Pft Help!

[enigma]

My previous post was for 46bubba

I'm sorry. I made a mistake and originally addressed that sarcasm at you. Now on to your current post.

Well, I just landed and I'll quickly answer a few questions.

6) I don't see any of the majors requiring PFT (other than possibly a type rating) - there are far more applicants than jobs, and Delta, United, Northwest all had salary raises within the last few years. PFT is a regional airline problem.

7) I don't know how many high paying jobs (and how you define high paying is different to everyone) will be around - but that is due to supply and demand: both of the pilots to the number of jobs and of the number of airlines to passengers. PFT in the regionals has nothing to do with salaries in the majors.

9) Enigma, it does sound like you have a case of "I got mine" -take the moral high ground is your catchphrase for saying "I am going to get the big iron job first and everybody fall in behind me and my rules." Uhhhh, No. If you can't stand the competition, don't walk out to the cockpit. Finally, that comment about slave labor is ludicrous - try living on a ship in the same small room with 4 other guys for 6 months on end all working 12 on , 12 off. (and that's still immeasurably better than what my enlisted troops put up with.) Makes going back to your air-conditioned hotel for a stand-up not that bad, now doesn't it.

re:6. PFT in most certainly not just a regional problem. Tell that to the furloughed DAL, pilot who is sitting home reading this while those PFT'rs at Comair are continuing to fly Delta routes. Getting a raise doesn't do any good if you get furloughed. Once again, you are one of many who doesn't seem to realize that the lower ranks don't exist in a vacuum. I have repeatedly made the point that management will find a way to access the pool of labor who will work for less (PFT'rs exemplify this group, not only will they work for less, they'll pay for the privelege), and I think the current situation at DAL and AAA proves my point. Scope clauses themselves also prove my point. If you don't see that the actions of regional pilots affect the majors, then your missing something. I wish what I could identify the disconnect, because I'm here to convince not to belittle.

re: 7. PFT artificially skewed the supply numbers. It allows those who couldn't otherwise qualify for a job to enter a job market that was already oversupplied. As for the rest of your point 7, see my reply to number six.

re:9. I don't have mine and I'm fighting to uphold the profession so that there will sometime be something left in the future for me to get. I'm not the one who takes the moral high ground. I attempt to use logic, reason, and obvious facts to prove that PFT drags us all down.

re: 9. I can stand the competition, matter of fact I got where I am by competing. Period. I competed for my jobs and won them. I NEVER BYPASSED THE COMPETITION AND BOUGHT MY WAY IN. I got my first jet job, by beating the other interviewees. I got my first jet airline job by beating the other interviewees. Sorry, but your example just proves MY point.

re: 9. "Slave labor" may be an exageration, but your version of tough conditions is just as ludicrous. If I remember, the military dropped the draft in the 70's. You VOLUNTEERED. You made a choice to follow that path and it shouldn't be up to everyone else in the industry to provide restitution now.

re:9. We don't do stand ups. Another point for me. My fellow pilots came into the company because the company needed good pilots. We don't get treated like royalty, but management does have some respect for us. I think that is partly because, none of of prostitued ourselves out to get the job. Or maybe it's just because they don't want to handle the lawsuit losses if I crash and kill 170 people. It's sort of funny how everyone, (FAA, management, insurance, etc.) puts less value on the lives in a commuter/regional airliner than they do one which carries mainline sized loads.

Later.

 

[enigma]

Then why pft?

You wrote, "What the ex-mil types bring in perspective, experience and headwork more than offsets their lack of ME fixed wing time. As it relates to PFT, I see it as a bargain for regionals to be bringing that type of experience into their cockpits."

If that is so, then why doesn't regional management hire you guys (assuming PFT is effect), without asking for money. PFT is only a way for airlines to defer costs save money. If it had anything to do with qualifications it wouldn't exist. Your defense of PFT just doesn't follow logic and your "bargain for regionals" shows that.

You wrote, "To Whomever wrote about the helo jobs, they are out there, but the pay, benefits and lifestyle are not nearly as desirable as a potential career at a major or even a mid major or larger regional."

I have to ask. If that is so, then why did you start out in helos?

You wrote, "Lastly, this is a problem at the regional level. No denying that or we wouldn't be having this slugfest. But, for some, myself included, my goals extend beyond the regionals ..."

I really encourage you to take the time to actually look at what is happening in the industry. If your goals extend beyond the regionals, you need to see beyond the regionals. I've said this before, I haven't made it to the big money yet either, I also have goals that extend beyond the mid levels and I'm willing to fight to preserve the jobs to which I aspire.

Management will find a way to access low cost labor. I only hope that when you and I reach to top that we don't get undercut by low cost labor. Since PFT is the lowest cost of labor, I would like to drive a stake in it's heart. Nothing personal.

regards

 

[8sm]

Wow, this PFT debate really stirs up the pot. I see both side of the issue, however I chose the CFI route because I want to instruct. I feel it's important to "me" to build the confidence and skills the I need to confidently present myself to the employer. Right now, I'm not ready for any airline ground school with the limited hours and experience I have.
I do not have an opinion one way or another how someone gets to the interview. If their skills and experience have preparded them to proceed. The employer may hire them.

I have asked a few airline pilots, serveral in my neighborhood, what they thought of PFT. Not one of them cared, they just wanted someone they could get along with in the cockpit and on layovers.

Of those in this debate, I'm interested in hearing how many " PFT'er" you have confronted face to face or would you?
If you have was it in your own cockpit, in the bar, in the crew lounge. What did you say, to them.
Secondly, if you found out your Capt. had PFT would you say anything.

I'm curious how many of you were/are willing to take it to the streets.

Best regards...8sm

 

[publisher]

stir

Quite a stir and debate when you consider that Gulfsteam has the only real pft program discussed.

You would think from this that everybody is out doing it. Not happeneing!

Of the total number of pilots and jobs, the numbers going through this progrram are totally insignificant. Why then such a rabid group of posters on this.

To my good friends Bobby and Timebuilder, there are a ton of people who pay for training, one way or the other. Doctors, lawyers, and other professionals who take forever to get through school and that is followed by apprenticeships that are every bit pft as what we are talking about.

 

[enigma]

Re: stir

.....
Of the total number of pilots and jobs, the numbers going through this progrram are totally insignificant. Why then such a rabid group of posters on this. ......

.....Doctors, lawyers, and other professionals who take forever to get through school and that is followed by apprenticeships that are every bit pft as what we are talking about.

I for one, hope to ensure that PFT stays numerically insignificant. I only continue to argue against it because some continue to ask about it, and others want to defend it.

How many fully qualified doctors sit unemployed in a doctor oversupply, while any job openings go to unqualified doctors who happen to be able to buy a job?

How many lawyers have to buy their way into a job?

Are there Federal laws that require a Doctor, or lawyer, to go through his boards/bar exams each time he changes jobs. Do hospitals take in unqualified physicians just because they offer to pay for the cost of their internships?

Do Doctors have to redo their "apprenticeship" each time they change clinics? Do they have to pay to redo that "appreniceship"?

You're mixing apples and oranges and you know it. PFT is buying a job. Paying for ones training and working at entry level jobs in order to gain experience can be related to apprenticeships, but they are in no way comparable to BUYING a job.


Here's a question for you. You occasionally take a management position in certain debates, so what would you say would be a airline managers reason for instituting a PFT program? Especially why would a manager pass over the qualified candidate in order to hire a less qualified candidate?

later

 

[bobbysamd]

Doctor and Lawyer P-F-T

Not exactly, Pub. I worked in a law office in which newly-minted attorneys were hired routinely, so I speak from first-hand knowledge. No money changed hands between them and the lawfirm. They were paid full salary and they learned on the job, through mentoring by the experienced lawyers and paralegals.

Money doesn't change hands between new doctor and hospital, either. These people work plenty hard and are not paid much compared to their earning potential after they complete their training. But they do receive a salary. Their training is a cost of the hospital doing business.

Now, if you want to set up a new classification of Paying Through the Nose, doctors, lawyers and nearly all of us would fall thereunder.

We have to define P-F-T. I understand P-F-T as being offered a job, but having to pay for your training for the job to the company from which you've been offered the job. It's not the same as going to college and paying for tuition and books, or going, say, to FSI for flight training. That is education or training not being sponsered by, intended for or promoted by a specific business. What you learn at either you can take anywhere.

I actually would not put Comair or MAPD under strict P-F-T because the certificates and ratings you earn in either place can be marketed anywhere. Of course, they really do put the carrot on the stick, but anyone who walks in either place believing they've just purchased a job better think again and/or has been sold a bill of goods.

 

[publisher]

Of apples and oranges

No question, it is a bit like apples and oranges but more there is more of it than you think.

The fact is that in regular businesses, you often have people who bring in people and train them, and, then others who only hire people that already have experience and qualifications.

One slight difference in thought, is this really buying a job. It is not a long term purchase of employment but rather a short term training agreement.

Your argument that it replaces someone who may in fact be paid for the job is true and I can see some logic as to why you and others oppose that.

Where we split is that I do not think the caliber of individual is appreciably different in this situation than if we were hiring entry level F/o's off the street at minimum pay.

As to the why would they institute these plans. In the case of Gulfstream, they started as a small 402 operation with no affiliation down here in Florida flying islands and Keys. They were underfinanced, did not really need a F/o at all, saw an opportunity to generate some income which they really needed to survive, so they offered up this program which stuck as they grew.

You should remember that generally speaking, the profit margin in any of these operations has been historically small. Del Smith, Chairman of Evergreen International said that until you had to make a payroll from your mortgage payment, you should not judge other management.

The trend I see is not the Gulfstream situation. It is however the affiliated school. If you want to work at xyz airline, then your chances go up immensly if you were at their school or some school with which they have an arrangement. In effect, you are paying for them to train you for them. The only difference is that at Gulfstream, part of the training is on the line.

There are a good many things that are wrong with this business, this is not one of the major ones.

 

[enigma]

Re: Doctor and Lawyer P-F-T

I actually would not put Comair or MAPD under strict P-F-T because the certificates and ratings you earn in either place can be marketed anywhere

Good Post bobby,

Let me explain one thing. The above quote lets me know that I need to specify what I am fighting against. It seems that you are talking about the flight training schools that Comair and Mesa operate. I am trying to prevent a reoccurence of the time when Comair the AIRLINE, as opposed to the flight school, required one to bring $18k to the interview. It didn't matter whether the interviewee was current and qualified in the E120, or if he was a 1000 hour CFI, he had to pay for his job. At one time, Comair, ValueJet, COEX, ASA, and numerous other airlines required a pilot to buy his job. They would pass over pilots with years of time spent as a professional pilot in order to take one with no qualification other than the ability to get his daddy to write a check. Under PFT hiring programs, the training that one bought was NOT transferable, it was airline specific indoc, etc, that one must go through at every new airline. I agree that the licences/ratings one earns at the flight school stay in ones pocket, I just want to emphasize that the ground school one gets as an airline newhire is worth nothing anywhere except at that specific airline.

As soon as COEX came up with a plan to drop PFT for any pilot with more than a certain number of hours (1000 I think), I applied. I never even got an interview even though I had previous E120 time, previous scheduled service time, and 8 years of flying as a professional pilot in either an commuter airline or a corporate jet. (yes I would have worked for COEX, I want to work near where I live). I guarantee you that I am not the only one who couldn't get an interview, yet COEX was still hiring people under the PFT program.


Just to reiterate. I don't spend my valuable time posting in order to beat up those who PFT'd. I want to convince prospective PFT'rs/work for nothing types, not to buy a job. I believe that buying a job is ultimately counter productive and hurts us all, so I zealously fight against it. Sort of like Barney Fife said, "You got to Nip it in the bud, Ang, Nip it in the bud".

regards
8N
Keep up the good posts.

 

[enigma]

Re: Of apples and oranges

Where we split is that I do not think the caliber of individual is appreciably different in this situation than if we were hiring entry level F/o's off the street at minimum pay.

..............
They were underfinanced, did not really need a F/o at all, saw an opportunity to generate some income which they really needed to survive, so they offered up this program which stuck as they grew.

..............
Del Smith, Chairman of Evergreen International said that until you had to make a payroll from your mortgage payment, you should not judge other management.

Publisher,
Nice try, but I can't let you get by with it. I may get sarcastic and short, But I don't question the "caliber" of PFT'rs character. I have called them misinformed, mislead, or ignorant of reality, but I do try and avoid the personal side of the debate.

You said it. GENERATE SOME INCOME. The "training"verbage is and has always been a smoke screen.

I have paid payroll out of my personal mortgage, and my ex-wife and ex-mother-in-law would be glad to verify that. You're not the only one here who has some business background.

You know, what interests me about your posts in response to mine is that I AM arguing from a management perspective. Yet I find that you usually differ from me. It is I who repeatedly says, "dont' blame management when you walked into the interview offering to take anything/do anything in order to log a little turbine time". I don't always agree that the management way is the best way, and I don't think that most airline managers deserve the loyalty of their pilots, but my positions do come from my belief that we only get what we ask for. It's sort of funny that we often end up at odds. Interesting.

Later
8N

 

[bobbysamd]

Ab initio v. P-F-T

You got it, Enigma. The key lies in what is regarded as ab initio training versus P-F-T.

About ten years ago Comair had some kind of program in which you turned in the check and it sent you to training. It didn't matter what the applicant was flying; even if the applicant was a current Space Shuttle or X-15 pilot he/she still had to cough up the bread for the training. This traiing was conducted at the Comair school in Sanford. At the same time, Comair Aviation Academy, in Sanford, ran its ab initio program. I understand that program was essentially the same as any major flight school, but added the lure of "the interview."

Mesa has its ab initio program. It is not P-F-T because you have to learn how to fly somewhere and pay for it, unless Uncle Sam trains you to fly. Mesa's program actually was excellent in most respects. It was heavily skewed toward Mesa line procedures, but you still earned a regular Commercial-Instrument-Multi which you could market anywhere. There was also the lure of "the interview."

I believe that around 1993 Mesa started up a similar training program as Comair's, as I described above. Now, lately, Mesa has its PACE program, for which you pay and probably get an interview. I hear that it's high quality, but still, at the least, Pay-For-Interview.

I would tell people to go to either ab initio program. Both will cost ya. From my own knowledge, Mesa's works, but students have to walk the line. Now, for other, non ab initio programs, welllllllll . . . . . . . . they sound like you-know-what to me.

 

[Snakum]

<<She was wondering if there are any other industries besides aviation in which new-hires have to pay for their training. I haven't heard of any. Has anyone here heard of any? >>

Something similar ...

... a few years ago in the IT industry a company in the midwest would train you for your MSCD certification (Microsoft developer cert) and then you'd work for them free for six months. Also, when ISO 9000 certification for manufacturers was a hot item you could get the required ISO auditor experience by paying for the course thru BSI and then auditing for free for a few certifications to meet the requirements for Lead Assessor cert.

I didn't do these programs either.

Minh
Corporate Skyhawk Captain Extraordinaire

 

[46bubba]

Enigma,

You said the following:

At one time, Comair, ValueJet, COEX, ASA, and numerous other airlines required a pilot to buy his job. They would pass over pilots with years of time spent as a professional pilot in order to take one with no qualification other than the ability to get his daddy to write a check.

That is the first hard item posted here that makes the anti-PFT point and I conced that that is indeed a screwjob.

Regarding your earlier post about docs and lawyers, they do have to purchase a license in each state they want to practice in and for lawyers it sucks even more in that they have to re-sit for the bar in each state, so they are not receiving a blanket qual. My wife is an occupational therapist and her licenses are state by state. That is a strictly money generating operation. What's my point? Not exactly sure, but I don't agree with your corrollation.

 

[publisher]

Bobbysamd

Bobby,

You are right technically, however, I would contend that for what they pay you and the hours that you are supposed to work. some of the doctors and lawyers are paying for training. You are right, not cash, just blood sweat.

Enigma,

I find your posts pretty level and articulate. I plead guilty to sometimes just taking a point to see what comes back. This and scope issues are pretty lively on here.

One of the most abused and screwed up areas are flight attendants. They have to go through these 3 to 5 week schools and are often paid nothing to be there. While some airlines have special programs for people with experience (short cources), the fact is that it is ludicrous how they put these experienced people through this.

You are also on target that the airline specific training does not transfer. When I said that this is not pay for job, what I mean is that no one is led to believe this is a job for anything but a short period. It is a chance to build some hours in airline operation. The only thing that comes out is the turbine time and training.

There was never any question that this program was put together by Cooper to generate income. Does that mean that the training is bogus. I don't think that many of us do this for the altruistic contribution to the greater good. Well maybe Bobby.

My remark about payroll was not meant as anything but saying that I understood where Cooper was at earlier as he approached someone I worked for about help and we looked at it.

 

[46bubba]

Enigma,

I have gooned my response. You wrote:

If that is so, then why doesn't regional management hire you guys (assuming PFT is effect), without asking for money. PFT is only a way for airlines to defer costs save money. If it had anything to do with qualifications it wouldn't exist. Your defense of PFT just doesn't follow logic and your "bargain for regionals" shows that.

My point was that, those guys who did the PFT at ASA had a lot to offer and it was a defense of their decision. Their quals were sufficient and they have all succeeded (left seats). What would be their motivation to try and support their families instructing at an FBO or flying freight? They had all instructed before and more of the same would have amounted to little more than racking up hours for hours sake. It's value would have been marginal in either case. Additionally, it was not to suggest that during times of PFT that an ex mil type could use his background as a way around PFT. Policy is policy.

 

[bobbysamd]

Attorney licensure

Just to clarify that point, while the basic principals of law don't change from state to state, there are some laws and procedures that vary. Therefore, it really isn't out of line for an attorney to have to sit for the bar in different states and even then, attorneys don't always have to take the exam. Depending on the attorney's experience, the attorney may have to sit only for part of the bar exam or may not have to take it altogether.

You can't really compare sitting for a different bar exam to P-F-T. If you pass the bar in the state in question you can practice law anywhere in that state and not a specific lawfirm.

 

[8sm]

I'm amused at the posturing.

First, I was hoping to hear from those that adamently find disgust in the PFT/PFI practice, what they are doing from behind the computer screen to stop this practice, if anything.

Secondly, is it alright to instruct at these PFT/PFI schools. I would
think your also keeping the business going and feeding the beast.

I find the conversation interesting from those who are from PFT/PFI schools. I want to know why they chose that route? How successful the program? and did you find the training hard? How many of you advance to airlines? Did you get any grief in the interview because you PFT/PFI? Would you do it again? as well as many more question. I'm interested in learning from their experience good or bad. By negatively confronting these people we close the door on information. Knowing what your competiion has to offer in the interview, lets you know what your up against.

Perhaps the weight of qualification to airline pilot training will be for those willing and able too pay for initial training. I hope not, but with the rising cost to train and the turnover rate, those willing to jump from one airline to another, has force the business unable to no longer budget such expensive initial training. Those that have gone before you may have shot us in the foot.
I do not know of many businesses that can afford to pay for thousands of dollars of training and be willing to loose that money and employee if they should decide to walk. We all know that it happens all to often. We are our worst enemy, we perhaps forced our future employers to PFT/PFI. Funds are tight for payroll, training ect when consumers are only willing to pay $39 for a seat.

Thanks inadvance..........Best regards 8sm

 

[46Driver]

I've been on a trip and just got back so I did want to clarify a few items. One of the reasons that most naval helicopter pilots think that they can jump quickly into flying airlines (albeitly for a regional - not enough hours or experience for a major) is that for the last 35 years, the majority of the primary fixed wing (T-34C) flight instructors were helicopter bubbas. A helo driver would go through a short (50 - 70 hour) course and then its off as an instructor pilot teaching students approach turn stalls, spins, and acrobatics, as well as instruments - we don't think it is too far of a stretch for us to fly as a copilot in the airline environment (i.e. no acrobatics) Also, while you are correct in stating that most fleet helo time is uncontrolled VFR, the training command is different due to the fact that fully 50% of the syllabus is instruments and we spend most of our time trodding the airways and irritating jets while we are on the ILS
And to those who think PFT is a heated debate, Engima brought up the issue of scope which is far hotter. I will ask this question since I have limited experience on the civilian side. Is the RJ the cause or the effect? I would think it is a combination of the discount carriers (SOuthwest, Airtran, JetBlue) not only siphoning off passengers but changing the entire price structure. Likewise, the internet has made it easier for business and coach passengers to shop for prices. Finally, Executive Jet as well as the Acela train in the Northeast are taking a bigger share of the premium paying business passengers. That is just an observation - if you have any other insights or conclusions I would like to hear them.
Finally, you will be happy to know that I turned down my first job offer because it was PFT (7 were selected for the class and then I was singled out and told to PFT because I was a helo bubba). I declined the offer and went to another regional which offerred me a job , no strings attached.
Good Luck to all.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring rotorheads

Well, there you go. I've been saying all along that there are plenty of regionals that will hire military helo pilots if they can show even a little fixed-wing time. You just have to find the right regional. Your T-34C time most certainly counts as turbine PIC. If you could get a hundred or so in a C-12, you'd really be set without having to P-F-T. Once you can get in to a 121 regional and go up the chain, you'll be prime majors meat. The majors still let military pilots go to the front of line; it's a matter of checking off that box.

We had a helo driver a few weeks ago who had something like 100-200 of Seneca time lament that he'd have to go P-F-T. I don't believe it. In this day and age, someone with his background will get regional interviews. The military flying background and not the multi would be his calling card in his case.