I am a senior at the University of Illinois. I have been instructing while going through school for the past 7 months and now I have a decision coming up as I am about to graduate. What do I do know? I am taking a trip to FL in a few weeks to look at Pan Am, Gulfstream Academy, Flight Safety, and Airline Training Academy. What is everyone's opinion on these schools and PFT in general. I don't want to make a career ending decision before I get my career started! Any comments or concerns are appreciated. Thanks.
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chicks don't dig beta!
chicks don't dig beta!
Anyway, FlyChicaga thanks for the info on Gulfstream. I have done alot of research tonight on this web forum as well as at Jetcareers.com. Your opinion seems to be right on with everyone elses.
It would be great to have people respond who have first hand experience with these flight academies. This is a large chunk of change to go to these places. I have pretty much ruled out Gulfstream now but I am still curious about FSI, ATA, and Pan Am.
Please respond! ANY info will really help!
chicks don't dig beta!
Anyway, FlyChicaga thanks for the info on Gulfstream. I have done alot of research tonight on this web forum as well as at Jetcareers.com. Your opinion seems to be right on with everyone elses.
It would be great to have people respond who have first hand experience with these flight academies. This is a large chunk of change to go to these places. I have pretty much ruled out Gulfstream now but I am still curious about FSI, ATA, and Pan Am.
Please respond! ANY info will really help!
Let me give you a thought...
In this economic climate it may be unwise to spend all that money for an accelerated program when not too many airlines are hiring.
You may be better off getting a low pressure instructor gig somewhere (maybe U of I) to ride it out. That's what I'd do right now.
In this economic climate it may be unwise to spend all that money for an accelerated program when not too many airlines are hiring.
You may be better off getting a low pressure instructor gig somewhere (maybe U of I) to ride it out. That's what I'd do right now.
publisher
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postings
There are ample postings and discussion all over this board on the subject of pft.
In the examples you gave, only one is even PFT, that being Gulfstream Academy,
The others are all legitimate schools with programs that have positive and negatives. While you are in the area, you mise well go by ComAir Academy and TAB Express as well.
One point I would make is this. People say airlines are not hiring right now and that for the most part is still true. That of course, assumes that you are hell bent for an airline career and employment right now. It ignores all the other type of flying jobs like corporate and fractionals which continue to hire.
By the time you go through some of these programs, there will be additional opportunities but the fact is that students from these programs I have listed have been hired and are in classes now at airlines.
Your future success will depend on one thing more than any school or program you come from, mainly you.
Good luck to you
There are ample postings and discussion all over this board on the subject of pft.
In the examples you gave, only one is even PFT, that being Gulfstream Academy,
The others are all legitimate schools with programs that have positive and negatives. While you are in the area, you mise well go by ComAir Academy and TAB Express as well.
One point I would make is this. People say airlines are not hiring right now and that for the most part is still true. That of course, assumes that you are hell bent for an airline career and employment right now. It ignores all the other type of flying jobs like corporate and fractionals which continue to hire.
By the time you go through some of these programs, there will be additional opportunities but the fact is that students from these programs I have listed have been hired and are in classes now at airlines.
Your future success will depend on one thing more than any school or program you come from, mainly you.
Good luck to you
bobbysamd
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P-F-T and FSI
As Publisher said, there is abundant discussion on P-F-T. The long and short of it, in my .02 opinion, is don't demean yourself and set yourself up for resentment down the road by P-F-T'ing.
Don't feel that you're in a rush, either. You don't need an accelerated program. Frankly, if I were you, I'd stay the course. You'll build the time you need soon enough to be qualified for the commuters - and for ALL commuters, not just the P-F-T'ers. Try to get in the multis as soon as you can. Sometimes, all things indeed cometh to he who waiteth (while he worketh like hell while he waiteth).
I'm not sure why you're asking about schools, inasmuch as you've finished your ratings. Just the same, you asked for first-hand experience about flight academies, and I can tell you a little about FlightSafety. I instructed there ten years ago and I realize things change, but not that much. The place is expensive, but offers excellent training and opportunities for its graduates. When I worked there instructors were treated terribly. Management has changed since then, and I hear pay is better and working conditions are better. The place is purchasing new Seminoles, to augment an already large, excellent and well-maintained fleet. The place does offer good benies, including heath and a 401-K. I've heard the place is not hiring and there is a pool. Still, it never hurts to visit, if you'll be there anyway, and to leave a resume.
Hope this helps. Good luck with your plans.
As Publisher said, there is abundant discussion on P-F-T. The long and short of it, in my .02 opinion, is don't demean yourself and set yourself up for resentment down the road by P-F-T'ing.
Don't feel that you're in a rush, either. You don't need an accelerated program. Frankly, if I were you, I'd stay the course. You'll build the time you need soon enough to be qualified for the commuters - and for ALL commuters, not just the P-F-T'ers. Try to get in the multis as soon as you can. Sometimes, all things indeed cometh to he who waiteth (while he worketh like hell while he waiteth).
I'm not sure why you're asking about schools, inasmuch as you've finished your ratings. Just the same, you asked for first-hand experience about flight academies, and I can tell you a little about FlightSafety. I instructed there ten years ago and I realize things change, but not that much. The place is expensive, but offers excellent training and opportunities for its graduates. When I worked there instructors were treated terribly. Management has changed since then, and I hear pay is better and working conditions are better. The place is purchasing new Seminoles, to augment an already large, excellent and well-maintained fleet. The place does offer good benies, including heath and a 401-K. I've heard the place is not hiring and there is a pool. Still, it never hurts to visit, if you'll be there anyway, and to leave a resume.
Hope this helps. Good luck with your plans.
publisher
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Bobby
Flight Safety is the largest and strongest of the flight schools, they have however cut back on many of their programs since the 11th.
Even Bobbysamd says get to the multi as fast as possible and to some extent that is the single hardest and most important time to get, PIC multi engine turbine time.
At job fairs as example, I do not even ask total time. PIC multi and then turbine are the things that need addressed.
Forgetting the arguments for a moment on PFT in the specific, the thing that Gulfstream, TAB, ComAir and others have going is the airline mentality. The aircraft you are dealing with have systems and procedures that you will use in any of the corporate, fractional, regional, or major airlines.
The instruction that you will get in ground school is as important as the flight time and you should spend as much time checking out that aspect of any program you consider as looking at aircraft. In addition to the ones mentioned, ATP, ATA, RAA and others have the equipment. Look for who is teaching and the ground school systems training material they have avialable.
Flight Safety is the largest and strongest of the flight schools, they have however cut back on many of their programs since the 11th.
Even Bobbysamd says get to the multi as fast as possible and to some extent that is the single hardest and most important time to get, PIC multi engine turbine time.
At job fairs as example, I do not even ask total time. PIC multi and then turbine are the things that need addressed.
Forgetting the arguments for a moment on PFT in the specific, the thing that Gulfstream, TAB, ComAir and others have going is the airline mentality. The aircraft you are dealing with have systems and procedures that you will use in any of the corporate, fractional, regional, or major airlines.
The instruction that you will get in ground school is as important as the flight time and you should spend as much time checking out that aspect of any program you consider as looking at aircraft. In addition to the ones mentioned, ATP, ATA, RAA and others have the equipment. Look for who is teaching and the ground school systems training material they have avialable.
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enigma
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DON'T
Never pay for a job. It degrades your choosen profession and undermines your future earning potential.
Your wording leads me to believe that you are looking at these places in hopes that they will enable you to buy an airline job. Don't do it.
If you are looking at them as places of employement in of themselves, I say that any dollar earned honorable is OK, just don't pay them for a job. Please!!!!!
Bottom Line. Until we pilots start respecting our profession enough to demand professional treatment, we are doomed to be treated like slaves. If you doubt that anyone in the industry is treated like slaves, I encourage you to look into such things as "stand-up overnights" and 21 day reserve schedules. Or look into living on a leash (pager) like most corp/charter pilots.
regards
8N
jlarocca said:
Never pay for a job. It degrades your choosen profession and undermines your future earning potential.
Your wording leads me to believe that you are looking at these places in hopes that they will enable you to buy an airline job. Don't do it.
If you are looking at them as places of employement in of themselves, I say that any dollar earned honorable is OK, just don't pay them for a job. Please!!!!!
Bottom Line. Until we pilots start respecting our profession enough to demand professional treatment, we are doomed to be treated like slaves. If you doubt that anyone in the industry is treated like slaves, I encourage you to look into such things as "stand-up overnights" and 21 day reserve schedules. Or look into living on a leash (pager) like most corp/charter pilots.
regards
8N
bobbysamd
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Responses to above
Good points, Enigma and FlynMonkeys.
Hey, Pub, which programs have been cut back at the Academy?
Last I heard, the complete CIME and SE programs are going. I heard from an unimpeachable source the place is acquiring the Seminoles, as I said above, and has purchased new Arrows to replace the Mooneys.
I can believe it if the foreign airline contract biz is down, but I've heard the place is doing fine and survived the 911 rumors just fine.
Good points, Enigma and FlynMonkeys.
Hey, Pub, which programs have been cut back at the Academy?
Last I heard, the complete CIME and SE programs are going. I heard from an unimpeachable source the place is acquiring the Seminoles, as I said above, and has purchased new Arrows to replace the Mooneys.
I can believe it if the foreign airline contract biz is down, but I've heard the place is doing fine and survived the 911 rumors just fine.
3
350DRIVER
Stay AWAY from Gulfjoke- They are pretty much the "laughing stock" of this industry, I have never heard one positive comment about those people there. IF you choose to go there then you will be causing more trouble for yourself then you could ever have imagined that will last a career. Read "all" the threads concerning Gulfjoke and you will see that the facts speak for themselves.- bottom line-
FSI- you could never go wrong, one of the more highly respected flight institutions in the world with a solid proven track record. However with the limited hiring presently at the airlines you may want to consider an "alternative" that can save you lotsa money such as instructing at a smaller FBO since their is really no rush right now till the airlines and economy recover and a postive aspect of doing this is you will be able to "network" which will/can open an opportunity for a right seat 135 gig..- food 4 thought.
You have "ALL" your credentials so why pay more for a "long shot" at something versus instructing and letting time take its course.??
If I were you I would continue to be patient, instruct, and before you know it a pretty good opportunity will present itself. I was in your position not too long ago so I know what you are feeling BUT enjoy each and every step along the "long road" to your goals since once you achieve your goals you will be limited to your "free time" to be able to instruct- enjoy it "instructing" I found was a really rewarding experience.
cheers-
350
FSI- you could never go wrong, one of the more highly respected flight institutions in the world with a solid proven track record. However with the limited hiring presently at the airlines you may want to consider an "alternative" that can save you lotsa money such as instructing at a smaller FBO since their is really no rush right now till the airlines and economy recover and a postive aspect of doing this is you will be able to "network" which will/can open an opportunity for a right seat 135 gig..- food 4 thought.
You have "ALL" your credentials so why pay more for a "long shot" at something versus instructing and letting time take its course.??
If I were you I would continue to be patient, instruct, and before you know it a pretty good opportunity will present itself. I was in your position not too long ago so I know what you are feeling BUT enjoy each and every step along the "long road" to your goals since once you achieve your goals you will be limited to your "free time" to be able to instruct- enjoy it "instructing" I found was a really rewarding experience.
cheers-
350
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As a recent FSI grad, I can vouch for the fact that it is an excellent school. However, if you are interested in instructing there, there are 50+ FSI-trained CFIs waiting for a slot to open up and i don't think they'll be looking at non-FSI pilots for quite some time. There is no longer a bridge program to ASA. There is a multi-crew training course which involves king air and SAAB 2000 sim time, but it's about$25K.
I haven't heard many good things about Pan Am but I have been told by some Pan Am students that things are a little rough there right now and I heard a rumor (only a rumor!) that they lost their part 141 certification.
Good luck
-j
I haven't heard many good things about Pan Am but I have been told by some Pan Am students that things are a little rough there right now and I heard a rumor (only a rumor!) that they lost their part 141 certification.
Good luck
-j
bobbysamd
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O-T-S hiring
Definitely, a lot depends on need. I just wanted to mention that every job I got in aviation was off-the-street, including Riddle, FSI, Mesa PD and a couple of others. All were CFI jobs. Networking and inside contacts always help, but you can be hired from the outside. Don't forget, right place at the right time, (respectful) persistance, and with luck being a major player. If you can drop a name in a cover letter, that can help, but is not necessary.
Once again, leave materials with someone when you're in the neighborhood.
Definitely, a lot depends on need. I just wanted to mention that every job I got in aviation was off-the-street, including Riddle, FSI, Mesa PD and a couple of others. All were CFI jobs. Networking and inside contacts always help, but you can be hired from the outside. Don't forget, right place at the right time, (respectful) persistance, and with luck being a major player. If you can drop a name in a cover letter, that can help, but is not necessary.
Once again, leave materials with someone when you're in the neighborhood.
Timebuilder
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Just before I went to Sun n Fun to relax and canvass flight schools for a new instructing job (one that actually had some flight students..) I spoke with Allan Holland, the Chief Instructor at FSI, and while at Lakeland I called Connie Fillipe in their office, to get the latest news.
Allan had said that there was a possibility of hiring "sometime in the second quarter", and Connie said that while that could happen, she thought it unlikely. So, for the near term, no jobs for outside instructors at FSI.
Make some calls. I did find some smaller Florida schools that seemed interested. The trick will be finding a school where you can teach multi engine. That's the only economical way to build time and experience that will eventually help you to get a job. In about 10 months, I may need an SIC for the Lear...but multi time in IFR will be a plus, just like it was for me.
Also, find some schools using Google and climb to 350. Stick all the sites in Favorites, and start calling and faxing. Ask if they know a school who IS hiring, if they are not. I have a folder of faxes I sent. It's almost 1/2 inch thick, and that only took three months.
Be persistent!
Allan had said that there was a possibility of hiring "sometime in the second quarter", and Connie said that while that could happen, she thought it unlikely. So, for the near term, no jobs for outside instructors at FSI.
Make some calls. I did find some smaller Florida schools that seemed interested. The trick will be finding a school where you can teach multi engine. That's the only economical way to build time and experience that will eventually help you to get a job. In about 10 months, I may need an SIC for the Lear...but multi time in IFR will be a plus, just like it was for me.
Also, find some schools using Google and climb to 350. Stick all the sites in Favorites, and start calling and faxing. Ask if they know a school who IS hiring, if they are not. I have a folder of faxes I sent. It's almost 1/2 inch thick, and that only took three months.
Be persistent!
bobbysamd
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172 Hole Boring
True, Pub, but you've got to start somewhere. You can still teach plenty of instruments in singles and get some great real-world IFR experience (and log actual!), especially down your way in Florida.
Singles are a stepping-stone in the schools I've known. But, yes, you need to get into the multis, and the sooner the better. It seemed that I waited forever to get into the multis at Riddle in '89. It seemed forever to me; in reality, I was upgraded after eight months. Then, I had multi students coming out of my ears. It just takes persistance, time, and patience.
True, Pub, but you've got to start somewhere. You can still teach plenty of instruments in singles and get some great real-world IFR experience (and log actual!), especially down your way in Florida.
Singles are a stepping-stone in the schools I've known. But, yes, you need to get into the multis, and the sooner the better. It seemed that I waited forever to get into the multis at Riddle in '89. It seemed forever to me; in reality, I was upgraded after eight months. Then, I had multi students coming out of my ears. It just takes persistance, time, and patience.
enigma
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publisher
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Missed point of
First, I am not sure we are stioll on the subject. I did not understand that this fellow was looking for a school to instruct or looking at accelerated programs.
In addition, there are several web sites that have massive lists of schools. You said look for schools who use ???? did not get it. Probably just a semanic thing although I have not seen much on 350.
First, I am not sure we are stioll on the subject. I did not understand that this fellow was looking for a school to instruct or looking at accelerated programs.
In addition, there are several web sites that have massive lists of schools. You said look for schools who use ???? did not get it. Probably just a semanic thing although I have not seen much on 350.
bobbysamd
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Early 1990s Hiring, or lack thereof
Oh, boy, does that sound familiar! I could have written Ty's post because I was there as well. I love the "the deafening silence and outright rejection." It was so true!! Don't forget, Pan Am failed shortly thereafter. I saw the same frustrating ads in Trade-A-Plane and Air Jobs Digest as well - and by that time I had upwards of 3000 total and circa 800 of multi AND my ATP!
Hiring is very much tied to the economy. The economy will get better because it always does. Furloughees will be recalled and, hopefully, all absorbed, and airlines will be looking for fresh talent. Just hang in and keep spamming your materials.
I like Ty's suggestion of getting an A & P as an excellent additional credential and/or aerobatics training, for some REAL value for your training dollar.
Best of luck to you.
Oh, boy, does that sound familiar! I could have written Ty's post because I was there as well. I love the "the deafening silence and outright rejection." It was so true!! Don't forget, Pan Am failed shortly thereafter. I saw the same frustrating ads in Trade-A-Plane and Air Jobs Digest as well - and by that time I had upwards of 3000 total and circa 800 of multi AND my ATP!
Hiring is very much tied to the economy. The economy will get better because it always does. Furloughees will be recalled and, hopefully, all absorbed, and airlines will be looking for fresh talent. Just hang in and keep spamming your materials.
I like Ty's suggestion of getting an A & P as an excellent additional credential and/or aerobatics training, for some REAL value for your training dollar.
Best of luck to you.
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publisher
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Timebuilder
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Sorry for the confusion. In a desire for some brevity, I wrote that he should "search for schools using Google and climbto 350..." when I might have written "search for schools by using Google and climbto350".
Just thought I'd give him a start on finding some instruction leads.
With respect, if we were all black females here, we'd be working for majors.
Just thought I'd give him a start on finding some instruction leads.
With respect, if we were all black females here, we'd be working for majors.
airmack
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PFT article...
I found an interesting article that sheds some light on the question paying for training. Just a quick question to BOBBYSAMD and 350DRIVER. Since you guys seem to have all the answers in reference to getting hired, what airlines do you fly for? WWJD
http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/payartl.html:p
I found an interesting article that sheds some light on the question paying for training. Just a quick question to BOBBYSAMD and 350DRIVER. Since you guys seem to have all the answers in reference to getting hired, what airlines do you fly for? WWJD
http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/payartl.html:p
bobbysamd
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I've been out of aviation for several years. During the years I was in aviation I put forth a great deal of effort trying to get hired, received plenty of advice, attended a seminar or two, and received coaching and sim training. I followed the experiences of my colleagues who did get hired and absorbed it all. I read everything I could about getting hired at airlines and elsewhere. I had five commuter interviews. I was not hired. I worked for Mesa briefly, at its school. I worked for ERAU, FSI, a smaller organization, and was with still another briefly. All were airline-oriented and/or had students with airline aspirations. I learned a great deal from my experiences.
During the time I was seeking airline employment P-F-T sprung up. Not only was I suspicious of a job being offered conditioned on me giving someone money, and big money at that, I considered it demeaning to have to pay for a job, which P-F-T really is.
PS-I read the article by our old friend Kit Darby's organization that Airmack mentioned. The factual background of P-F-T in the article is accurate. Kit acknowledges that P-F-T is controversial, but it would be too much to expect him to write about cons (downsides and other types of "cons") of P-F-T.
During the time I was seeking airline employment P-F-T sprung up. Not only was I suspicious of a job being offered conditioned on me giving someone money, and big money at that, I considered it demeaning to have to pay for a job, which P-F-T really is.
PS-I read the article by our old friend Kit Darby's organization that Airmack mentioned. The factual background of P-F-T in the article is accurate. Kit acknowledges that P-F-T is controversial, but it would be too much to expect him to write about cons (downsides and other types of "cons") of P-F-T.
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Ty Webb
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Hey, Mack:
Look at the source, and the date, before you waste everyone's time with that link.
First of all, it was put out by Air Inc.- 'nuff said.
Second, it was published in 1995. The only thing it has in common with today is that it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
Third, if you had spent any time on the subject, or even read Bobby's info or any of his posts, you would already have your answer.
And last- it's interesting that you want to know who everyone else works for. Now, let's hear who you WORK for (or who do you rent your seat from)?
Look at the source, and the date, before you waste everyone's time with that link.
First of all, it was put out by Air Inc.- 'nuff said.
Second, it was published in 1995. The only thing it has in common with today is that it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
Third, if you had spent any time on the subject, or even read Bobby's info or any of his posts, you would already have your answer.
And last- it's interesting that you want to know who everyone else works for. Now, let's hear who you WORK for (or who do you rent your seat from)?
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