Pay for training

[BushwickBill]

I feel sorry for all the PFT guys. Pay 25,000 to work for an airline thats hanging on by a thread. I'm sure a lot of them wind up working outside of the airline industry after a few years. A lot of my buddys from flight school are going this route. I wish them the best but I would have taken the low yeild bond option if I had that kind of money. Then I maybe I could make a down payment on a house after 20 years somewhere - hopefully.

 

[Skyline]

House

Bill

That is part of my point. This isn't really a career anymore but more of a working hobby. Most of us will end up being furloughed and bounced around from company to company. By the time 20 years rolls around most of us would have been better off buying a house instead of getting our licenses. However if you are going to really go for it then you need to do whatever is in your power to get ahead. Buying a first job could save three or more years and that is priceless. Back in the early 90's Valuejet now called Airtran sold its pilot jobs for $50,000. We could easily see those days come back again.

Skyline

 

[Goose Egg]

Wow, where do I start?

I think I'll start here:

Enjoy your Cessna 150.

I wasn't planning on a 150 per se, (unless you know about a fabric covered tailwheel version that I don't) but something of similar dimensions and capacity. Consult my avatar if you are in need of a broader hint. But then again, some of my best moments in flying have taken place in a C-152. Go figure.

I always wanted to make it as honestly as possible and to take the most difficult path.

So forking out $15 to $25k in order to secure a job at a single outfit is the "easy" path? What if you get laid off? Is it the easy path then?

True heros of the sky right? You like doing things the hard way in an already heavily competitive market. I will see the both of you on the construction site someday.

Heros of the sky? I can't speak for mini (although his logic is unimpeachable), but for me, there is no "PFT" for my goals, there are just qualifications and job offers. PFT is not an option for me. If that makes me a 'hero of the sky,' then so be it. And yes, the market is competitive, but that's what we signed up for. I decided a long time ago that as long as I'm flying and making ends meet financially, then I'm happy. As far as I'm concerned, "buying" a single job offer does not constitute "making ends meet."

Oh, and about that construction site comment, I'll have a masters degree in the near future, so I don't think you'll see me there any time soon--not that construction isn't an honorable and financially rewarding endeavor. And I do like to "mix it up" with the construction guys every now and then down at the Home Depot.

I suppose the flight school just gave you your licences? When the first real company decides to take a chance on you and they slide that big nasty training contract across the desk I hope you decline on principle.

A training contract is not PFT. The company is simply ensuring that you won't bolt at the next thing that comes down the pike. To be constantly paying for employees' training only to have them ditch out in a few months puts the employer in a precarious financial position. I completely see where they are coming from. If you are unsure about whether you are willing to stay the duration of the contract, don't accept the job.

And actually, (funny you should mention this) the school didn't "give" me my licenses. The government did. I flew at a state school. Tuition and flight costs were dirt cheap, and I recieved pell grants to cover most of my training. And the school that I currently instruct at paid for my CFI-G, will pay for my MEI, and would have paid for my CFII if I hadn't already had it. If you hang around long enough and work hard, they'll likely pay for your ATP too. They are also paying for my masters degree (well, waiving tuition. That's sort of like paying.)

An ego is an expensive luxury in this industry.

Yeah, and it runs about $15 to $25K for a single job offer.

Some folks are just in it for the money, others for the adventure and some for the self destruction.

I'll take "adventure" for $500, Alex. But strangely enough, auto-pilot ON at 400' AGL just doesn't seem like adventure to me. If you want to PFT to read USA Today and commute to sit reserve, you go right ahead.

-Goose

 

[Skyline]

Well good for you.

Goose,

I'll concede. Good for you. Go after it on your own terms. It sounds like you have a good handle on things. I went after it on my own terms too. After college I went to Alaska and was a bush pilot for almost 8 years in a variety of positions. Along the way I bought a Taylorcraft F19 with floats wheels and skis.

I had a lot of fun and it was rewarding on a spiritual level but it cost me a stable career in later years. That kind of flying takes its toll and sooner or later everyone has to get out. Some in a pine box. In the end they were all wasted years. If I were able to go back in time I would have gone to the nearest airline that was selling jobs and gotten on the tread mill at my first opportunity.

I also was an MBA student but dropped out to take another stupid flying job. I know that a few of you younger pilots will jump on me and call me a dream killer, but someday you will get old too and realize the price of doing some of these silly things in youth. If you could get on with a stable airline while you are young by the time you are my age you could afford to buy several planes and still pursue your low and slow dreams.

Sadly two weeks ago a Continental Airlines pilot died helping a friend to fly a Beaver down from Alaska doing just that. He was young successful and wealthy, and doing exactly what he wanted in life.

Skyline.

 

[Goose Egg]

After college I went to Alaska and was a bush pilot for almost 8 years in a variety of positions. Along the way I bought a Taylorcraft F19 with floats wheels and skis.

Now that sounds like a lot of fun! I have had the opportunity to do a little bit of that sort of thing and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't see myself trying to make a career of that either though. You are right--it would definitely take a toll. Fun to do on the side though (hence my choice of airplanes.)

In the end they were all wasted years. If I were able to go back in time I would have gone to the nearest airline that was selling jobs and gotten on the tread mill at my first opportunity.

But to what end? Perhaps they were 'wasted years' in the sense that it held up your airline career, but what about the experiences you had while you were there? And if you hadn't done that, would you be the same person that you are now? Wasted years? Hardly! Don't do that to yourself!

...but someday you will get old too and realize the price of doing some of these silly things in youth.

At the risk of waxing dogmatic, I believe that we are all placed here on this earth for a reason. One man's "silly thing" is another man's higher purpose. You can't know exactly what I mean by this because I haven't specified, but suffice to say that we are all blessed with unique talents and abilities with which we can be a benefit to our fellow man.

If you could get on with a stable airline while you are young by the time you are my age you could afford to buy several planes and still pursue your low and slow dreams.

Stable airline!? Where!? (Kidding)

Sure, I'd like a Husky or something like it, but if I never own one, that's ok. I'll live. Sure, I'd like to own a glider, but there are plenty of clubs around with some decent ships. What I'm trying to say is that I'd much rather have a job that I enjoyed and found fulfilling than "toys." You spend innumerable hours at work. You spend a few hours here and there with your toys. Besides, if it came down to a decision spending time with my family and spending time with my toys, family would win no contest.

Sadly two weeks ago a Continental Airlines pilot died helping a friend to fly a Beaver down from Alaska doing just that. He was young successful and wealthy, and doing exactly what he wanted in life.

I am sorry to hear that. Death is never an easy thing to handle. We all have to go sometime, though, and when the "Man upstairs" says it's your time, then it's your time. I think that true success is measured in how much we have helped people along the way.


-Goose

 

[Skyline]

Youth

If you have ever seen the movie Platoon, it portrays a young man who is swept up with a sense of "higher purpose" and adventure and joins the army. We all know how that ended up.

I think that aviation has similar temptations for some of us. You probably will not understand what I am talking about until you are a decade older. John Krakow's book "Into the Wild" does a good job of portraying how young men can be affected by this mind altering affliction to to dangerous and fruitless occupations. With age we slowly wake up from the spell and realize what was lost.

The first time I heard my bush pilot hero discribe his 20 year career in the bush as a waste of his life I was shocked. A few years later I began to understand what he was talking about. By then however it was too late to effectively make a jump to the airlines.

Since then all my peers in the bush (except for one) have either quit or been killed on the job. The ones who survived quit flying altogether and fill cubes in office buildings anonymously typing away. To embarrassed to tell their friends and co-workers of the stupid choices they made when they were young.

The only one left has been trying in vein to quit for years. He flys a Beaver for a lodge and thinks he will make it out this winter.

It's true the airlines are no fun at all, but they can provide a good living, health insurance and a family life.

Skyline

 

[Goose Egg]

If you have ever seen the movie Platoon, it portrays a young man who is swept up with a sense of "higher purpose"...

I'm not talking about joining the army. I am talking about serving others and helping them where they cannot help themselves, which is a noble endeavor at any age. Is that some sort of crime? I shouldn't have to debate this with you.

With age we slowly wake up from the spell and realize what was lost.

I am not so young as you think. Just because you were under some sort of spell, it doesn't mean that I am! With age I have come to realize that my life has purpose beyond obtaining posessions for myself. Do I count the time that has passed as wasted? No, it is time that I required to come to that realization, which I count as time well spent.

The first time I heard my bush pilot hero discribe his 20 year career in the bush as a waste of his life I was shocked. A few years later I began to understand what he was talking about. By then however it was too late to effectively make a jump to the airlines...Since then all my peers in the bush (except for one) have either quit or been killed on the job. The ones who survived quit flying altogether and fill cubes in office buildings anonymously typing away. To embarrassed to tell their friends and co-workers of the stupid choices they made when they were young. The only one left has been trying in vein to quit for years. He flys a Beaver for a lodge and thinks he will make it out this winter.

Skyline, I am not going to become a bush pilot.

It's true the airlines are no fun at all, but they can provide a good living, health insurance and a family life.

Family life? That's debateable. As for health insurance, that can be found in many non-airline flying jobs, including my current instructing job. As for a "good" living, I suppose it all depends on where your priorities lie. You couldn't live the life of luxury on the salary that I'll probably make, but the same could be said of 90% of all jobs flying or non.

So don't you worry about me getting "swept up." I'm as unswept as I've ever been.

-Goose

 

[Snakum]

Say what you want, but I don't see myself working in "construction" any time soon

Hey! I already paid you for that new outhouse and the slab has been poured! Get your ass back over here!

And remember ... it was a two-holer! I don't wanna go out there when you're done and see that we gotta stand in line to punch Mr. Grumpy. imp:


Minh

 

[BushwickBill]

Bill

That is part of my point. This isn't really a career anymore but more of a working hobby. Most of us will end up being furloughed and bounced around from company to company. By the time 20 years rolls around most of us would have been better off buying a house instead of getting our licenses. However if you are going to really go for it then you need to do whatever is in your power to get ahead. Buying a first job could save three or more years and that is priceless. Back in the early 90's Valuejet now called Airtran sold its pilot jobs for $50,000. We could easily see those days come back again.

Skyline

Not sure I agree with you. I do agree that the airline industry is rotten at the moment and will continue to change and evolve over the next 10 years. Corporate seems to be the way to go from my little corner of aviation. I feel that paying to get into the airline industry is a really bad idea. I would never do it.

For example a buddy of mine has spent close to 25k to get a 19$ an hour job working for ASA. He has less than 300 hours. His 25k bought him sim training and company SOP training. Very little of it was logable time. If he makes Captain in 3 years then it will work out for him. However, if the airline doesn't do well or he looses his job for any reason he is done. He doesn't have instructor ratings or time in the logbook and he will have no money to buy time.

I took about 7000$ and paid for instructor ratings. Yes I paid for my training but it was all logable time in airplanes. It didn't get me any job offers but i pounded the pavement and went looking. I have been flying over 100 hours a month since March. I'm flying a C208B and a CE525 part time all while getting paid. I never paid to sit in any of these airplanes. I only paid to fly with someone who helped me pass my practical test. If the bottom fell out of all of my jobs today I could find work instructing until I hit the 135 mins.

I feel this has put me in a better financial position and has also put me on a better career path.

Most importantly I feel that safety is not one of the considerations of the PFT program.

Acting as SIC, I have flown with a family of 5 on the CE 525. Three small children one of them a baby. This was at about 800 hours of TT in my logbook. When we stopped and grandpa was there waiting to see his grandkids the responsabilty of what I am doing really hit me. Hard.

Now take my buddy. 250 hours and 50 people in the back of an ERJ. His type specific training is better than mine but he has not earned a background in: teaching, sitting in different airplanes, screwing up during IMC approaches in a hand flying situation, telling students the wrong thing, engine failures ( have had one already) and a host of other things that happen to and occasionally kill the unprepared.

There is one BIG difference when I learned all that stuff I was either flying alone or with a trainee. And I'm NOT saying I'm done learning. I have only begun to learn about flying. And I'm not about to fly an airplane with 50 people in the back who dont know that I dont know my butt from a hole in the ground. Even if they pay me to fly it.

 

[Skyline]

BushwickBill

Bill,

I get what you are saying, but skill and ability have nothing to do with being an airline pilot. Most of those guys couldn't get a 150 started and a manual, hands on approach without automation help is becoming an emergency procedure. My point is that I you wish to be a young successful airline pilot then you need to take some risk. Buy a job or two and get ahead. Your friend my loose his money or he might get a few thousand hours and a type rating out of it. In three years he could be applying to SWA while you are still trying to break the 1500 hour mark. I don't know what your goals are but senority is everything, skills and good experience mean very little in the airlines. Networking and senority are all that matters. I wouldn't even call them pilots anymore. They are really more like a systems manager.

Skyline

 

[Skyline]

Goose !!

Family life? That's debateable. As for health insurance, that can be found in many non-airline flying jobs, including my current instructing job. As for a "good" living, I suppose it all depends on where your priorities lie. You couldn't live the life of luxury on the salary that I'll probably make, but the same could be said of 90% of all jobs flying or non.

-Goose

Well good luck to you. Most of what you said doesn't make any sense to me. I can't imagine what you have in mind to do as a career. It sounds more like a Kenyan school teacher for the peace corp. Pilots don't help people. Pilots are greedy selfish and immoral. We care about getting to the money and good life as fast as possible. You sound more like a missionary pilot. In any case nothing I have to say will be of benefit to you. Best of luck. I hope you get that Husky. I would like one too. Perhaps we could meet at a fly-in someday?

Skyline

Remember WWJD ?

 

[Metro752]

skyline is obviously new to posting on the internet because he uses punctuation and capital letters which is good i suppose but whats the point if you can read it who needs punctuation capital letters or evenspacesnobodydoes

Perhaps we should though?

 

[Goose Egg]

Most of what you said doesn't make any sense to me...Pilots are greedy selfish and immoral. We care about getting to the money and good life as fast as possible.

Yeah, you're all dirtbags. Congrats.

I can't imagine what you have in mind to do as a career.

I have been intentionally vauge, and that is becuase I have some definite goals in mind, but I'm still not quite sure how I am going to go about achieving them. When I have more information and a course of action, I will be more forthcoming.

It sounds more like a Kenyan school teacher for the peace corp... You sound more like a missionary pilot.

Guess again. For the zillionth time, I'm not going to be a bush pilot.

I hope you get that Husky.

Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Who knows. I'd really rather have my own glider anyway. I just thought the Husky thing was cool as an avatar.

-Goose

 

[Skyline]

I am sorry

I am sorry. I am kind of a dork I guess. My college letter writing class just will not leave me. I will try todobetter.


Skyline

 

[Skyline]

Kids these days

Man I just don't get you guys. I understand that since 9-11 everyone who has been in flight school since realizes that most will not make it to the big money. However there is no need to become monks. You guys are all braced to be living in boxes and almost feel ashamed to try and make a good life for your selves. There seems to be a prevailing sense of martyrship going around. It is no fun to be poor when you are in your 30's. You have to get out there in your 20's with a definite sense of purpose about getting that good airline job. By the time you start to wake up at 28 it is too late.

Skyline

 

[b757driver]

Interesting philosophies and arguments here. For what it's worth, I have NEVER paid for a type rating, training program or an aviation job and I have no regrets. Why? Because in this business there are NO GUARANTEES!! Wake up folks, have you heard how well the top 5 are doing? How the salaries are, not to mention the benefits? Oh and if that were not enough, how many are on the street, again. This is not rocket science but a FACT of life in the US airline/aviation industry. Expect it. There is NO such thing as a stable company with maybe the sole exception of SWA. But even they are not infallible.
My point is why bother to bankrupt yourself when there are no guarantees that you will even have a job in 6 months, 2 years or whatever? How are you going to pay off your loans then? Take risks by all means but even the most savvy investment analyst will want to do his homework carefully before making a decision.
The best story I can relate from personal experience is that once I had a number of ATPs(including some foreign/ICAO ones with a B737 rating on them) but not on my FAA ATP (long story for another time). Also had hard time on type. This did not open any doors, so I thought long and hard about buying a 737 type locally. I finally decided not to because I did not believe by doing so it would enhance my resume. Instead, I spent the money on all my FAA Instructors tickets and then found a job instructing (always have something to fall back onto preferably something you are good at and enjoy).
Years later the government bought me a 737 type through the WIA program when I was laid off by my then Part 121 employer. And I'm real glad I did not spend the money getting the type. It would have made NO DIFFERENCE in even getting an interview, never mind a job! It is so easy to get sucked up into this whirlwind of competition and must have this and must have that edge. I almost went with the herd but the little voice on my shoulder war right all along and I leave you with that thought: if it does not feel right, if you are unsure - even a little bit, and particularly if you don't have it in writing that they will DEFINITELY offer you a job on condition of getting a type or doing their PFT, then you are better off without it. Go do something else. You will feel a whole lot better, not to mention no hole burnt in your pocket.
If on the other hand, you KNOW it's going to work for you and you have the ready dough, then go for it. It's kind of like gambling. You got to know the strategy of the game and you have to have a money management strategy also. You put aside what you can comfortably afford to lose and hey, if you hit the jackpot, great but if you don't, you won't lose your shirt either. Try it in Vegas sometime!!

 

[Skyline]

Pft

b757driver,

My point exactly. All the people who I have known who by hook or by crook got into the left seat of something with turbine engines while they were still very young got on with UAL, UPS AA or other great jobs. They lied, cheated or bought their way in, but they are sitting there at good US companies senior enough to avoid furloughs. I took the hard road and will never be able to get it back. As I am sure you understand how crappy it is to be behind the power curve in this career. Like I have mentioned before I think that in the end we all pay. Some with wasted years of their lives and some with cash. Paying with cash is much much cheaper. I feel as though I paid highly at N7. If you recall they were trying to install a training contract of 50K but were stopped by the state of NV. If someone approached you with an offer of a position at your first choice airline and all you had to do was to pay 30K, would you do it? The opportunity to move home and to earn a good living at the job of your chioce? I would do it man !!! There is no room for an EGO or for high moral standards in this career.

Skyline

 

[BushwickBill]

Skyline,

Not sure if I follow you on the whole systems manager point. I watched a Skywest CRJ land with no flaps at bakersfield when I was delivering a new 182. I doubt those guys were on auto fly. I'm also confident that there was some serious decision making going on between the crew. I'm sure those guys were working pretty hard and if I had been a passenger I would have been praying there were no PFT types at the controls. I feel strongly that the decision making skills you earn through experience are what makes a good pilot, and you cant buy that. Personally I feel that PFT will result in serious problems for safety at some point.

 

[Skyline]

No Flaps

B Bill,

All that stuff is in the manual. There are no decisions to make. Just follow the directions and call MX cointrol if you have any questions. No problems. It is a proceedure that is practaced in the sim every few years. All of that stuff is automated and drilled in practice. The problems come when they don't follow the directions and something bad happens like pinnacle.


Skyline

 

[Snakum]

Pilots are greedy selfish and immoral

Well ... you got us there.

You guys are all braced to be living in boxes and almost feel ashamed to try and make a good life for your selves. There seems to be a prevailing sense of martyrship going around. It is no fun to be poor when you are in your 30's.

Now you've done it! You're actually making sense. We'll have none of that here, Mister. Please cease immediately.

Minh