Pay at ASA is really moving backwards!

[Tomct]

:angryfireI'm ready man....Burn this place DOWN!!! Neither Delta or Skywst could handle us parking 160 plus jets. I say SHUT ER DOWN!!!!

 

[Bizjet]

My latest $500 ALPA mag said that in 1978 Northwest pilots struck when the pilots walked to protest management's "bad faith negotiating" What the FUKK DO YOU CALL THE LAST 4 YEARS AT ASA? ALPA has NO balls anymore.

The dumbest thing I have ever heard is that we will not have ANY more scheduled meetings with the mediator until the company moves significantly.

We can not be released to self help until the arbitrator meets again and determines that we should be released (from what I understand)

Soooo it seems the company can just drag this out for 4 MORE years if they want to. Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong!

 

[Bizjet]

Yes I DO remember that management can resume negotiations at any time and that the ball is in their court, that is my point. WHY SHOULD THEY?

If SkW inc. is calling the shots, I don't see why they would want to settle this EVER. Maybe all part of the plan to let us die on the vine. It makes me nervous that SKW is training 500 pilots this year.

We just sit in committee, read minutes, vote no confidence, draft a resolution condemning race to the bottom negotiating, blah, blah, blah. ALPA has lost its action-taking ability. This looks like "bad-faith bargaining to me!! Anyone else???

So when do you want to organize a wildcat strike. How about a massive sick out. Maybe alll resign on the same day? How about a maintenance write up on every aircraft even if there is nothing wrong with the A/C.

Just to let you know all of the previously mentioned actions will have the individuals in front of a Federal Judge and the Union facing fines for damages until the illegal job action is over. The Railway Labor Act is not designed to assist labor but to keep the airline flying until there is a release by the NMB. Why not try to get control of your emotions and chill out. The fact that these negotiations have lasted 4 years is because Delta ordered ASA to slow the negotiations as long as possible. When a release is granted you will get a decent T/A unless others like you have encouraged management to dig in deeper because they like you are panicking. Just do your job and nothing else. This company is imploding before your very eyes. Delta will eventually give Uncle Jerry a call and he will give BL the order to get er done. If you think the MEC is doing nothing then spend a couple of your off days volunteering to DO NOTHING at the ALPA office. While you are there you probably shouldn't boast that you were the big mouth talking about how the MEC just "sits in committee, read minutes, vote no confidence, draft a resolution condemning race to the bottom negotiating, blah, blah, blah. ALPA has lost its action-taking ability". So stop :crying: in your :beer: and redirect your :angryfire at the worst management in the airline industry.

 

[COOPERVANE]

How am I wrong? Not trying to be a smarta$$ Just looking for info

 

[COOPERVANE]

I am angry. I worked for a long time in the the business world before I started flying. ASA on a daily basis wastes more money than 10 captain's salaries for a year and we ALL see it. How can management be so incompetent? They would never last in any other sector.

Why in 1978 can an airline strike because of bad faith bargaining and now we are tied down with RLA "due process"

 

[rightseatjocky]

LoL melit, You're so right. It sure gets old. I am a 4 year fo at ASA and I love it here. They want to shut the airline down, well some of us like it here. It is mostly the Atlanta crews that can't stand it. They had the chance to come to Salt Lake and love the flying too.

 

[gnx99]

If you can buy a house near you for $159,000, consider yourself lucky

 

[ASADriver]

I heard there are plans to picket SKYW headquarters in St. George soon.

Hah! Hah! that's a good one. Do you know where SGU is? They won't be impressed!

 

[ASADriver]

From ASAContract.com

Q) There are rumors circulating about pilot negotiations and I don’t know who’s telling the truth. Did the company make an offer in a private meeting with the union recently and then rescind it the next day?

A) There have been a number of questions and comments similar to this and, yes, the rumor mill seems to be working overtime. I’ll try to address this as best I can, given the delicate line I must walk because the meetings were supposed to be confidential. But, let me start by saying the company never rescinded anything that we had discussed.

…Thus, during a meeting on other issues between company representatives and some of the ASA ALPA MEC senior leaders, we explored whether frank, off-the-record meetings (not part of the formal negotiations process) might lead to an agreement and we discussed in general the framework of what a different deal might look like.

We received what I thought was a favorable response and were encouraged to continue the off-the-record discussions and provide more specifics with a larger group of ASA ALPA representatives. In a second meeting recently we did just that, laying out details of the kind of deal we thought would meet the needs of the company and our pilots.

The response from ALPA was not consistent with what we had received during the previous meeting. We simply were told the items discussed did not meet ALPA’s expectations and we were given no indication that further discussions at that time would prove fruitful. We have tried to maintain the confidentiality of the meetings and the specifics of what was discussed, but the recent rumor mill mischaracterizations of the meetings and the outright distortions of some aspects make that very difficult.

I want to be very clear on one thing -- this is very important because of the inaccurate information being shared in the rumor mill -- and that is that we never rescinded our offer. We were fully prepared – and still would be – to stand by the kind of agreement we discussed.

Somebody is not telling the on this deal and ALPA isn't looking that great right now. It's tx to stop playing the games and get this done.

I think the company is telling the truth here. Remember the negotiating committee members were saying that the offer was turned down because of preferential bidding. It wasn't until people started question ALPA that they came up with the story that management pulled the offer off the table. Sounds like ALPA isn't telling the whole truth.

 

[ASADriver]

Very true. Management's "contract" website is purely propaganda. If management is serious, call the mediator and make the offer there.

Hoser

And alpa doesn't put out propaganda? Both sides put out propaganda.

 

[ASADriver]

LoL melit, You're so right. It sure gets old. I am a 4 year fo at ASA and I love it here. They want to shut the airline down, well some of us like it here. It is mostly the Atlanta crews that can't stand it. They had the chance to come to Salt Lake and love the flying too.

Actually, there are alot of us in ATL that like it here also. Don't let the disgruntled few speak for all of us.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

I think the company is telling the truth here. Remember the negotiating committee members were saying that the offer was turned down because of preferential bidding. It wasn't until people started question ALPA that they came up with the story that management pulled the offer off the table. Sounds like ALPA isn't telling the whole truth.

Thanks, Chuck. Appreciate your input. Go back to your do nothing job in your padded office now, please. Oh!! By the way... since when did you become the uniform nazi?????? I took it from R.C. in DFW gladly, mainly because I HIGHLY respect the man... You, however, garner absolutely no respect whatsoever you ineffectual waste of a mangement position (not to mention turncoat.... how many more settlement agreements do you want to reinterpret as a chief pilot when you were the union rep who affixed your signature to them....)

Management hacks can be management hacks all they want... I could care less.... The switching sides and the lack of integrity is what I have a problem with. Switching teams for your own personal benefit is a dead end road, as you will have to come back to the line sooner or later. Here's to you Chuck... You're truly a man made in Nelson D.'s image. Of course, if you're not man enough to come back to the line and wallow in your own crap, I have an Ultralight I'd love to sell you........

 

[atrdriver]

I think the company is telling the truth here. Remember the negotiating committee members were saying that the offer was turned down because of preferential bidding. It wasn't until people started question ALPA that they came up with the story that management pulled the offer off the table. Sounds like ALPA isn't telling the whole truth.

I was told the day after the meeting that the company had pulled their previous "offer". That was before I was told about PBS. Maybe you aren't talking to the right people.

 

[Bizjet]

I think the company is telling the truth here. Remember the negotiating committee members were saying that the offer was turned down because of preferential bidding. It wasn't until people started question ALPA that they came up with the story that management pulled the offer off the table. Sounds like ALPA isn't telling the whole truth.

You need to get Brian's and Charlie's shoes shined before you get in trouble there Sport. You job is never safe when you want to be loved by management. It is always management saying I don't care what you did for me yesterday what are you going to do today. They also don't like pilots and if you were a little brighter you would know that also includes little hand puppets like yourself. Maybe you should come to the next LEC meeting and explain your belief that your elected union leaders are liars and the benevolent ASA management is the pilots best friend and there source of the truth. You are a management pawn because no pilot who has been here over 6 months would want to try and sell the virtues of this management to our pilots.

 

[g-code]

:d

How am I wrong? Not trying to be a smarta$$ Just looking for info

I dont know, but you REALLY need to change that avatar. Im pitching a tent every time I hop on FI now.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

I was told the day after the meeting that the company had pulled their previous "offer". That was before I was told about PBS. Maybe you aren't talking to the right people.

OK, you were told by ALPA the offer/supposal was pulled/rescinded the next day while the company says "NO" the supposal is still on the table unchanged. What is the problem with this picture? If ALPA was so optimistic about the supposal and the company says it is still on the table, WORK IT OUT.

Kill the spin, stop the propoganda and get it done

 

["GO AROUND"]

A POS offer on the table is still a POS offer on the table.

Ever question why managment wanted the meetings to be so confidential? No accountability to the pilots or the NMB, that's why. So they can spin it just like they have. Their word against the union.

The union has never asked for an informal meeting to be confidential.

 

[atrdriver]

OK, you were told by ALPA the offer/supposal was pulled/rescinded the next day while the company says "NO" the supposal is still on the table unchanged. What is the problem with this picture? If ALPA was so optimistic about the supposal and the company says it is still on the table, WORK IT OUT.

Kill the spin, stop the propoganda and get it done

What is wrong with this "picture" is that the company is attempting to split the pilot group by telling half truths, and sometimes outright lies. They don't want the NMB involved if they can help it because then they can't put out a "supposal" and retract it whenever they want. Yes, I would like to get this thing done. But, I am not willing to take a sub par contract, for the next 8 years, just to get it done.

And you never answered. If the company was in fact telling the truth in all this, why will the management negotiators not go into the crew lounge when members of our CNC are there? Don't you think that if the company were really on the up-and-up they would LOVE to debate the CNC in front of the pilot group?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

If the company was in fact telling the truth in all this, why will the management negotiators not go into the crew lounge when members of our CNC are there?

Long answer short, the crew lounge is no place to negotiate a contract. The problem I have with ALPA is that I shouldn't have to dig up Waldo or chase down the secret squirl to get any info about what is going on. When you do find somebody, does that person actually have credible info or is it the usual ALPA/personnal spin.

I don't trust ALPA as far as I could throw the whole lot and I don't trust BL and CT any more/less. At least the company did post a response to the question. I had to find out about this supposal, not from ALPA but from flightinfo.com. I pay dues to these people to get me a FAIR contract and keep me informed. Part A - maybe Part B - shaky at best.

 

[Medeco]

Long answer short, the crew lounge is no place to negotiate a contract. The problem I have with ALPA is that I shouldn't have to dig up Waldo or chase down the secret squirl to get any info about what is going on. When you do find somebody, does that person actually have credible info or is it the usual ALPA/personnal spin.

I don't trust ALPA as far as I could throw the whole lot and I don't trust BL and CT any more/less. At least the company did post a response to the question. I had to find out about this supposal, not from ALPA but from flightinfo.com. I pay dues to these people to get me a FAIR contract and keep me informed. Part A - maybe Part B - shaky at best.

What would your solution be to getting the info if you dont like P2P or calling your reps.

They send us emails.

They give official updates on negotiations

They visit the crew lounge on a regular basis to answer questions.


If you dont trust managment like you stated, then your only hope is the union that you are a member of.

If you think things should be different come up with a well thought out plan and present your ideas at a union meeting. You may be met with opposition, but if you present yourself and your argument in diplomatic professional way then you will be respected and people may begin to listen.

If you dont like someone on the union MEC or LEC, then get involved and run for the position to get elected.

If all you can do is find whats wrong, and offer no solutions to make it better, all the while never trying to get involved with the leadership positions of the union, then your just helping the management that you dont trust.

Our union is doing the best they can in my opinion, they are not perfect, they have made tactical mistakes, but sideline quarter backing is not the solution, and it certainly isnt going to help ASA pilots get the contract the want.

When we get a contract, and the pilot group affirms it, are you going to tell management that you waive your rights to the improvements and prefer to keep working under the old agreement? No, your going to enjoy the improvements that your CNC worked hard to get.

You are the union, if you dont like how things are being done then step up and show how you can do it better.

Otherwise.....


Medeco

 

[atlcrjdriver]

What would your solution be to getting the info if you dont like P2P or calling your reps.

They send us emails.

They give official updates on negotiations

They visit the crew lounge on a regular basis to answer questions.

I don't hang out in the crew lounge, have much better things to do. When I am in there I've seen ALPA once. The last good informative e-mail from them was about the current open items. Everything after has been a waste if good ink.

Complaint: I shouldn't have to find out about my contract negotiations on some message board.

Resolution: Send me INFORMATIVE information via e-mail. i.e.- Skd meetings formal/informal progress/regress proposals/supposals made

 

[John Pennekamp]

Long answer short, the crew lounge is no place to negotiate a contract. The problem I have with ALPA is that I shouldn't have to dig up Waldo or chase down the secret squirl to get any info about what is going on. When you do find somebody, does that person actually have credible info or is it the usual ALPA/personnal spin.

I don't trust ALPA as far as I could throw the whole lot and I don't trust BL and CT any more/less. At least the company did post a response to the question. I had to find out about this supposal, not from ALPA but from flightinfo.com. I pay dues to these people to get me a FAIR contract and keep me informed. Part A - maybe Part B - shaky at best.

You seem to know an awful lot about management's strategy to be a line pilot. I think you're another management shill GO rat trying to swing the pilots favor against the union. Your comments need to be framed in that context.

Tell the truth. Are you in any way involved with management or are you a line pilot? I'm betting you're a chief pilot.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Any of y'all that want to believe Lyin' Brian and Chuckie Tutt, William Dudley, Chuck V and Carl and Kim's rantings on Flightinfo, then go right ahead. ALPA Sucks! Let's all take concessions! Whatever! You are in a very slim minority, and your vote didn't count.

If you believe this crap you are a bunch of weak minded fools who gave up 4 years of pay for NOTHING. Grow a pair and fight for what you're worth! Quit whining how the union screwed you and you'd have had an 18 month upgrade if only that union settled 3.5 years ago. Waaah! Quit and go to Mesa or Republic/Scuttle America/Shaniqua.

Enough is Enough!

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

try again...

I pay dues to these people to get me a FAIR contract and keep me informed. Part A - maybe Part B - shaky at best.

NO, this is not correct on the latter part. You do not pay them to keep you informed of every last detail of the negotiating process. You pay them to REPRESENT your best interests at the bargaining table. If you don't like the folks representing you, then you should work to change the MEC and/or negotiating committee.

Don't lose faith in your negotiating committee or MEC in this battle. That is EXACTLY what management wants you to do. They want you to start questioning the NC's integrity and therefore erode the NC's support and bargaining power. Stay united.

The NC will communicate to the best of their ability and let you know what THEY think you REALLY need to know. They are the representatives and they make those decisions - not you. People not involved with the negotiations ALWAYS complain that they don't get enough info about the details. Don't take the bait. Stay united - and talk to your P2P's. They will let you know what they can.

I hope you guys get a good and fair contract.
Spiff

 

[601Pilot]

LoL melit, You're so right. It sure gets old. I am a 4 year fo at ASA and I love it here. They want to shut the airline down, well some of us like it here. It is mostly the Atlanta crews that can't stand it. They had the chance to come to Salt Lake and love the flying too.

Well, now you will get your chance to come to Atlanta to have some fun with the rest of us!

 

[601Pilot]

Actually, there are alot of us in ATL that like it here also. Don't let the disgruntled few speak for all of us.

Ha! Don't let the happy few make you think there are just a small disgruntled group. About 80% of the people here are disgruntled if my unofficial poll is correct.

 

[atrdriver]

Long answer short, the crew lounge is no place to negotiate a contract. The problem I have with ALPA is that I shouldn't have to dig up Waldo or chase down the secret squirl to get any info about what is going on. When you do find somebody, does that person actually have credible info or is it the usual ALPA/personnal spin.

I didn't say it was the place to negotiate the contract, did I? But the CNC would be happy to engage the management team in front of the pilots. The company isn't interested in doing so. What does that tell you? Maybe that the information that the company is putting out isn't really all that accurate? The CNC has nothing to hide, and they are willing to talk to the company in front of the pilots. The company isn't willing to do that, and that tells me they ARE hiding something.

 

["GO AROUND"]

atlcrjdriver,

As a P2P, I can tell you that the MEC has confirmed that last week the company finally presented a counter proposal to the NMB. Whether it is enough to close the gap to get the NMB to bring us back to the table is to be seen.

Is that good enough info for ya?

 

[Medeco]

I don't hang out in the crew lounge, have much better things to do. When I am in there I've seen ALPA once. The last good informative e-mail from them was about the current open items. Everything after has been a waste if good ink.

Complaint: I shouldn't have to find out about my contract negotiations on some message board.

Resolution: Send me INFORMATIVE information via e-mail. i.e.- Skd meetings formal/informal progress/regress proposals/supposals made

I dont hang out either, but I do have an occasion when i have nothing to do but wait for an aircraft or departure time. Other than commuters I dont think many do hang out.

You didnt answer/address the most important part of my previous post.

Why dont you get involved and help instead? If you can do it better then do so, so we can all reap the benefits of your wisdom.

The union will never be perfect or please everyones needs. But it beats not having one, when the outcome is to fly a 90 seat aircraft for the going rate of a 50 seat aircraft, just to name one reason.

Medeco

 

[~~~^~~~]

ATLCRJ Driver -

Our MEC is more straightforward and honest than most. In negotiations little is written because in the give and take, back and forth - there are proposals and counters that can be taken out of contexct by the masses and then relied on to form unrealistic expectations.

I think all the ranting about "management lies" is a little over the top. For one, Management has to react to a changing business environment - as a reult what they say one day may not hold up from a business standpoint the next day.

But we have plenty of reason to be angry at management without resorting to half truths. For one, I think we have a right to be angry about our miserable on time performance which destroys our personal schedules, our sleep, and fails our passengers. Management's task is to manage this airline and they do an awful job. We also have every right to be furious about this whipsaw game that Jerry Atkin and SkyWest are playing. (Here, the unfortunate truth is that Jerry Atkin came to our crew lounge and told us the truth and now it is happening)

But ASA management and SlyWest are resourceful, just like we are. They might find a way to make more money (which requires more pilots) which slows down their plan to transfer assets to SkyWest and destroy ALPA on the ASA/SkyWest property. These aren't lies, they are reprieves.

I don't think etiher side is lying. Calling someone a "liar" is considered fighting words. But there is no doubt that SkyWest management is out to destroy ALPA at ASA and they could care less about the line employees that make this place function. We are no more than a necessary evil to be disdainfully tolerated until we can be killed off one by one with a fresh faced "guppy killer" with a Flight School stickers all over his 1986 Honda Civic.

And that is why we have a union. To try to protect our jobs, or safety and quality of life.

I'm mad, but I got mad when Jerry Atkin sat in our crew room and told me our flying was going to be transferred. He did not lie, but I think he has a very low opinion of ASA pilots and ALPA.

~~~^~~~