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Pay for training

Skyline

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Pay for training

Someone once told me that PFT is a bad idea that will get you blackballed from the industry. I remember that kind of talk fifteen years ago back when they use to sell most commuter jobs. I never saw anything negative happen to those guys except they they all got furloughed from their cushy jobs at the majors few years later. I say that no one cares about PFT and that in fact we all pay for training through, buying our initial training, type ratings, training contracts and low pay. what is to stop you from buying your first job?

The human resources people at most companies can barely tell which college degrees are real let alone keeping up with the latest PFT programs. The crusty old Captains at the interview don't follow that kind of thing. Besides after that first job it doesnt make a difference anyway. Kill Bill will tell you that even union scabs can't even get blackballed these days. Why they even run the union at CAL.

The only people who get bent out of shape about PFT are those who are competing for the same positions. A twenty year airline captain couldn't tell you what the ERU Captain program is from anything else. We all are dealt a different hand in life. Some have youth and early wisdom. Some have a papa to walk their resumes in at a nice major airline. Others fit a desired cultural sub set. Some may only have money to open doors with. I say who cares? Do what you have to to get ahead. No one will care two years from now.

SkyLine
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mayday1

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Skyline, if you run a board search on PFT you will see that this has been a hotly debated topic many times. Many will say it is killing the industry and driving low wages. Personally, I think PFT has little to do with poor wages.. it is the throngs of qualified pilots who line up to eagerly take $18k/yr FO slots that drive these wages points.

I'm all for "paying your dues" and working your way up in any industry. I'm a corporate manager myself.. but I've earned it through paying for education, and paying my dues working up the corporate ladder... but ain't no way I'd be doing all this to work for below poverty level wages.. sorry, no thanks.
 

Snakum

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As I have stated many times here, over the past six years (I was here before the revamp), I could personally give less than two $h!ts about PFT. When I first started flying everyone did it, or they didn't fly for the airlines. And talking to older airlines types, I too, was actually urged to do it in order to get ahead.

However ....

In these days when PFT is not required to get a job, when in fact, everyone and their brother is hiring at 600/100, paying for a job to jump ahead is kind of silly considering that you may have saved yourself a year, at most. The money would be much better spent elsewhere.

But even more importantly ...

Those who have PFT'd in these times of 600/100 hiring into the regionals, and who then were able to 'bridge' over to a regional from the PFT seat at 400 hours, and then suddenly become the evangelist for all things ALPA and anti-RJDC ... well ... that's just #*$^ing laughable. This guy who is slamming GJs, Mesa, J4J Pilots from US Air, RJDC, God, and everybody and his brother for not acting in exactly the manner this now-reformed PFTer suddenly feels they should (whew!) is a tool of the highest order. He is a joke.

I have no problem with someone who does the deed (PFTs, SCABS, etc) and then stands up and says "Yes ... I did it, here's why ... " or "Yes, I did, and I'm sorry and I'll live with the consequences ..." or whatever. I may not agree with his choices ... but I'd respect the man. That's what is kind of cool about TurboS7. Everyone here knows his real name, they know where he crossed the line and with whom, and he catches absolute hell for it time and time again. But he's always gracious in the face of the anger and he has fully admitted what he did and why he did it.

But when you do it, and then after GETTING YOURS, you suddenly get religion to become the firebreathingest ALPA evangelist in the history of aviation, constantly berating those who are making similar choices (And yes ... those choices ARE all similar.) and talking down to everyone now that You Got Yours ... well then I do have a problem with it. And so many, many others. And we often spout off about it.

Besides ... it's the internet. We're supposed to be arguing and calling each other terrible names. :D

Minh
 
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Skyline

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PFT

From what you guys have said. People do survive the tabo of PFT and they do get ahead.

Sorry I wasn't here for earlier posts about this topic.

Some times a year can make all the diffrence in the world. I wish I had the good sence to try and buy my way in.


SkyLine
 

Snakum

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People do survive the tabo (sic) of PFT and they do get ahead.
Absolutely. And to be honest, if I'd had that kind of jack in 1995 I might have done it, too. I, as well as most other sensible people here, can appreciate that everyone has to make their own decisions based on their own particular situation. Who are we to tell them how they should climb the ladder. I myself get sick of being told that I should get out of the King Air and go instruct (so the newbie CFI can have MY seat in it, no doubt). Gimme a farking break! :eek:

However the hipocrasy (sp?) thing is something that many of us evidently do have an issue with, and that's why you see people slamming the guy. It's not the fact that he PFT'd. No biggie there. Who cares? It's the 'Eff You - I Got Mine and now I'm a die hard ALPA man and will bag everyone else' thing he does that ticks people off. Like most people here, I'm sure he's a nice guy in real life, and I'm sure he's a good pilot or he wouldn't be employed at Pinnacle. But the constant GJs/RDJC/Mesa bashing is just wrong considering the circumstances, imho.

Besides ... it's the internet and we have to have something stupid to argue about. :D

Ming Chong Wing
 
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avbug

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Skyline,


Here I thought you were a serious poster, not a flame baiter. You're either very, very bitter about not achieving those dreams you lamented on the General board, or you're just looking to get a rise out of folks. Judging from the way you came on in the other thread and just kept after it, I think you're after a rise out of people, and are trying to find topics that upset folks.

That's unfortunate. What we have here is another case of sour grapes.
 

Skyline

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Dear Avbug

Sorry for the obvious bait job, but I really believe in what I post. You are someone with high moral standards and I accept your criticism. And Yea, I am a little bitter about a few things in aviation. Hwoever, my posts are honestly to try and help others to avoid some of the mistakes that I made. On this matter I fully believe that each of us should do whatever is in our power to get ahead, except things that are immoral or illegal. Buying your job is a good idea if you can afford it.

Skyline
 

Goose Egg

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For what it's worth, I probably wouldn't PFT now or 10 years from now, the reason being that I just don't want an airline job that much. I want to fly, no question. But the airline job isn't neccessarily "where it's at" for me.

-Goose
 

Snakum

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You are someone with high moral standards
Well ... I don't know if I'd go that far. :eek:

Hugely knowledgeable? Rodger.

Entertaining? Check.

High moral standards? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeet. :nuts:

:laugh:

Minhberg
 

Skyline

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Goose

Hey goose,

Even if you don't wish to fly for an airline buying a type rating or twin to build time is the same thing.

Skyline
 

Goose Egg

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Skyline said:
Even if you don't wish to fly for an airline buying a type rating or twin to build time is the same thing.
PFT is paying for your training as a condition of employment, in essence, "buying" a job. "Buying" a type or twin is not the same because there is no job offer attached.

At any rate, I probably wouldn't buy a type either--if a company wants me to have a type, they can pay for it their danged selves. Aircraft ownership is a goal of mine, but I'd probably stick with the rag-and-tube taildragger or glassy engineless variety.

-Goose
 

Skyline

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Buying The Job

In the 60's the airlines would hire people and then pay for all their basic through advanced flight training. Compared to those times we all PFT. Besides in this competitive environment it takes a little edge to get ahead. I think SWA still requires a type as a condition of employment. I say that working for 18K is also a form of buying your job. In the end we all pay. It is much cheaper to pay with cash than with wasted years of your life.


Skyline.
 

Goose Egg

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Skyline said:
In the 60's the airlines would hire people and then pay for all their basic through advanced flight training. Compared to those times we all PFT.
Welcome to the 2000's. We've been expecting you.

Besides in this competitive environment it takes a little edge to get ahead. I think SWA still requires a type as a condition of employment.
Yes, but they don't require you to buy it from them--in fact, to my knowledge, you can't buy a type from SWA. That's the distinction. I mean, I see where you are coming from, it still is a large cash outlay to qualify for the job, but SWA is not PFT in the strict sense.

In any case, I don't have any desire to work for WN or a PFT outfit. Frankly, flying for an airline just isn't that important to me. If someone wants me to have a type, they can pay for it. I'm not paying for the privilege of earning money for someone else.

I say that working for 18K is also a form of buying your job. In the end we all pay. It is much cheaper to pay with cash than with wasted years of your life.
Who's working for $18K? I'm not. And I'm certainly not wasting my life.

-Goose
 
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Skyline

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Logic and Fact ???

Goose, minitour,

Hey don't help yourself. I have known dozens of hard cases just like you. Why I was one. I always wanted to make it as honestly as possible and to take the most difficult path.
True heros of the sky right? You like doing things the hard way in an already heavily competitive market. I will see the both of you on the construction site someday.


Skyline
 

minitour

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No job is worth paying for. Say what you want, but I don't see myself working in "construction" any time soon...but have fun at that. My brother in law loves it and makes a ton of money.

-mini
 

Skyline

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Pay

I suppose the flight school just gave you your licences? When the first real company decides to take a chance on you and they slide that big nasty training contract across the desk I hope you decline on principle.

An ego is an expensive luxury in this industry. Stay strong true believer.

Skyline
 

minitour

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Skyline said:
I suppose the flight school just gave you your licences?
Aaaaaaaand did I get a job based on the fact that I paid for the training there? nnnnno...didn't think so.


Skyline said:
When the first real company decides to take a chance on you and they slide that big nasty training contract across the desk I hope you decline on principle.
I assume you mean if they slide a contract across the desk saying I do something like pay them for my initial/transition/upgrade/type? If so, then yeah...I'd walk. I'm not paying someone to work for them.

What is so hard to understand about this? When you get hired, they pay you...not the other way around. Doesn't that make sense to everyone? I'm amazed at the people in this world that don't understand that. I wish you the best of luck in your career...but we already know you won't need it, you'll just buy your luck. :rolleyes:

-mini
 

Skyline

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Hey

You are truely a tuff one. I don't know where you are planning to go in this field but we all pay in the end. I am just trying to save you some pain. Some folks are just in it for the money, others for the adventure and some for the self destruction.

I've got to turn in now. I would expten a "Good luck" to you, but I know you will not want it.

Skyline
 
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