Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[SWAdude]

No one currently flying in a 121 job has paid their dues. They're renewable at the whim of this crazy little thing called life. "Paid dues" leaves the impression one is owed something in return for one's loyalty/hard work/longevity/luck/etc. Better to leave that wish at home.

I certainly feel like I have earned what I have. Some luck, but mostly hard work and making the sacrifice required to have my career.

I think that paying your dues "earns" you the right to have what you "payed" for.

As a side note.....this debate will never enlighten anyone to their side. Its too selfish of an issue. I wouldn't waste my time if I were you guys. I would take the same time an email congress and the senate. Those are the people you ultimately have to convince. Not the greedy old captain and first officer.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Oh, I guess he used this information when they put the age 60 issue in place back in 1959 ah?

Didn't say that, did I? I responded to this statement by you:

This has always been about money! Since there was never any tests or medical research done prior to 1959 until present date just proves this.

I highlighted a couple of parts to point out that you were wrong. It's called "debate". You assert something...and I prove your assertion wrong.

How the rule was adopted doesn't matter at this point in time if the evidence shows that it is currently a beneficial rule. Can we agree on that much?

The issue is simple: Is it a good rule right now?

Face it, it is strictly a money issue. If it was based on health reasons alone we would have comprehensive flight physicals every 6 months rather than just a dog and pony show! I mean what a waste of time!

The money issue doesn't matter to me.

The reason we don't have comprehensive physicals is because we self-disclose and self-certify. The FAA has seen fit to "trust" us to a certain extent. Note: I'm not sure when the "trust" policy was adopted...or how...but I think it's working and don't advocate changing it.

Talk to your AME. If you have known him for any amount of time and they are honest they will tell you that they are there to make sure you self disclose any health problems. They will only find gross items of health that are out of wack or if body parts have literally fallen off.

Excellent! Thank you for making one of my key points!

'Splain to me exactly HOW a pilot with diminished cognitive ability determines he/she is suffering diminished cognitive ability? The self-certification paradox!

For once I would like to see an honest young FO say the reason they want it to stay age 60 is because "I want to upgrade and make more money!" I would have allot more respect for that statement. Because your health issues are pure BS!

Are you asserting that with the same certainty as your "never been any fatigue research" comment?

 

[The Prussian]

You gotta admit...those descriptions of "furloughed brothers and sisters" sound an awful lot like ole Jim there, not too many years ago. Seems to me he got hammered by the seniority list from above, and now he's getting hammered by the junior guys from below on this thread. I don't sense pompousness or condescension...just trying to slug it out at his position and survive. After all is said and done, life itself is just one big seniority conveyor belt.

And...monkeying around with the seniority system (in an effort to make things fairer), and wishing for tighter medical surveilance....well,... be careful what you wish for...you just may end up having to live with it.

 

[Phaedrus]

I certainly feel like I have earned what I have

Yes, precisely. You have earned what you have. What no one has earned, i.e. can expect because one has "paid their dues", is any promise of anything in the future in this business, including tomorrow or even this afternoon when you show.
That's what I was referring to when I said dues are renewable, and largely at whims of events that no one has any control over whatsoever. Those that believe they've earned something are setting their heels on the precipice. Even more so, those that think they deserve special treatment at the expense of others haven't "earned" anything or "paid" for anything. Think about it. If the rule is overturned those at the top will be fortunate enough to be the right age at the right time. That's something altogether different than earning something.

 

[pilotyip]

Prussian, sounds just like what E. Gann said about AAL back in 1940. "As an airline pilot you are a slave to numbers", after he got bumped out his Capt's seat during a cut back.

 

[The Prussian]

Prussian, sounds just like what E. Gann said about AAL back in 1940. "As an airline pilot you are a slave to numbers", after he got bumped out his Capt's seat during a cut back.

Agreed. If that book was Fate....reminds me...gotta dig it out sometime and reread it. Been meaning to do that.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Really? Somebody call Dr. Helmreich and Dr. Foushee...both of whom have been researching and reporting on the issue since 1966. Maybe NASA should try to get their grant money back!

Start here and do some of your own research. It's interesting!

http://www.risk-e.com/conference2006/helmreich

How about some research done in THIS century



from www.age60.com
Aerospace Medical Association finds no medical support for the Age 60 Rule After 2-plus years of study, the Aerospace Medical Association's Civil Aviation Safety Subcommittee found last year (2004) that there is insufficient medical evidence and/or accident record to support airline pilot restrictions based on age alone. The Subcommittee thus suggests that the Association abandon its 20-plus year prior policy of support, and recommends that the FAA abandon the Age 60 Rule altogether, change the cutoff criteria, or raise the age limit. Note: This was one of the sources cited by ICAO in justifying it increase of the age limit for airline pilots.The Subcommittee's recommendation to the Association's governing body, dated January 15, 2004, can be viewed at: Aerospace Medical Association Position Paper, Age 60 Rule,(.pdf, 48 Kb).The paper was published in the Association's scientific journal Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine, Vol. 75, No.8, August 2004. Note: At the bottom of p.6, last sentence of the Staff paper, the AsMA Subcommittee recognizes the methodological flaws underlying Reports 3 and 4 of the FAA/CAMI 4-part study that is the subject of my DQAct complaint. Visit the "Woolsey DQAct Complaint & Docket" at left to view these Data Quality Act complaint documents.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Heard some more about the 60-year old 747 "retired" pilot that was mentioned earlier on this thread.

I have heard that he's an age-60 ex 747 captain who is driving for an airport shuttle service, hauling foreign pilots between the airport and their hotels. Some of the pilot crew he transports are older than he is and still flying as airline captains in their own country. When they come to the US they switch (on paper) to F/O so as to be in compliance with ICAO-USA laws. Of course after November 23 when the ICAO rules change, he'll be transporting foreign captains who will be older than he is and carrying their bags too for a $1 tip per-person.

This pilot is an unwanted burden on the PBGC, probably welfare and food stamps too. All he wants is to work at his profession and doesn't want to be a burden on anyone or any government. I have heard that he has two kids in high school and both want to attend college. At least his flight attendant wife is working to help out. This guy did two tours in Vietnam as a forward air controller before his airline career. Is this what pilots get for their military service and 40 years of paying taxes: Demeaning handouts from compassionate foreign pilots and our government as the FAA lets foreigners fly in our country taking our jobs while ALPA and APA endorse this? Our pilot unions in this country make me sick because they are sick to endorse this kind of discrimination. I bet the Saudi pilots, the Mexicans and the Canadians are in disbelief as this unfortunate captain has his hand out hoping for a tip.

If the law is not changed the only difference for me will be that my wife is not employed and I only have one kid in high school. If only my union that I have been a member of for so many years would do what is right instead of using extermination as the solution.

 

[ivauir]

Its about money for you too, don't kid yourself or try to BS us about that either. A little honesty goes a long way. You want guys gone so you can move up and get into the left seat which is your big raise. You never made any response to my idea of letting the guys back that had to retire at 60 but were yet to turn 65 and bringing them back at there old seniority. What, you didn't like that idea since it would also screw up "your" money issues?

First off, I have been saying this is a money issue from the begning (over and over again). I am not kidding myself and I am pretty sick of being accused of lying or BSing just because I don't agree with you.

Actually, I suggested retirees returning about 17 pages ago so I thought further coment from me wasn't warrented.

Letting the over 60 (including retirees) fly from the right seat only solves the scheduling problems, mitigates some of the senority stagnation issues, and is the only compromise I've heard anyone propose. It gives everyone the same thing - more time in the right seat. You spend a lot of time discussing what your situation was and what you presume mine to be, but not everyone is at a "growth airline" and changing the law will affect more than just SWA. SR65 will never have the support of the junior pilots. I suggest (again) producing legislation that isn't so one sided - earning the support of a clear majority of US pilots. You'll have mush better odds of success.

 

[heilhaavir]

On March 11, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) met and in a nearly unanimous vote, decided to increase the maximum age for airline pilots for ICAO member nations’ pilots from age-60 to age-65.

UndauntedFlyer, would you have a link or document about the march 11th meeting?