Pat Tillman is not a hero....

[S2B]

Bomb Vieques!

 

[Timebuilder]

Dear Timebuilder,
If you are such an admirer of Tillman - God rests his poor soul - why don't you follow on his footsteps and join the service for an Iraq(k) tour. See if you like it. Check Afganistan also. Try for a change to put your money where your mouth is. Maybe....just maybe you will get lucky and get to meet Jesus on those places. I believe He is waiting for you for some time. You shouldn't make him wait. That's not nice of you. Very disrespectful.

Well, count, I suppose that I have to start by cutting you a large amount of slack, because it is obvious that you don't know me well. You've been a member here for almost two years, and you must have missed some of my posts, so I'll share this with you:

I looked into joining the reserves several years ago. With my academy background, education and experience, along with my pilot certificates, first class medical, and status as a single man, I thought it would be a shoo-in. Seems that someone in the GAO suggested a few years back that people can only enter government service up to a certain age, so that they can be vested in the pension plan by age 65. I thought age discrimination was illegal, and you would think the military would welcome someone with previous experience and a willingness to serve, but no go. I'm still thinking about pushing the issue further, because I know a lot of cranky old officers that I went to school with, and they serve just fine. In the Pentagon.

So, I will treat you with more respect than you offered me. Perhaps you will grow up a little, in time.

 

[727PAA]

Airspeed.

Some of your posts:

Anyone ever flown in Beirut Lebanon?
Got a job offer there flyinga corporate jet out of Beirut. Anyone with expieriences bad or good? Mostly worried about terrorism. Thanks.

Malaysia
Before you start blaming whole nations you need to see the whole picture. Its these radicals that screw it up for everyone else. Malaysia didn't bring anyone bombings, the Islamic Jihad did. I have lived in Malaysia and the people are a hell of a lot more friendly and caring then anywhere I have been in the states!

Air Serve
Had a job offer from the awhile ago. BE200 based in Afghanistan. At the time I couldn't do it, too many things on the homefront. Last I talked with them they had an opening coming up in Jordan in a BE200 to fly from Jordan to Iraq everyday. The pay is Very low, like 2400/mo for a BE200 Capt. I just couldn't see flying into a war zone for that kinda pay. Very nice people though. BTW- they are in Warrenton VA, no longer in CA.

So which is it. Why worry about terrorism in Beirut. I mean they are the ones that are sponsoring the Hamas terrorists in Israel

Is it our fault or not. I guess you only fly into war zones for big money..not that lousy Army pay that Pat Tillman makes.

Dude you give the Navy a bad name.
Sounds like you would like an extended stay in Malaysia..give it a shot

 

[cherokee]

With an attitude like that, I am highly suspicious this guy was ever a mil pilot at all. I find it hard to believe that a guy with those kind of attitudes would make it through the pilot screening process.

 

[NEDude]

People such as Rene need to seperate the military and those that serve from the elected leadership in Washington.

Those who serve their country, regardless of their reason, deserve to be thanked and appreciated. Those who serve in the military however are used at the discression of our elected leadership. If you have issues with our policy in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else, then your issue is with the civilian elected leadership, not with those who serve in the Armed forces.

 

[airspeed]

727PAA

First of all I spent over a decade in the USN. Give the Navy a bad name give me a break. You are like a sheep. You follow the herd and are probably to afraid to voice an opinion as you feel you'll get flamed so you just pick the opinion of the day and go with it. Yes, I was worried about terroism since its been a long time since I was over there. Just to clarify something I would rather fly into a war zone to deliver food and supplies then to kill people just because some bloodthirsty govt. thinks it should be done. Not a robot like you.

 

[Timebuilder]

I would rather fly into a war zone to deliver food and supplies then to kill people just because some bloodthirsty govt. thinks it should be done. Not a robot like you.

This is a good example of someone who must resort to personal attacks instead of having a reasoned discussion based on ideas.

Things like "kill people because some bloodthirsty government" indicate that he really hates the policies of the United States. Strange coming from a decade of service in the Navy, but then again we have a presidential candidate who gave aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war, by his actions after returning to the US. Also, one who supports this "bloodthirsty government" would be similarly impugned.

"Bloodthirsty government." Hmm. Did you ever say that about Sadaam Hussein? I wonder.

"Not a robot like you." Rather than admit that millions of Americans and other world citizens can come to an opinion of agreement with US policy, this attempts to apply a derogatory explanation of this agreement, as if supporters were somehow "programmed" to support policy. Of course, there is no evidence to support this absurd idea.

On a different note, I have spoken with the AirServe people, and offered to fly for them, too. This was a second choice to joining the reserves and flying C-130's overseas. They want the B200 experience, and I don't have that. If you do, good for you.

The people you may help with food, medicine and other NGO activities will be able to benefit from those things now because the US acted to bring freedom to them, allowing them to make a choice in their self-governance over a terrible dictator in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan. The US military folks stationed around the airports in these countries will make you far more safe than you would be otherwise.

 

[kevdog]

Pat is dead, I really don't think he cares if he is a hero or not. I think the story is overplayed and a bit annoying. People get pissed when abc wants to show pictures and name the names of the service men and women killed in iraq over its 30 minute show but it's ok to show pat every 5 minutes for days. Something seem wrong here?

 

[Timebuilder]

Pat is dead, I really don't think he cares if he is a hero or not. I think the story is overplayed and a bit annoying. People get pissed when ABC wants to show pictures and name the names of the service men and women killed in Iraq over its 30 minute show but it's ok to show pat every 5 minutes for days. Something seem wrong here?

Yes. Your apparent lack of insight.

Pat would definitely not like the publicity. He did not seek it, and he did not seek greatness. He achieved it, though, by his humble actions. Overplayed? No, just an accounting of what he did, and why he did it. We forget about our heroes soon enough. There' nothing wrong with recognizing the genuine article when one comes along.

As for Nightline, you have to look at intent. Intent is a concept near and dear to the liberal heart. Intent is far more important than actions. More important than the outcome. More important that almost anything. So, what was the intent shown by Nightline?

In 1969, Life magazine took the unusual step of showing the American public a large group of photos that were intended to sway the American public's view of the war in Vietnam, and stir antiwar sentiments. Some historians agree that it was effective in that intent. Some say it single-handedly helped to turn the tide of public opinion against the war.

Nightline intended to do the same thing as Life magazine. Despite protests to the contrary, and claims that they wanted to "honor" the soldiers, the Nightline presentation failed to have any earmarks of an intent to honor the soldiers.


When you honor someone, as we saw in Pat Tillman's funeral this week, you talk about accomplishments and willing sacrifices made by the individuals being honored. Koppel and his producers calculated just how much time was available to them, and allowed scant seconds for each soldier, most with photo and name.

A roster of soldiers, yes. An honoring of their service, no.

No mention of deeds that brought freedom to millions.

No mention of the elimination of a brutal dictator.

No mention of the fomenting of freedom in an oppressed population.

No. Honor was not the intent.

 

[kevdog]

OK, I see, so only the "cool" heroes get the needed coverage.

Pat = Millionare NFL Player = Cool

Jerome = Poor intercity kid = Not Cool

Gotcha.

 

[kevdog]

or wait...as portrayed on the media

Pat is a real american hero (helps recruitment & Morale).

Jerome and all his buddies (hurts recruitment & Morale).

I have insight now! Thanks!!

 

[platinumclub]

what

Seems like everyone on this thread knew Pat Tillman, as they are speaking of him like he was their friend. I've gotta go with kevdog and airspeed on this one, maybe they are the ones with insight.

Just because someone doesn't agree with what Bush is doing doesn't render them unpatriotic. I have lived in other countries and I realize how wonderful the U.S. is, as do many foreigners, but the fact remains that the last TWO Bush's to take office have have not only f.cked the economy, but also started wars. Ironny...I think not. Who was that 'great' president of the early 80's, didn't he have his finger on the red button throughout his campaign. We aren't the world's police, I'm embarrassed only a few others on this board have the ability to see this.

I'm not saying that Hussein didn't need to be overtaken, because he did. Whose job was it though, certainly not ours and to lie about the reasoning. Only an ignorant would still believe the WMD's will be found, open your eyes, they ARE NOT there. Bush needed to do this for his own ego, when you guys predict they are going to find Bin Laden? I'm guessing when Kerry takes a sizeable lead, that should sway some votes back.

 

[BoilerUP]

Anybody who signs the dotted line and volunteers for military service is a hero in my opinion. The novel thing about Pat Tillman was he was a multi-millionare professional athlete that threw all his material posessions away in an instant because he believed he should serve his country. Be honest - how many people here would have done the same thing, if they had all Pat Tillman was blessed with? I don't know if I would have...

Those that sign up for military service are bound to follow the orders of their superior officers, up to and including the Commander-in-Chief. If you don't like those orders, tough sh*t - you knew what you were getting into when you took the oath. If somebody is so ignorant or naive to think they may not ever have to fire a shot in anger or put their life on the line for Uncle Sam, then they were just plain stupid.

I admire Pat Tillman's sacrifice, and the sacrifice of everyone who has served, is serving, and who will ever serve in the defense of my country, freedoms and ideals. I agree that we shouldn't be the world's police, but if we didn't do the dirty work, nobody would. I think a little spat called World War Two demonstrated quite nicely how the United States cannot have an isolationist foreign policy, especially with the global economy of today.

If you don't like our CIC, his foreign policy, or America in general, put your money where your mouth is in November. Until then pound sand, join the Michael Moore fan club, and STFU.

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE

<=== Medically disqualified from AFROTC, temporarily medically disqualified by MEPS, currently seeking waiver for OTS

 

[cherokee]

Well said Boiler!

 

[Timebuilder]

OK, I see, so only the "cool" heroes get the needed coverage.

Pat = Millionare NFL Player = Cool

Jerome = Poor intercity kid = Not Cool

Gotcha.

No, what is extraordinary is that he stepped up to the plate IN SPITE OF the big contract, the cushy lifestyle, the fame and fortune.

What is extraordinary is that he willing went and fought next to "Jerome." He did so when he had a plethora of other choices.

Being "cool" has nothing to do with it.

I think I can assume that you know the weakness of you position, and you don't mind just being obstinate.

 

[DenverDude2002]

From what I have read and heard, (Denvers QB was very good friends nwith Tillman), Pat was a very good person. He never drove sportscars, never acted like he was rich. He never wanted to be better than anyone else. He rode a bike to practice in Az then got an old Jeep when the riding got to be to much. He never wanted to make it a big deal, and didnt want the media to get involved. The fact is after 9/11 he felt a calling to serve his country and give up the millions he would have made in the NFL to go to a job paying 17,000 a year just to serve his country. In my opinion this guy deserves a lot of respect for doing what he did, a lot of people wouldnt have. I'm sure he wouldnt have even wanted the media coverage he is getting now.

 

[airspeed]

Just because I don't agree with the majority opinion on here means I can't pass a psych eval? Did Columbus agree with everyone when he took of to prove the world is round?? Oh, but he must have been crazy right? Yes, I was a turkey driver. Yes, I did serve my country. But as I really got insight into the way things should be and the way they really are I formed my own opinions. I don't and never will FORCE my opinion on anyone. I feel very strongly that this govt here in the good ol USA tries to change whole cultures because they don't see things the way we do. Not everyone in this world eats apple pie, believes in god, etc. We spend so much money on new fighters like the F-22 or a waste like the Comanche when that money could have been put to a good use like helping the homeless or cancer research. We all only have one life to live. Its so short when u really think about it. So therefore we should let others be and live their own lives. Look, I couldn't agree more that Saddam is an evil person maybe even another Hitler. But lets face it, he is gone and they still hate us over there. You cannot liberate or change people that don't want to. What are we gonna do next, take over Cuba cause they are still communist???

 

[kevdog]

Kill 'em all, let TimeBuilder sort 'em out!

 

[cherokee]

I suspect people said the same thing about Japan and Germany in WWII, are you really going to say they are not better off now than they were? People thought, especially about Japan, that it is not a culture that has ever been a democracy so how can we expect them to attain it. Well, looks to me like they are a thriving democracy and if I recall the number 2 economy in the world. By the way, no we don't take over Cuba, they have not been a national security threat to us or any of their neighbors.

 

[chawbein]

This is a stupid f*cking discussion.

Say what you will, but Pat Tillman manned up and did what he perceived to be his duty, which is more than can be said about alot of the folks participating here. He is a symbol of every one of those troops over there who sacrificed whatever good thing they had going over here, and that's it.

What's this so-called "Jerome" example??

 

[DCMartin]

I agree with Chawbein. This is dumb. There is no reason why you shouldnt respect what Tillman did PERIOD.

Youve got Airspeed comparing himself to Columbus and and his rant on this thread to proving the world is round.

Did Columbus agree with everyone when he took of to prove the world is round??

Just chill out and give this dead soldier as well as every other soldier whos died the respect they deserve.

DC

 

[TonyC]

Just chill out and give this dead soldier as well as every other soldier whos died the respect they deserve.

I agree. The tough part is the "every other soldier" part. When Pat Tilman - - don't get me wrong, I think he did an honorable thing, and I am grateful for his service and sacrifice - - when he gets all this media attention, the others who served AS honorably are done a disservice. Although I know of no others that forsook multimillion dollar contracts to serve, I imagine there were some that would have. We owe ALL our soldiers honor and respect. IF Pat Tilman gets overdone, the others suffer.

 

[Dash8]

I agree. The tough part is the "every other soldier" part. When Pat Tilman - - don't get me wrong, I think he did an honorable thing, and I am grateful for his service and sacrifice - - when he gets all this media attention, the others who served AS honorably are done a disservice. Although I know of no others that forsook multimillion dollar contracts to serve, I imagine there were some that would have. We owe ALL our soldiers honor and respect. IF Pat Tilman gets overdone, the others suffer.

amen brother,
tony,
i don't always agree with what you say in other threads
but i'm with you 100% on this, singling him out as a hero degrades all the rest, who's entire lives are devoted to service to our country.

 

[TonyC]

amen brother,
tony,
i don't always agree with what you say in other threads
but i'm with you 100% on this, singling him out as a hero degrades all the rest, who's entire lives are devoted to service to our country.

Don't get carried away! I didn't say he's not a hero - - just that too much attention detracts from the others that serve just as heroically. I guess it's a matter of degree, and right now the degree is too much.

 

[DCMartin]

Although I know of no others that forsook multimillion dollar contracts to serve, I imagine there were some that would have. We owe ALL our soldiers honor and respect. IF Pat Tilman gets overdone, the others suffer.

Good point tony. I agree with the fact that "others suffer" in regards to the dead soldiers recognition from the media. And I hope one day we will get to hear their names and stories. I think most Americans do honor and respect our troops regardless of what the media doesn't say about them though. My friend got sent home a month ago with a purple heart. And whenever he goes to a bar and someone finds out he just came home, he gets everyones thanks and appreciation as well as alot of free drinks.

 

[iahawkeye]

I don't think that anyone suffers from the media making him a hero. The fact is that there are many soliders out there who are just as much of a hero as he is. This guy just happens to be famous, and it gives everyone a chance to identify someone who has made a great sacrafice. They can't do a story on every dead solider, but this gives us a chance to appreciate everyones efforts.

 

[countbat]

I was so impressed by your life story Timebuilder, that I have decided to help you in reaching your dream – meeting Jesus faster while serving in Iraq(k). Joining the service wouldn’t be such a good idea because you will get shot in the back by our own troops at the first fire exchange with enemy. I don’t know but you do fit the profile of someone to whom something like that could happen.
Join Halliburton. The pay is good. I hear is about 7000 USD cash – no taxes- per month for an aircraft fueler. You will get Iraq(k) for sure. A pilot is paid about 2000 USD a month (taxable) for contract work in that area. That way you will get some first hand experience and when you will return – but because your happiness is to be by Jesus right side and you will not disappoint Him by returning – we will be more than happy to listen to your real life experience knowledge.

Airspeed I hope you do realize that you are wasting your breath trying to insert some common sense through so many Square Heads?!

 

[secks]

Pat Tilman was/is a hero because he fought for this country.
Just like all of the men and women wearing the uniform of this country. He did not question what it is all about.

He is a hero, along with ALL of them.
rene gonzalez is a total A$$. He is not worthy of cleaning the dog shiite off of Pat's boots.

How can someone who does not consider the cause for which he fights be a hero? How can someone who fights for a cause which is not vital to our national defense be called a hero? If blindly fighting for one's country is the only requirement for heroism, then it is inconsistent to regard Nazi soldiers as no less than "heroes".

No, I reserve the label "heroes" to describe the men who 1) fully understand the cause for which they fight and 2) fight for a cause worth dying for (that is, an uncomprimised war which is vital to the defense of the homeland). The men I call heroes are those who died freeing this country of Brittish tyranny. They're the men who fought in the War of 1812. The men who fought in WWII. The soldiers who died in conflicts like Vietnam, although many courageous, were pawns in an unjustified war. Even McNamara admitted in his book that we shouldn't have been there. These men died for a lame cause. Thus, I cannot call them heroes, despite their bravery and sacrifice.

One thing history has taught us is that soldiers and citizens who are affected by these wars and conflicts are often unaware of the hidden forces which are truly at work. We understandably find it easier to accept propaganda as fact without doing research. To those of you considering risking your life in a modern war, be very cautious, and do your homework. Things aren't as simple as they used to be. Use your HEAD, or you might lose it!

 

[Timebuilder]

I was so impressed by your life story Timebuilder, that I have decided to help you in reaching your dream – meeting Jesus faster while serving in Iraq(k). Joining the service wouldn’t be such a good idea because you will get shot in the back by our own troops at the first fire exchange with enemy. I don’t know but you do fit the profile of someone to whom something like that could happen.
Join Halliburton. The pay is good. I hear is about 7000 USD cash – no taxes- per month for an aircraft fueler. You will get Iraq(k) for sure. A pilot is paid about 2000 USD a month (taxable) for contract work in that area. That way you will get some first hand experience and when you will return – but because your happiness is to be by Jesus right side and you will not disappoint Him by returning – we will be more than happy to listen to your real life experience knowledge.

I think I can say with some certainty that you display the attitude of a "brat." No respect for your elders, and darned little for your country. You have my pity. That's all you deserve.

 

[cynic]

I think there are some job openings for prison guard. The pay is great and as an added benefit, you get to have your picture taken with a bunch of naked dudes!