Pay at ASA is really moving backwards!

[sweptback]

Coopervane, 79%, and atlcrjdriver,

It's easy to get impatient and think that nothing is happening. Management wanted to use the informal sessions to figure out what we would settle for, then turn around and make an offer for 10% less to the mediator. Once ALPA saw the tricks that management was trying to play, they told management that the next meetings would have to be with a mediator, where every proposal would be binding and there would be no way to get screwed.

You have to remember that at any time management can get the ball rolling by calling the mediator and saying that they would like to offer us something. Management has all of ALPA's proposals and it's their turn to make a move. If they are concerned about their ability to bid on codeshares/attract new flying, then they have nobody to blame but themselves for not getting this contract done.

 

[HoserASA]

You have to remember that at any time management can get the ball rolling by calling the mediator and saying that they would like to offer us something.

Very true. Management's "contract" website is purely propaganda. If management is serious, call the mediator and make the offer there.

Hoser

 

[atrdriver]

Somebody is not telling the on this deal and ALPA isn't looking that great right now. It's tx to stop playing the games and get this done.

So someone isn't telling the truth, and you assume that it is ALPA? How many lies has management told over the past 4 years? How many times has management violated our current contract over the past 4 years? But you believe that they are telling the truth on this? Remember when one of our current management said that they would not honor our current PWA, but they they would then next one? You go right ahead and believe management's crap. I don't believe everything that ALPA says, but I trust that they at least have my best interest in mind, and I have zero confidence that the company even knows what the best interests of the employees are.

Not to mention, if management was really on the level here, why do they refuse to go into the crew lounge when members of the CNC are there? If they were really telling the truth it sure seems like they would welcome the chance to debate the CNC in front of the pilots.

 

[Bizjet]

So ATLCRJDRIVER who do you believe? If you believe the company I can understand why you are clipping and pasting for them. If not what is your point!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yep. And our MEC doesnt seem to be too motivated or too aggressive to move this along. They sure are aggressive when asking for rates and retirement, but we have nothing to back it up. In the mean time, the status quo helps nobody, as management can't bid on anything and we just stagnante. Lets move ahead or die. Sitting still does nothing!

I agree it seems rates and retirement are the only things the CNC wants to talk about. But we can change the topic of discussions when we let them know that our issues are growth, scope, merger and fragmentation.

Pilots tell me they are avoiding the Wilson Center's polling because they don't want to waste 45 minutes of their time - HOW STUPID! This is how you communicate effectively to your representatives. Also speak openly when you see them. A divergent opinion is not going to get you run out of ALPA, support these good folks and feel free to speak your mind - they are your representatives.

I disagree that management is paralyzed in its attempt to get new business based on contract uncertainty. We all know the next contract will be close to current book with quality of life improvements. We all also know that ASA and SkyWest will eventually be within spitting distance on contractual terms. If SkyWest doesn't hand over at least what ASA gets, eventually the SkyWest pilots will get tired of the double standard (once the new wears off the Captain's wings) and they will demand parity and management will give it to them or face a representational vote.

Delta does not know the cost of gas, but they still buy tickets. ASA Management saying we can't bid on flying is like me saying I don't know if I can go to work because of the cost of my Medical. If you work the numbers, SkyWest had nearly 3Bn in revenue yearly, if ALPA and management are 4 million apart then we are talking .0013 of revenue. Take my income divided by the cost of my medicals and you have .009 of my yearly revenue.

So my medical costs me nearly 7 times what the difference is between ALPA and SkyWest management.

Aren't there stockholders somewhere who's fiduciary interests have to be watched out for? The Comair pilots were roughly $1,600 apart over the life of the contract when they walked. The gross cost to Delta was stated at $660,000,000, or over $330,000 per striking pilot!

When will airlines (outside of SouthWest) learn that treating employees like the enemy is not a recipie for success.

SkyWest has gone rapidly from having an excellent reputation to being a union buster in the pattern of Lorenzo. They have adopted Delta's management philosophy of whipsaw and dissention amongst employees - why follow Delta management on anything?

Obviously SkyWest is SkyWest's preferred airline and statements to the FAA about shrinking ASA out of existence appear to be more than idle gossip. SkyWest has two choices, grow ASA, or replace it. Stagnation results in more senior (expensive) crews and older (more expensive) airplanes. Stagnation will surely result in death of this airline. The alternative, growth, would reduce costs and have an incredible effect on employee morale (a job with a future ). SkyWest is making their choice and they were not born yesturday. Their actions have been carefully crafted and I don't think our contract will make a bit of difference. Our role is only to set the bar for SkyWest and other airline's employee groups to follow. Our fate is already sealed no matter what we do.

 

[goahead]

I'm sick of both sides. They both are like the ATL ramp, nothing ever gets finished, nothing. I don't give a shi_t what kind of hold out the Company and ALPA are playing but why don't they go to the Ramada in JAN stay there for one week without any cell phones, computers, porn mags, and negotiate from 7-7 until they get this shi_t figured out. And for god's sake only send the people that can make the decisions themselves. Get on it!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

ehh, err, that is called "Mediation" which they were doing for several years now. The problem is we have no scope to prevent transfer of our flying, no merger language to give us jobs and the manager at the meditation cost the company less than settling the contract would.

If the Feds made a signal that they would release us into self help, the contract would be settled within 24 hours.

It seemed like the last contract would never get done. Delta made a phone call and the "impossible" was finished in a day and a half.

 

[Bizjet]

I'm sick of both sides. They both are like the ATL ramp, nothing ever gets finished, nothing. I don't give a shi_t what kind of hold out the Company and ALPA are playing but why don't they go to the Ramada in JAN stay there for one week without any cell phones, computers, porn mags, and negotiate from 7-7 until they get this shi_t figured out. And for god's sake only send the people that can make the decisions themselves. Get on it!!!

So go and volunteer your time to work for the Union. You really don't have a clue now and after a couple of weeks assisting you will start to have a hint of the clue. You are correct it that the decision makers need to be at the table. So far ALPA has never requested to recess negotiations to go back and talk with the decision makers since they are the decision makers. The company has stopped negotiations two times. One time lasted close to a month. Wake UP!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bizjet: Actually ALPA National did keep our representatives away from the "decision makers" at Delta. If we had scope and a SLOA with Delta we would not be having these probelms today.

We do need to insist that SkyWest management be seated at the table. As far as I know, we have not made that request. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[COOPERVANE]

You have to remember that at any time management can get the ball rolling by calling the mediator and saying that they would like to offer us something. Management has all of ALPA's proposals and it's their turn to make a move. If they are concerned about their ability to bid on codeshares/attract new flying, then they have nobody to blame but themselves for not getting this contract done.

Yes I DO remember that management can resume negotiations at any time and that the ball is in their court, that is my point. WHY SHOULD THEY?

If SkW inc. is calling the shots, I don't see why they would want to settle this EVER. Maybe all part of the plan to let us die on the vine. It makes me nervous that SKW is training 500 pilots this year.

We just sit in committee, read minutes, vote no confidence, draft a resolution condemning race to the bottom negotiating, blah, blah, blah. ALPA has lost its action-taking ability. This looks like "bad-faith bargaining to me!! Anyone else???

 

[Tomct]

:angryfireI'm ready man....Burn this place DOWN!!! Neither Delta or Skywst could handle us parking 160 plus jets. I say SHUT ER DOWN!!!!

 

[Bizjet]

My latest $500 ALPA mag said that in 1978 Northwest pilots struck when the pilots walked to protest management's "bad faith negotiating" What the FUKK DO YOU CALL THE LAST 4 YEARS AT ASA? ALPA has NO balls anymore.

The dumbest thing I have ever heard is that we will not have ANY more scheduled meetings with the mediator until the company moves significantly.

We can not be released to self help until the arbitrator meets again and determines that we should be released (from what I understand)

Soooo it seems the company can just drag this out for 4 MORE years if they want to. Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong!

 

[Bizjet]

Yes I DO remember that management can resume negotiations at any time and that the ball is in their court, that is my point. WHY SHOULD THEY?

If SkW inc. is calling the shots, I don't see why they would want to settle this EVER. Maybe all part of the plan to let us die on the vine. It makes me nervous that SKW is training 500 pilots this year.

We just sit in committee, read minutes, vote no confidence, draft a resolution condemning race to the bottom negotiating, blah, blah, blah. ALPA has lost its action-taking ability. This looks like "bad-faith bargaining to me!! Anyone else???

So when do you want to organize a wildcat strike. How about a massive sick out. Maybe alll resign on the same day? How about a maintenance write up on every aircraft even if there is nothing wrong with the A/C.

Just to let you know all of the previously mentioned actions will have the individuals in front of a Federal Judge and the Union facing fines for damages until the illegal job action is over. The Railway Labor Act is not designed to assist labor but to keep the airline flying until there is a release by the NMB. Why not try to get control of your emotions and chill out. The fact that these negotiations have lasted 4 years is because Delta ordered ASA to slow the negotiations as long as possible. When a release is granted you will get a decent T/A unless others like you have encouraged management to dig in deeper because they like you are panicking. Just do your job and nothing else. This company is imploding before your very eyes. Delta will eventually give Uncle Jerry a call and he will give BL the order to get er done. If you think the MEC is doing nothing then spend a couple of your off days volunteering to DO NOTHING at the ALPA office. While you are there you probably shouldn't boast that you were the big mouth talking about how the MEC just "sits in committee, read minutes, vote no confidence, draft a resolution condemning race to the bottom negotiating, blah, blah, blah. ALPA has lost its action-taking ability". So stop :crying: in your :beer: and redirect your :angryfire at the worst management in the airline industry.

 

[COOPERVANE]

How am I wrong? Not trying to be a smarta$$ Just looking for info

 

[COOPERVANE]

I am angry. I worked for a long time in the the business world before I started flying. ASA on a daily basis wastes more money than 10 captain's salaries for a year and we ALL see it. How can management be so incompetent? They would never last in any other sector.

Why in 1978 can an airline strike because of bad faith bargaining and now we are tied down with RLA "due process"

 

[rightseatjocky]

LoL melit, You're so right. It sure gets old. I am a 4 year fo at ASA and I love it here. They want to shut the airline down, well some of us like it here. It is mostly the Atlanta crews that can't stand it. They had the chance to come to Salt Lake and love the flying too.

 

[gnx99]

If you can buy a house near you for $159,000, consider yourself lucky

 

[ASADriver]

I heard there are plans to picket SKYW headquarters in St. George soon.

Hah! Hah! that's a good one. Do you know where SGU is? They won't be impressed!

 

[ASADriver]

From ASAContract.com

Q) There are rumors circulating about pilot negotiations and I don’t know who’s telling the truth. Did the company make an offer in a private meeting with the union recently and then rescind it the next day?

A) There have been a number of questions and comments similar to this and, yes, the rumor mill seems to be working overtime. I’ll try to address this as best I can, given the delicate line I must walk because the meetings were supposed to be confidential. But, let me start by saying the company never rescinded anything that we had discussed.

…Thus, during a meeting on other issues between company representatives and some of the ASA ALPA MEC senior leaders, we explored whether frank, off-the-record meetings (not part of the formal negotiations process) might lead to an agreement and we discussed in general the framework of what a different deal might look like.

We received what I thought was a favorable response and were encouraged to continue the off-the-record discussions and provide more specifics with a larger group of ASA ALPA representatives. In a second meeting recently we did just that, laying out details of the kind of deal we thought would meet the needs of the company and our pilots.

The response from ALPA was not consistent with what we had received during the previous meeting. We simply were told the items discussed did not meet ALPA’s expectations and we were given no indication that further discussions at that time would prove fruitful. We have tried to maintain the confidentiality of the meetings and the specifics of what was discussed, but the recent rumor mill mischaracterizations of the meetings and the outright distortions of some aspects make that very difficult.

I want to be very clear on one thing -- this is very important because of the inaccurate information being shared in the rumor mill -- and that is that we never rescinded our offer. We were fully prepared – and still would be – to stand by the kind of agreement we discussed.

Somebody is not telling the on this deal and ALPA isn't looking that great right now. It's tx to stop playing the games and get this done.

I think the company is telling the truth here. Remember the negotiating committee members were saying that the offer was turned down because of preferential bidding. It wasn't until people started question ALPA that they came up with the story that management pulled the offer off the table. Sounds like ALPA isn't telling the whole truth.

 

[ASADriver]

Very true. Management's "contract" website is purely propaganda. If management is serious, call the mediator and make the offer there.

Hoser

And alpa doesn't put out propaganda? Both sides put out propaganda.