Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[Princedietrich]

As a freight dawg that goes in and out of CLE and BKL frequently, here's my major gripe. Just last week I did a leg from BKL to LCK in a Caravan. I was assigned 360 at 2000 for at least 7 or 8 miles (rough estimate, the crib was WAY behind me and downtown looked really small). I then got a turn to 280 for several more miles. Abeam CLE I was cleared to 6000. When I got abeam Lorain, it was a turn south. It was somewhere around Medina before I finally got "on course."

So here's my question.

Would it not have been easier to keep me low and have me go south from BKL so I'd be under and out of the way of the heavy metal? It would get me home sooner and you wouldn't have to deal with me as long.

I do like doing the night freight thing when it comes to ATC. Most times, I'm either the only one going into the airport so the airspace is all mine. The rest of the time I'm going into that airport with other freight dawgs who are just as crazy as I am. Plus, controllers on the graveyard shift seem to be rather bored and kinda lonely so there's potential for good conversation.

Here's one that I'll pass on to you ATC guys. I don't know if you're graveyard shift controllers, but if you need a Starchecker to do a slam dunk or a high and fast don't hesitate to ask. We'll not only pull it off, but we'll look good doing it and will be thanking you for it.


To lighten the mood, here's one that I heard way back when during my CFII days. We were over southern Ohio talking to Indy Center, and a pilot chimed in on frequency "with a query." The controller's response was "You know what a query is right?" Several moments of confused silence, then the controller responded by saying "a straight question." My student and I were busting a gut, and I was wondering if it was actually legal for him to say something like that on ATC. Oh, in case it didn't come across clearly in the translation to written text, the pilot pronounced it "queery."

One day at BWI during a really nasty rainstorm, we were in the full grip of a massive gate hold and saw a Mooney taxiing out. The Mooney chimed in and asked the controller to "say conditions," and anyone could tell that he was trying to get the controller to say on tape that it was visual conditions so the Mooney could depart VFR. The controller's response was "look out the window." The Mooney pilot got all huffy and berated the controller for being so rude, but personally I think the guy deserved to get his chops busted for such a stupid question.

Finally, here's a really humorous one. Working as a starving CFI/slave at BKL years ago, I was in an office that was about 10 feet down the hallway from the door leading to the control tower stairs. One controller, a rather teddy-bearish and friendly fellow named Steve, was getting ready to go upstairs and go on shift when the door suffered a bit of a malfunction. The doorknob came off in his hand and he couldn't get in. He got on the phone to the cab and was yelling in desperation for Jack (the on duty controller) to come down and let him in because "the damn door handle fell off!" The next day, a sign had been placed on the door stating "this door has been rendered inoperative by the control tower gorilla."

 

[Say Again Over]

so they mix the "hold your position" and "position and hold"

they get all dumbfounded with me when i tell em to start rollin by kream

Sounds like they need to learn English first, "position and hold", "hold short", "hold your position", all nice things to know if your a pilot.

 

[threegreen]

Whats the big deal about calling ATC first before stating your request... ATC does it to us when they have an unusual request, and it usually helps more than it hurts.

Sometimes ATC is on the land line, telling a joke, drinking coffee, whatever and may not be able to process the entirety of the request the first time it's transmitted unless an 'attention-getting' xmission is used. Same goes for pilots.

 

[GVFlyer]

ATC Guys...

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said average controller pay was $166,000.00, what do the most senior controllers make?

GV

 

[kf4amu]

Whats the big deal about calling ATC first before stating your request... ATC does it to us when they have an unusual request, and it usually helps more than it hurts.

Sometimes ATC is on the land line, telling a joke, drinking coffee, whatever and may not be able to process the entirety of the request the first time it's transmitted unless an 'attention-getting' xmission is used. Same goes for pilots.

I think the key word is "unusual request". In this case, I agree. Most transmissions are not unusual.

Why do it in 4 if you can do it in 2 just as easily? And if they (pilot or ATC) misses it the first time, and the other party needs to repeat it, you still only have 3 transmissions instead of 4.

 

[CalifDan]

Why do it in 4 if you can do it in 2 just as easily? And if they (pilot or ATC) misses it the first time, and the other party needs to repeat it, you still only have 3 transmissions instead of 4.

You still have 4. I have worked emergency response although many years ago. The system is sufficiently different to allow many communications to occur with short and completely or partially coded content.

I agree that an initial "unexpected" call to ATC should be just to get their attention.

 

[LarryinTN]

better then 5 and 5 I dont have to say crap!

That's correct. Just understand that to those of us who fly bigger, faster airplanes there is an operational difference between 6SM OVC055 and 25SM SKC and we appreciate the additional information when it is given on ATIS (as it usually is).

 

[Hold West]

Then why is it so uncommon to hear it?

Please tell me why it would be tough to coordinate an extra five seconds into your perfect vectors to ask one little question?

Then you wouldn't have to hear people telling you "we've got the field when it helps" or reading back your approach clearance with "uh...we've got the field in sight....can we get a visual?".

I tend to think things are simpler than they are, but maybe you could educate me to the contrary...sarcasm not needed.

Well, I'd say because for the most part I don't care if you do a visual approach or not. You want a visual approach. I plan, mostly, on setting you up in a good position from which to execute an instrument approach to the runway in use. All of us have burned ourselves enough vectoring someone in close for a visual approach, then finding a couple of clouds in just the wrong place - and then having no where to go with the aircraft.

For whatever reason, I feel like I'm waking some people up when I issue an approach clearance, and they suddenly look out the window and say "oh, hey, airport in sight!"

I once got the best "airport in sight" report EVER - vectoring a 717 for an approach, following a 737, going over the top of a C208, and with a United 757 off to one side getting set up to follow the 717. The 717 pilot all of a sudden pipes up, "Center, we have the 737, the Caravan, United, and the airport in sight!" Game over! When I was done cracking up, I cleared him to "maintain visual separation from the caravan and the 757, follow the 737, cleared visual approach!" That guy really had the flick!

 

[NJAFracPilot]

ATC Pay

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said average controller pay was $166,000.00, what do the most senior controllers make?

GV

I'd kinda like to know, too.

 

[minitour]

...I don't care...

Next time you need someone to do something funky for separation on your end, remember those three words.

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said average controller pay was $166,000.00, what do the most senior controllers make?

GV

Bullshat.

The *average* controller doesn't make that unless he worked at a major hub every weekend, Holidays, lots of nights, and did a fair amount of overtime to boot. I've got 26 years and made about $60,000 less than that in pay. Now, they want to add on the claimed value of bennies like health and life, retirement, etc., then you probably can come close to that figure. But pay? Nope.

And by the way, I make about $10-15K more than the average controller at my facility.

 

[flyflorida2001]

Here's one

Great Thread.

Hey...what do pilots and controllers have in common?


When the pilot screws up...the pilot dies

When the controller screws up....the pilot dies



Great job ATC guys....love what ya do for us.

 

[Hold West]

I'd kinda like to know, too.

I don't know nothin' about averages. I do know, with 22 years in, working in a facility paid at the second highest ATC rate the FAA has, I grossed about 152,000 last year. I'm probably in the top fifth in terms of pay amongst the controllers in our facility.

That number includes holidays, nights, overtime, etc. Average here is probably (I'm guessing) about 120k.

 

[Hold West]

Next time you need someone to do something funky for separation on your end, remember those three words.

-mini

Jeez, dude, don't take it personally. I'm just saying it doesn't matter to me - doesn't affect me a whole lot. And that's why I say if YOU want it, call the field in sight early and often, I'm almost always happy to oblige. This thread is officially beaten to death.

 

[Hold West]

Whats the big deal about calling ATC first before stating your request... ATC does it to us when they have an unusual request, and it usually helps more than it hurts.

Sometimes ATC is on the land line, telling a joke, drinking coffee, whatever and may not be able to process the entirety of the request the first time it's transmitted unless an 'attention-getting' xmission is used. Same goes for pilots.

Depends on what it is. The one that makes me grind my teeth is the one that comes right after I talk to you anyway:

"Minneapolis Center, Cessna 28W, 5,000."
"Cessna 29W, Minneapolis Center, roger."
"And, uh, center, Cessna 29W, request."
"Cessna 29W, go ahead"
"Cessna 29W request climb to 7,000"
"Cessna 29W, climb and maintain 7,000"
"Cessna 29W, leaving 5,000 for 7,000"

Now, if have some lengthy request, by all means give me a heads up. I do appreciate that. If it's a relatively routine request, just go ahead and spit it out.

One more consideration for this thread: don't give me too much detail:

"Center, Cessna 29W, request radar vectors for the ILS followed by the published miss and vectors for another ILS, then three turns in holding at the VOR, then the VOR-A approach via the procedure turn, and we'll finish up with a few touch-and-goes."

Dang, I won't remember all that, take it in bite-sized chunks as we need it.