. I may be guilty there of reading between the lines, but you'd have to convince me otherwise. Passion and love for aviation is great and that's why many have pursued this, but it is not some pre-req. I find a lot of this tedious and myopic.

Late.

 

[bobbysamd]

Ripoff

Further to Ty's, Timebuilder's and Enigma's posts, consider the potential fraud aspects of P-F-T. Notwithstanding the honor, accomplishment, morals, ethics, cutting-ahead-in-line aspects and other basic unfairness aspects, another thing that always hit me as untoward about P-F-T was how it sounded like a con game. How do I know that once I fork over my $20K check that it won't be cashed and I will be left with nothing? That was always a top suspicion of mine. My parents didn't raise me to be stupid.

I've explained P-F-T to my wife. She was wondering if there are any other industries besides aviation in which new-hires have to pay for their training. I haven't heard of any. Has anyone here heard of any? I'll bet the first round of Cokes there aren't any except for aviation. Gives one pause, doesn't it?

 

[46Driver]

Timebuilder, Many of us were Marine and Navy helicopter pilots which meant most of the airlines would not count our helo time. Having 2500+ hours of turbine plus airplane and helo ratings and still being turned away in favor of kids with less than 1000 hours in a Cessna was a slap in the face - especially after having instructed instruments (an ILS is an ILS, a VOR is a VOR, etc). Of course my friends took PFT and I think no less of them - that was the route they had to go to make things happen and so be it. Financially, it sucks but I see nothing morally wrong with it.
The other is the nature of naval flight training - it is ruthless in its competition and Darwinistic in selection. Students are graded on a bell curve and like musical chairs, some are going to fail. That means you skip Christmas to study all day, you sleep outside the simulator building to get one of the precious few practice slots, you buy flight time on your weekends (PFT?) - whatever you have to do to survive, you do. That take no prisoners attitude is the norm. And I am not saying one is superior to the other - I have flown in the regionals long enough to know that - but it does produce a different attitude.
As for the companies requiring PFT, supply and demand usually dictates what is available. The other point is, how much money do you need? If you live in a Manhattan apartment and drive a Ferrari you are going to need more than if you live on a farm and want nothing more than a bassboat. In other words, what is considered plenty for one might be considered insufficient for another.

 

[Timebuilder]

Bubba-
If I seemed condescending in my earlier post, it is a fault of mine that I have difficulty suppressing my annoyance at the number of adults who can excuse the practice of PFT. I find it amazing, and distressing.

Also, I am amazed at the number of helo pilots who show no desire to fly helicopters professionally. There is corporate, med evac, TV, etc. Why didn't you want to follow that course?

Lastly, the best way to attack the process, as you accurately put it, is to spread the word, and warn that there are those who WILL attack the individual. I didn't want to be one of those individuals, and I didn't let myself become convinced that there is some teriffic urgency to get a seniority number. Perhaps aviation is just a job to you. It's more than that to most of us, from what I have seen over the past 40 years. I know it's more than that for me.

PFT to secure a place at an airline? I don't think the end justifies the means. It's the journey that makes for a satisfying life. My hope for you is that you come to that conclusion yourself, sooner rather than later.

46driver-

I know many of you guys have trouble with helo time, but won't your service buds at Delta, etc help you by carrying resumes with just 50 or 100 hours of Seneca or Baron time? It seems to me that you could instruct, and build time in multiengine aircraft without feeding the PFT dragon, and pay less money in the process. There must be some Marine aviators at the airlines who still remember the meaning of "Semper Fi".

At least I hope there are.

 

[enigma]

I didn't even finish your post

46bubba, I couldn't even finish reading your last posts because I couldn't wait to say a few things.

1. Sorry that you couldn't get fixed wing in the service.

2. The last time I checked, 99% of all airlines flew fixed wing.

3. You're comments towards civilian kids flying PA44's gives you away as an arrogant person who really does believe that he is somehow better than another. It's men like you that make other military guys look bad.

4. A decision to PFT/work for nothing/buy time with Gulfstream does drag the average wage of the industry down. I guess that they don't teach much about market forces in rotorwing school.

5. PFT and a get ahead at all cost philosophy, only works if there is something ahead to get to. When the market becomes full of pilots who do not value their services, the airlines will find a way to use those pilots. Then a PFT'r will have paid $18K to get into an industry that tops out at $75K, when he though he had found a way to shortcut the way to a $250K job. I find it ironic that a PFT'rs own actions are largely responsible for insuring that he will never reach the big wages.

6. I do not attack PFT'rs, that would be somewhat like closing the gate after the cows got out. I do spend time trying to convince potential PFT'rs no to do it. In that respect. I ain't gettin off my soapbox either.

7. One thing for you to consider. Look at two of the biggest PFT airlines. Comair and ASA. Do you think that management at those carriers has any respect for their pilots? Do you want to work for ASA/Comair money for your whole career? (I'm not assuming that you work for either of those carriers, just using them for the example). I submit to you that those type companies are growing while mainline is shrinking. Those companies will never pay mainline wages. My next submission is that for most, PFT didn't get them to a major, it only allowed the PFT company to gain a foothold based upon lower costs. Their PFT'ing insured that Comair/ASA grew, it didn't necessarily insure that the PFT'r ever made it to a major.

8. You mentioned that we should not attack the person, we should attack the process. I agree it's useless to attack after the fact, so I attempt to convince before the fact. But, your dead wrong about attacking the process. You see, the PFT'rs are the process. I saw first hand the lightbulbs going off in managements head when they realized that there really were people offering to buy a job. If you think that PFT is something that management pushes off on pilots, your wrong. PFT is something that management takes advantage of. Just as most won't buy the cow when they can get the milk for free, management won't pay as long as it can get pilots for free. H E double L, I won't pay for something I can get for free either.

Later

Oh, one more thing. During the time that PFT was dead. How did helo pilots get fixed wing time?

 

[46Driver]

Well, I just landed and I'll quickly answer a few questions.

1) When you go Marine, you know odds are you are going to fly rotary wing.

2) When you return to Pensacola to instruct, the needs of the Training Command dictate whether or not you go to North Field (T-34C's) or South Field (TH-57's)

3) When some of the regionals dropped their mins to 200 fixed wing total and 100 multi-engine total, it became cost-effective to buy a block of Seminole time.

4) No disrespect to the kids was intended, but when you have triple the flight time - nearly all of it in complex, turbine aircraft - and a majority of the companies won't even take your resume because "you don't know how to fly instruments" or "you haven't proven yourself", you do consider any alternative to level the playing field.

5) It usually takes multi-engine turbine time to make it to the majors - hence flying a multi-piston won't do it. Connections can help, but it does take thousands of those fixed-wing turbine hours.

6) I don't see any of the majors requiring PFT (other than possibly a type rating) - there are far more applicants than jobs, and Delta, United, Northwest all had salary raises within the last few years. PFT is a regional airline problem.

7) I don't know how many high paying jobs (and how you define high paying is different to everyone) will be around - but that is due to supply and demand: both of the pilots to the number of jobs and of the number of airlines to passengers. PFT in the regionals has nothing to do with salaries in the majors.

8) Helo jobs are low paying and have few benefits. It is more fun but I wouldn't want to make a career of it.

9) Enigma, it does sound like you have a case of "I got mine" -take the moral high ground is your catchphrase for saying "I am going to get the big iron job first and everybody fall in behind me and my rules." Uhhhh, No. If you can't stand the competition, don't walk out to the cockpit. Finally, that comment about slave labor is ludicrous - try living on a ship in the same small room with 4 other guys for 6 months on end all working 12 on , 12 off. (and that's still immeasurably better than what my enlisted troops put up with.) Makes going back to your air-conditioned hotel for a stand-up not that bad, now doesn't it.

 

[Ty Webb]

To the two milspec whirlybird types

THis is for the two helicopter guys in this string:

1) Don't know how long you've been out of the service, but apparently not long enough to have developed a real frame of reference. If you continue to compare civilian world experiences to living in a mud hut nursing a gunshot wound, you're bound to run into trouble.

2) Military helicopter time is good, but is comparable to flying a Beech 99. Unpressurized, 160 KTS, below 10,000. Copy?

3) I wonder why my buds who were former milspec helicopter guys like yourself managed to get on with their various regionals without PFT? Here's a hint- because they didn't alienate their civilian counterparts with their "me, me, me!" attitude like you two clowns. That is why I got them jobs flying SIC in a bizjet or walked their resumes in at my airline.

4) You guys are doing a real disservice to other military guys- I am sure that most long-time airline guys who were former milspec helo guys are cringing when they read your posts.

 

[Checks]

46Bubba and others,

Would PHI hire a fixed wing pilot with 2000hrs of 737 time and only 100hours in R-22's? I think not. Why should the airlines hire you with 2000hours helo time? As an ex attack helo guy myself I know flying a 20,ooolb, twin turbine, complex helicopter takes a lot of skill but it isnt exactly the same as MEFW. In addition, most of the time helo guys have is flying VFR in uncontrolled airspace. I believe helo time is valuable but not all by itself. When you guys buy that experience your selling everyones careers short. Just remember that.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot recruiters

I understand the helo drivers' points about convincing an airline that they have potential and experience. Read some of my other posts about how I battled age stereotypes and struck out. The problem is with the coneheads in H.R. They don't evaluate a resume for intangible qualities that an applicant can offer. They have a particular profile in mind for the ideal candidate and do it only by the numbers.

For example, they see a low to mid-time flight instructor and their profile dictates that such a person must be under 30. I was low to mid-time and close to 40. Into the round file goes my resume. They fail to consider the stability, life experience and maturity that I am offering. They think, "he's too old, good-bye." They see a military helicopter pilot. They ask, "where's his/her airplane time? Only 200 hours? "Good-bye." They don't consider the person's turbine experience, which they more than meet, background operating very complex and expensive machinery, and flying skills. They are not looking at the whole person. That is unfair.

Maybe helo drivers need to show recent airplane time, but it's no reason to P-F-T. Buying and flying off a bunch of Seminole time is not P-F-T'ing. I know there are regionals who like and hire ex-military helo drivers and give them the same consideration as higher-time airplane drivers. Mesa used to like them. I've heard Comair likes them, too.

Best of luck with your decision and efforts.

 

[46bubba]

Checks,

You are right on as far your 737/R22 comparison, however, straight helo types aren't in position to apply to companies flying 737's and it's a far different jump going fixed wing to helo than the other way around. Rotary wing is different enough that it reflects significantly in time miniumums and insurance requirements on most employers. What the ex-mil types bring in perspective, experience and headwork more than offsets their lack of ME fixed wing time. As it relates to PFT, I see it as a bargain for regionals to be bringing that type of experience into their cockpits. After a while, ME means system management, fixed or rotary.

To Whomever wrote about the helo jobs, they are out there, but the pay, benefits and lifestyle are not nearly as desirable as a potential career at a major or even a mid major or larger regional. I don't live to fly. I don't live to do any kind of work. I work to live and I do it professionally regardless, so if I am not having nocturnal emissions over "slipping the surly bonds", please don't hold it against me.

Ty Webb,

Bravo for using your name, but who gives a flying fart about a Beech 99, unpressurized , 160 knots, onehand tied behind your back, blindfolded below 10K. After a while, flight hours and comparisons become somewhat irrelevant as you find that there is always someone out there who can one up you. As far as "me, me, me" goes, you're 180 out. It's exactly the opposite. Again, I must re-iterate from an early reply that I have not gone the PFT route, but I am not going to begrudge the guy who does. I am not going to get down on some who try and better their lot because I am not freaked out about it's impact on, as YOU put it, "me, me, me".

Lastly, this is a problem at the regional level. No denying that or we wouldn't be having this slugfest. But, for some, myself included, my goals extend beyond the regionals. I am not going to sell anyone short, badmouth my sh***y captain or whatever, so you can all drop the "ends justifying the means-get-there-at-any-cost" lines. Well, maybe the "get there at any cost" addage has some truth to it in that, yup, I will make just about any personal sacrifice short of disrupting my family to achieve an end. My experience in the regionals has been short and full of furlough, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the have's reaction to the have nots is long on concern for their jobs and careers and short on that of the groveling masses. Amazing what a little pressure will reveal when it comes to character. Everyone is cool and everyone is your bud until things start breaking down.

I don't know that we are all as far apart on this as it may appear.