PAX Helps Land CO 757?!?

[Benhuntn]

Blackjet and SKC you are both correct....and that's all I am going to say about that.

 

[puddlejumper101]

emergency authority...that's all I have to say. Kudos to the CAL pilot. This whole security thing might be valid...except trying to save the Captain from dying is worth the risk. Plus do you all think in a post 9/11 world that 200 people would let anyone even attempt to hijack an airplane??? NOT. My best post 9/11 weapon is not guns, LEOs, FFDOs, Air Marshalls, or TSA...it's the mob of people that are sitting in the back.

 

[AKAAB]

emergency authority...that's all I have to say. Kudos to the CAL pilot. This whole security thing might be valid...except trying to save the Captain from dying is worth the risk. Plus do you all think in a post 9/11 world that 200 people would let anyone even attempt to hijack an airplane??? NOT. My best post 9/11 weapon is not guns, LEOs, FFDOs, Air Marshalls, or TSA...it's the mob of people that are sitting in the back.

The passengers could be completely unaware anything was going on until too late. I doubt the door was left open and if a civilian "volunteer" gets into the cockpit, he can pick his time to act. This is one of the very scenarios I predicted right after 9/11. Breaking into the cockpit is no longer an option, but if you can get in with a fake ID or somehow get invited to help out in an emergency, you've effectively conned the entire cabin into thinking you're one of the good guys.

There shouldn't be a single pilot on the line that can't manage a safe emergency landing if the other guy is incapacitated.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

And instead of landing the plane solo we should have every advantage of making sure two young healthy pilots are at the controls. Not one with a foot in the grave because some foreign country does it the wrong way.​

​

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I did not arm chair quarterback comment on the Continental flight. I simply stated the possibility of using this in the future as a breach of the flight deck is a very real possibility. A pilot expiring in flight is a security issue. Every attempt must be made to save the pilots life with the on-board equipment. The cockpit door must be opened to do it.​

Security is even more important than safety in a post 911 world. And the security implications of the cockpit door being opened more frequently as a ressult of age 60 being changed to age 65 is a valid issue.​

​

No armchair-quarterbacking here either.
Worried about a security breech?
Why not just shoot them in the head if they make an aggressive move?
You DON'T have a GUN?
Why the hell not?

 

[puddlejumper101]

The passengers could be completely unaware anything was going on until too late. I doubt the door was left open and if a civilian "volunteer" gets into the cockpit, he can pick his time to act. This is one of the very scenarios I predicted right after 9/11. Breaking into the cockpit is no longer an option, but if you can get in with a fake ID or somehow get invited to help out in an emergency, you've effectively conned the entire cabin into thinking you're one of the good guys.

There shouldn't be a single pilot on the line that can't manage a safe emergency landing if the other guy is incapacitated.

while I agree with your last statement about landing solo...faced with this or any situation you better believe that I would use ALL avail resources to get the job done. A private pilot might be just that...but believe it or not he can help. Plus...you think those two were the only ones up there?? Dude we are airline pilots and our job is the safety of the crew and passengers. Easy to sit here and say what you did withouth being there. That door had to be opened plenty of times if anyone was going to help the Captain that was dying. I am no doc, and if anyone can help him or me...then they will be there helping.

I know what happened in 9/11 but I think your scenario sounds more like a movie out of Hollywood than anything else. According to your theory then none of us should be riding in the jumpseat. For that matter why trust the other pilot...lets just build kevlar booths with bullet proof windows so we can seperate the cockpit in two...just in case. Like a seven eleven cashier in the middle of the projects. There is safety protocol...and then there is an emergency. If you just happened to get hijacked on the same flight that your Captain just died on then WOW...that's a bad day. How anyone is questioning what this guy did this day is absolutely absurd...he did his job and did it well...he was a true airline pilot not a maverick going solo trying to save the day all by himself. Next thing you know maybe we should also be required to be doctors just in case the other guy passes out and we can save him...land the plane...and come out on CNN wearing a medal of honor with our ray bans and a gun on our belt. I am just a pilot man...not a doctor or a cop...I do what I have to do to get the job done knowing full well what my limitations are.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

The very same folks that are trying to hang this guy would be the same folks trying to hang him if he landed it solo.If he had so much as a flat tire you guys would try to suggest that it was due to not having someone in whatever seat.

To suggest that his actions during an emergency due to the death of a cockpit crew member were/are questionable is sheer nonsense.
Twist it around any way you want as many of you will surely try.

But...A fully qualified Captain took action based upon the availible resources at the time and used his emergency authority to determine a course of action that resulted in the safe return of the passengers,crew,and aircraft.

To question his actions based solely on the accounts of the media and second hand rumor is more than questionable,its a disservice to all of us that share a cockpit.

The end result speaks for itself.

 

[MCDU]

I think it would be more a distraction having someone next to me that does not belong in the seat and is unfamilar with the airplane. With all the automation, it should be a none event to land it by your self.

Marty

 

[brainhurts]

Um, by standing up, moving over and sitting down again? It probably made taxiing a heck of a lot easier.

As such an experienced pilot, flying your 1900, I feel remorse that I need to point out that from what I read, there was really no reason to do a seat swap in flight--the point being that even with the autopilot on, there was no one at the controls. The FO/IOE Capt ck airman can make his own choices in an emergency situation, but I was curious why, if the Capt upgrade was dead, would you not land, do the seat swap, and taxi to the gate? If the Capt upgrade's life was still in question, why would you take time for a seat swap instead of concentrating on the divert? I have full confidence that these questions are easily answered by what the Ck airman's plan was, that is why I am asking. Emergency decisions are just that...there really is no right answer. Sounds like the ck airman did a great job. I am not second guessing his succesful outcome. I am curious professionally what his thought process was. The day I need sarcasm from a 1900 pilot for a reasonable question on a majors public forum has not arrived yet.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

This scenario is the exact reason why I carry one of THESE in my backpack, right next to my ipod and hair gel.

 

[brainhurts]

At least now you can see why his brain hurts.

Stunning humor "VETRIDER" what a great play on my screen name. So, do you really have a Corvette? Wow! Do you wear driving gloves and cool sunglasses too? You....must be.....a....PILOT!!!!

 

[brainhurts]

This scenario is the exact reason why I carry one of THESE in my backpack, right next to my ipod and hair gel.

Priceless.

 

[Golden Falcon]

cant see why u need help to land a 757 you can certainly reach everything from the left seat....our 757 had no right seat tiller...

 

[jimcav]

The very same folks that are trying to hang this guy would be the same folks trying to hang him if he landed it solo.If he had so much as a flat tire you guys would try to suggest that it was due to not having someone in whatever seat.

To suggest that his actions during an emergency due to the death of a cockpit crew member were/are questionable is sheer nonsense.
Twist it around any way you want as many of you will surely try.

But...A fully qualified Captain took action based upon the availible resources at the time and used his emergency authority to determine a course of action that resulted in the safe return of the passengers,crew,and aircraft.

To question his actions based solely on the accounts of the media and second hand rumor is more than questionable,its a disservice to all of us that share a cockpit.

The end result speaks for itself.

Amen.

 

[vetrider]

Stunning humor "VETRIDER" what a great play on my screen name. So, do you really have a Corvette? Wow! Do you wear driving gloves and cool sunglasses too? You....must be.....a....PILOT!!!!

Not quite, you're welcome to try again, though.

 

[IB6 UB9]

As such an experienced pilot, flying your 1900,................. The day I need sarcasm from a 1900 pilot for a reasonable question on a majors public forum has not arrived yet.

I bet he can't wait to be as good as you someday. Maybe send him a poster of yourself.

 

[gkrangers]

As such an experienced pilot, flying your 1900, I feel remorse that I need to point out that from what I read, there was really no reason to do a seat swap in flight--the point being that even with the autopilot on, there was no one at the controls. The FO/IOE Capt ck airman can make his own choices in an emergency situation, but I was curious why, if the Capt upgrade was dead, would you not land, do the seat swap, and taxi to the gate? If the Capt upgrade's life was still in question, why would you take time for a seat swap instead of concentrating on the divert? I have full confidence that these questions are easily answered by what the Ck airman's plan was, that is why I am asking. Emergency decisions are just that...there really is no right answer. Sounds like the ck airman did a great job. I am not second guessing his succesful outcome. I am curious professionally what his thought process was. The day I need sarcasm from a 1900 pilot for a reasonable question on a majors public forum has not arrived yet.

What if the check airman was just more comfortable in the left seat? Would that be a valid thought process for the seat swap?

 

[DeucesWild]

there was really no reason to do a seat swap in flight--the point being that even with the autopilot on, there was no one at the controls.

It would take 5 or 6 seconds maximum to swap seats. If you can't remain in control of the aircraft (with the autopilot engaged) for that long while swapping seats you have no business flying for an airline anyway.

If that check airman was more comfortable in the left seat (with tiller available), he absolutely should switch seats. He is the Captain, remember?

Soliciting avialable resources (asking for another pilot on board) is just good CRM, even though he was surely 100% capable of doing it all himself.

The flightdeck door had to be opened to render medical help for the ill pilot. You have to try to save his life, and that means opening the door. Believe it or not, there is not a terrorist on every flight every day waiting for the flightdeck door to be opened because the pilot is having the 'Big One'.

A little common sense could go a long way....

 

[Palomino]

typical Flightinfo.com Monday quarterbacking.

the crew did a commendable job. the Captain performed well within his Captain's authority. end of story.

 

[80for80]

How is this different than your typical regional captain flying with a 500 hr wonder newhire?

 

[PositionandHold]

How is this different than your typical regional captain flying with a 500 hr wonder newhire?

The regional captain didn't ask for the 500hr wonder newhire to be there.

 

[SuperFLUF]

It certainly was the Captain's decision as what to do and there are many different choices he could have made that all would have worked or been "appropriate".

Personally I would have been more distracted keeping an eye on the unkown in the cockpit with me.

One thing to consider though is that even though there were no aircraft systems problems at the time doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to stay that way. If an engine goes or you lose a hydraulic system you certainly would want some help up front.

 

[dhc8drvr]

Not to mention the same thing that incapacitated the first pilot (an unknown at this point) could have struck down the second pilot, leaving an empty cockpit or an FA at the controls. A private pilot could at least work the radios and keep the blue side up.

very sad, but great outcome.

 

[brainhurts]

I bet he can't wait to be as good as you someday. Maybe send him a poster of yourself.

I actually have one:
http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Baby-Pilot-Posters_i1237699_.htm
How can you not like me now? Here is the exchange that I replied to:

Originally Posted by brainhurts
OK, So the Captain is incapacitated. The FO calls for pilots in the cabin. The passenger/pilot comes forward and sits in the right seat? How did the FO get over to the left seat? WTF
Quillpig: Um, by standing up, moving over and sitting down again? It probably made taxiing a heck of a lot easier.

I asked a reasonable question and answered his reply with a mutual tone of disrespect and sarcasm. OK maybe a little escalation. I guess in retrospect I could have made it a little fuzzier and more nurturing. I am sorry Quillpig. I lost my temper. Its just that your words hurt me.....and....it hurt.

 

[brainhurts]

What if the check airman was just more comfortable in the left seat? Would that be a valid thought process for the seat swap?

Actually, that is a great one. I guess my problem comes from too many seat swaps in a prior life. The reason I am conditioned not to seat swap (with no one in the other seat) comes from aircraft ops spec's and also the FARS that deals with wording mandating that you always have to have a pilot in a seat, and just not having to explain that to the FAA in the investigation. I think the guy did a great job. Its kind of like a loft where there is not one right way to handle the situation. I just don't think for me the first thing I would do is swap seats--again its probably from some conditioning I should probably stamp out. Thats the reason I raised the question.

 

[brainhurts]

It would take 5 or 6 seconds maximum to swap seats. If you can't remain in control of the aircraft (with the autopilot engaged) for that long while swapping seats you have no business flying for an airline anyway.
It would take less for a rapid D. Thats why the ops spec for the aircraft calls for there to be a pilot at the controls at all times. I thank you for your opinion of who should be or not be an airline pilot.
If that check airman was more comfortable in the left seat (with tiller available), he absolutely should switch seats. He is the Captain, remember?
As a Captain, I would like the letter "Q" stricken from the english language. Is that a Captain's authority? And as a matter of fact you are wrong. The FAA and the manufacturers have guidelines about no one at the controls and your cowboy attitude is incorrect. This guy did it and it worked out, great. I do not think it will go unnoticed by the FAA. My past training as an instructor and check airman forbade this exact circumstance based on the ops spec of the plane.
Soliciting avialable resources (asking for another pilot on board) is just good CRM, even though he was surely 100% capable of doing it all himself.
I have no problems with getting someone else up front.
The flightdeck door had to be opened to render medical help for the ill pilot. You have to try to save his life, and that means opening the door. Believe it or not, there is not a terrorist on every flight every day waiting for the flightdeck door to be opened because the pilot is having the 'Big One'.
Agreed.
A little common sense could go a long way....

.........

 

[Flyingdutchman]

All I hear is "bla bla bla bla bla bla bla"

The PF did land the airplane safely. case closed.

 

[PCL_128]

The day I need sarcasm from a 1900 pilot for a reasonable question on a majors public forum has not arrived yet.

Perhaps not, but the day you needed an ego check seems to have arrived long ago.

 

[brainhurts]

Perhaps not, but the day you needed an ego check seems to arrived long ago.

Coming from you thats a compliment. See explanation above.

 

[Deli Guy]

Actually, that is a great one. I guess my problem comes from too many seat swaps in a prior life. The reason I am conditioned not to seat swap (with no one in the other seat) comes from aircraft ops spec's and also the FARS that deals with wording mandating that you always have to have a pilot in a seat, and just not having to explain that to the FAA in the investigation. I think the guy did a great job. Its kind of like a loft where there is not one right way to handle the situation. I just don't think for me the first thing I would do is swap seats--again its probably from some conditioning I should probably stamp out. Thats the reason I raised the question.

Ex military right? Yes, all the heavies I flew in the AF had the same warnings. The difference between the training in the 121 world and the mil was that the mil actually trains in the traffic pattern and the 121 world trains in the sim, so there is not a phobia about seat swapping with yourself. I think if your opposition on this got a hold of their training departments, and asked what the official answer is you would be 100% correct. In the current 121 AQP environment, it would end up as a debrief. By the way, I thought your reply to Quillpig was about right.