Our "Team" leader out to lunch

[SilverSurfer]

Giving the ideot a backboard

I totally agree! However, FUD campaigns are sometimes effective otherwise union-busters wouldn't use them so aggressively and desperately, especially when they're trying to destroy the group's unity and will to prevail. That said, if the posting group votes to give the fudspinner the boot (place him on their ignore list) I will follow their lead. Then I'll switch to red boots and put a red anti-fud warning on the bottom of my posts...

Word-twisting fudspinners have an agenda -- not credibility. Give 'em the black boot!

NJW,

You know I admire your fire and passion for our fight. I wish every pilots we have was willing to fight the fight as you are.

If all of us were to ignore this moron and not allow him to side track every thread with his horsesh!t, our communications here would be more effective. When any of us respond to his FUD, providing him a backboard to bounce his message, you are providing a means for him to perpetuate his mission and help make him successful. If we do not respond to him when he takes these FUD shots they go off into INTERNET space as if him and his words do not exist.

I have him on my ignore list all by himself, so the only time I see anything this moron has to say is when someone quotes him. What I see from these quotes is the same old sh!t, same old message. Why help him to accomplish his mission by providing him a consistent forum to to spread his FUD.

Ignore the fool.

 

[Frac Cap]

I will ignore him.

 

[skanza]

You attack me like a high school bully using names like fudspinner, village idiot and wordtwister because you have no other way to deal with the honesty of the opinions I have that are thought of but never spoken by the average non-pilot employee burned by a union.

Your posts are immature, selfish and self serving even though your only involvement is being the wife of a pilot. Success by 1108 at FLOPS will line the wallets of 1108 leadership with the hard earned dues of it’s members and place the company at risk.

NJW, can you directly respond to these comments made by this person? If not, you are staying stuck in a circle of just attacking the poster personally and not addressing things that he/she brings up that should not be ignored. If ignored, then your credability is at risk because of your inability to be objective. Once you cross into attacking someone on a personal level, your argument departs from the sujbect at hand.

 

[skanza]

subjective / objective ?

If all of us were to ignore this moron and not allow him to side track every thread with his horsesh!t, our communications here would be more effective. When any of us respond to his FUD, providing him a backboard to bounce his message, you are providing a means for him to perpetuate his mission and help make him successful. If we do not respond to him when he takes these FUD shots they go off into INTERNET space as if him and his words do not exist.

I have him on my ignore list all by himself, so the only time I see anything this moron has to say is when someone quotes him. What I see from these quotes is the same old sh!t, same old message. Why help him to accomplish his mission by providing him a consistent forum to to spread his FUD.

Ignore the fool.

So, by ignoring him one is showing that they are unable to see that this argument has two sides. That is pretty weak in my opinion. And if you trash me for my opinion, you are subjecting you own to the same disrepect. This is, after all a two sided issue and not addressing both sides is dangerous. B 19 whomever they are has not lashed out at others as they have lashed out at him, thus sustaining his/her credability.

 

[CaveoFalco]

.........

I am quite shocked that you have not been moderated off this board. Comparing NJW to Hitler is not only uncalled for but downright evil and very clearly anti-semitic. Had you ever visited Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, or any other of the places Hitler inflicted his hatred on the Jews of Europe you would never, ever use such an appalling reference over a difference of opinion. You are a disgusting human being for such a reference. The rest of your post is so filled with hate speech framed with Anti-Semitic overtone it is not worth commenting on.

 

[SilverSurfer]

So, by ignoring him one is showing that they are unable to see that this argument has two sides. That is pretty weak in my opinion. And if you trash me for my opinion, you are subjecting you own to the same disrepect. This is, after all a two sided issue and not addressing both sides is dangerous. B 19 whomever they are has not lashed out at others as they have lashed out at him, thus sustaining his/her credability.

skanza,

I have no problem debating issues with someone, and I have with B19 in the past. I put him on my ignore list only after spending far to much time addressing the same issues again and again in what proved to be his fruitless never ending regurgitation of the same old crap. His arguments are based on his supposed personal experience and not on imperial evidence. When arguing his anti union point of view he has been asked by me and others to back up his arguments with information about situations that gave him such a bad case for unions and what this new non union utopia is that he now works for. He backs up none of his statements by validation of his personal experience. The result is a never ending exchange that has the end effect of disrupting and sidetracking other communication that are taking place and this is exactly what this guys mission is. Why should I help him to accomplish his union busting mission?

 

[CaveoFalco]

So, by ignoring him one is showing that they are unable to see that this argument has two sides. That is pretty weak in my opinion. And if you trash me for my opinion, you are subjecting you own to the same disrepect. This is, after all a two sided issue and not addressing both sides is dangerous. B 19 whomever they are has not lashed out at others as they have lashed out at him, thus sustaining his/her credability.

B19 does not have educated opinions, only hatred for all that is Union. His academic research amounts to quoting Wikipeidia so he has no credibility with anyone. He won't listen to any arguments counter to his cause and won't even acknowledge that the facts that NJW continually points out on this board. His references to Hitler show his true inner being and what he really stands for. Shameful.

 

[skanza]

Silver/Caveo,
Points taken by you both and thanks for your candor. I guess that it bothers me that B19 is attacked so much and it seems like the only reason is that because his view of the union is different from the supporters. Some of his views may be based on personal experience, but aren't everybody's? Given that, what would be considered a credible source for examples of the negative affects that unions have on companies? And no, there can't be none, because then we'd be slipping into being non-objective.
Thanks.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Reasonable and objective

Silver/Caveo,
Points taken by you both and thanks for your candor. I guess that it bothers me that B19 is attacked so much and it seems like the only reason is that because his view of the union is different from the supporters. Some of his views may be based on personal experience, but aren't everybody's? Given that, what would be considered a credible source for examples of the negative affects that unions have on companies? And no, there can't be none, because then we'd be slipping into being non-objective.
Thanks.

I believe that any reasonable and objective reader of the arguments with B19 that have been played out in thread after thread would come to the conclusion that B19 is not here to debate. He is here to disrupt and side tract every thread into a pro union/anti union debate using the same unsubstantiated arguments over and over again.

You are right that our personal experience forms the basis of the opinion we express here. And most if not all of us have shared what specific experiences we have had that formed these opinions. B19 has refused repeatedly to validate the basis of his arguments by sharing where and with what company the union opinions were formed. For me this makes what ever he has to say regarding his anti union views as not worthy of any further consideration.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 does not have educated opinions, only hatred for all that is Union. His academic research amounts to quoting Wikipeidia so he has no credibility with anyone. He won't listen to any arguments counter to his cause and won't even acknowledge that the facts that NJW continually points out on this board. His references to Hitler show his true inner being and what he really stands for. Shameful.

Not true. I have given credible and specific information time and time again. I can counter every union propaganda statement with a historical fact of a union gone bad. We don't really need to go far beyond Eastern, but the layoffs following the downturn in the industry prior to 9/11 should be enough with the stagnant reaction by unions to the financial threat of bankruptcy.

My newspaper articles are generally from the New York Times and Wall Street Journal, although I may have used an occasional quote from wikipedia.

I do listen to the arguments, and they for the most part are given by people that have never been laid off or experienced a work action. I have had my career redirected twice thanx to unions and have experienced the best of my career without the pressure of a union enviroment.

The arguments are also make by pilots that have never managed in a union world to see what it's like.

I have always held to the same exact statements.

Be careful what you ask for, and if you have the courage, step into the action and manage rather than criticize something you haven't experienced. It's a lot harder than it seems.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I believe that any reasonable and objective reader of the arguments with B19 that have been played out in thread after thread would come to the conclusion that B19 is not here to debate. He is here to disrupt and side tract every thread into a pro union/anti union debate using the same unsubstantiated arguments over and over again.

You are right that our personal experience forms the basis of the opinion we express here. And most if not all of us have shared what specific experiences we have had that formed these opinions. B19 has refused repeatedly to validate the basis of his arguments by sharing where and with what company the union opinions were formed. For me this makes what ever he has to say regarding his anti union views as not worthy of any further consideration.

I've validated over and over and have given specific circumstances. I'm just tired of repeating what I've written in my earlier posts.

How many times to I need to make the statement that I was laid off twice due to union actions, and specifically once by a bankruptcy from a legacy carrier and union inaction?

Does it really matter which one it was? Unions burned all of them.. get over it and be careful what you ask for.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, can you directly respond to these comments made by this person? If not, you are staying stuck in a circle of just attacking the poster personally and not addressing things that he/she brings up that should not be ignored. If ignored, then your credibility is at risk because of your inability to be objective. Once you cross into attacking someone on a personal level, your argument departs from the sujbect at hand.

Skanza, I have a long record here of being one of the most respectful posters on the board. I also happen to belong to the most overlooked/undervalued group of workers in our society--a stay home mom. So I had hoped that discerning readers would recognize the FUD/garbage being flung around by B19. Caveo gets it and many others have, as well.

To those in danger of falling into B19's trap, have you not noticed that: He ignores the reality of frac pilots being underpaid/overworked? That he refuses to concede that those professionals are entitled to a salary commiserate w/their skills and contribution to the company? That my pointing out that economic reality was in NO WAY disrespectful to other workers? Didn't you see word-twisting and cowardly behavior in his going after the only wife/non-pilot on the board when Gunfyter made exactly the same point and B19 didn't say a word to him? Other pilots have noticed and even summed it up as stalking. I agree. He keeps shoving his words down my throat to the point that it's sickening! How many times have I posted that my family was NOT burned by the AA pilots union? He superimposes his opinion of an event in my life and dares to lecture me about respect?! Get real!! That is classic FUD! I've read Confessions of a Union-Buster and B19 is a text book example. His goal in attacking me is to discredit a strong advocate of the Union and thus score points in his anti-union war that we are all being bombarded with.

As Silver noted, B19 rants endlessly about unions in other industries that have nothing to do with the only frac union and their exemplary record. I repeatedly challenge B19 to have a relevant discussion of current frac issues not his alleged personal past. Have you forgotten that he lost credibility when asking me lots of questions about my husband's career but refused to answer my similar questions about his own. No one knows where he works and what his current position is; in contrast, that information is regularly shared by those who post here. It provides a baseline to judge where a person is coming from. Yes, I call B19 a fudspinner (insisting we were burned by the union that helped us after 9-11) and a word-twister (denies me the right to speak for myself about the respect a I have for other workers) because that is clearly what he is.

Here's more response Stanza: B19, who has no direct connection to the fracs is demeaning my right to post on the very issues that affect me and my family. His sexism oozes from a statement falsely calling me immature and selfish. That is his irrelevant opinion that isn't shared by the majority of the frac community. More FUD. Naturally a fudspinner is angered when his insidious plans are thwarted by those aware of his union-busting tactics.

Still following along Stanza.... To accuse 1108 of ruining Flt Ops is classic FUD designed to drive a wedge between frac pilots and scare the Options pilots into caving and taking much less than the going rate for their professional skill. 1108 leaders LOSE money working for the pilots. I point that out over and over and B19 makes accusations that are basically calling honorable leaders petty crooks. How disrespectful can one get?! So the term of hypocrite does, indeed, fit him, too. He does nothing on here but spreads FUD, twists reality and displays blatant disrespect to every union member in our frac community-- and their wives. The reality that he refuses to acknowledge is that 1108 has changed lives for the better, helped bring in record profits to NJA, and that the relationship there between the Union and the non-pilot employees is based on teamwork and fairness. I have pointed this all out many times, Skanza, but as Silver posted I was "spending far to much time addressing the same issues again and again in what proved to be his fruitless never ending regurgitation of the same old crap."

I have been standing up for myself and trying to warn others at the same time. Most here seem to understand the terms fudspinner and word-twister quite well. So I point out the FUD to those not watching and continue to have relevant discussions with frac pilots who are here to talk about current events that directly impact their lives and mine. I will put my respect for others and my honest reason for posting here up against a fudspinning, reality-warping hypocrite any day.

Furthermore,, my boots ARE NOT evil they are a fun part of the fashion craze spurred by the latest pirate movies--that's it!! I just use them effectively to illustrate my points. Only one poster here demonized my boots and that goes along with being a Village Idiot.

Commenting on behavior apparent to all means that I dug in my heels and stood up for the truth.

Those lacking in credibility should be given the boot. Fudspinners, word-twisters and reality-warpers to the front of the line!

 

[Galaxy]

NJW says it best...
I also agree that B19 lost all credibility a long time ago. He likes to claim all this information we ask of him is in his prior posts. All anyone ever finds researching his past is how a guy who doesnt fly nor work for a fractional is all over the fractional board focused on FLOPS. More than just a coincidence? It lays the framework for what his real mission is here.. Spreading a wedge between pilots-union-mgt. If Anti -Union was his real message he would be all over the regional boards as well as the majors.

On to NJW, I can't believe anyone would personally attack her much more appauling is to compare her to Hitler. She was a military wife/mom then to become a frax pilots wife and deal with a husband gone for a week at a time. He should be thanking her for her and her husbands hard work in the military and now for NJA and the 1108.-I personally thank both of them.

He claims how unions are so bad. But he can not give any information relating to our industry (frax) he just continously harps on some imaginary 121 carrier. In fact if the 1108 is so bad why is it so hard to get on with NJA right now and you never hear a NJA pilot complain about company and pay issues. All the posts here on NJA are how long for the interview-or some other type of hire me questions.

Skanza, while you may not care for the union even you must agree that the current FLOPS mgt is more than just inept. All this time and money are being wasted on this fight. I wonder if the union got you a raise via a contract would you turn it down for you own morals? Doubt it..

It comes down to we love a great debate but you have to have some kind of foundation to stand on. B19 has yet to show his foundation or than he was layed off due to a Union. If the airline-(what airline was that again B19) had to cut the fat-they don't cut essential personnel. So he likely had a job like the former and current FLOPS ceo did. They hired all their friends and gave them positions like VP of aircraft aesthetics.

 

[realityman]

Actually, SS has it exactly right. Just quit responding to his posts. Put him on ignore. Skip over his posts. Whatever.

NJW comes in a close second. She also has it exactly right in that B19 simply can't present any RELEVANT info because presently there is only ONE working union in the frac world. And that union has been very successful so far. If he were to hold up the one and only RELEVANT union in this discussion, it would pretty much destroy any of his weak arguments.

It has become a waste of time to debate him. It's the same stuff day after day. No matter how many times you pick apart his arguments he'll still spew the same stuff out again the next day. Kind of the same theory that if you say something the loudest, you must be right.

DO NOT RESPOND to this guy and he'll go away. Unless, of course, he enjoys debating with his alter ego on these boards (in and of itself kind of deceitful and full of serious psychological issues).

 

[bchjetdrvr]

Actually, SS has it exactly right. Just quit responding to his posts. Put him on ignore. Skip over his posts. Whatever.

DO NOT RESPOND to this guy and he'll go away.

Sergeant Hugo Dick asked nicely to do just that. Some people just can't seem to ignore you know who.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=108486

It must be like trying to quit smoking. You know it's bad for you, you know you have to quit but you just do it anyways.


Thanks moderators for moving my thread to the union talk side. Glad this thread made it ok without a scratch.

Moderators - By the way, I've taken up learning a new word each day. Here's my first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

 

[bchjetdrvr]

Actually, SS has it exactly right. Just quit responding to his posts. Put him on ignore. Skip over his posts. Whatever.

DO NOT RESPOND to this guy and he'll go away.

Sergeant Hugo Dick asked nicely to do just that. Some people just can't seem to ignore you know who.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=108486

It must be like trying to quit smoking. You know it's bad for you, you know you have to quit but you just do it anyways.


Thanks moderators for moving my thread to the union talk side. Glad this thread made it ok without a scratch.

Moderators - By the way, I've taken up learning a new word each day. Here's my first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Hooked on ignore worked for me!

Speaking of mods...what was the website forum where the mods from here broke off and started? I forgot what it was. There have been A LOT of moving relevant threads the areas uninhabited by anyone these days.
As for the other problems, take it from someone who has recently implemented it, Ignoring users certainly helps make this appear to be a more useful forum and makes for a MUCH better dayimp:

 

[Galaxy]

wasn't it clear and a million.com or something like that?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

wasn't it clear and a million.com or something like that?

That sounds familiar! Thanks !

 

[Voice Of Reason]

http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/index.php
Found it! Anyone know if it is active these days, or is registration not worth it? The forum index doesn't really indicate ANYTHING is happening...is it different once you register? The way it APPEARS based on what you see unregistered, is no posts in a year??? That can't be right, can it? If not, maybe they need to make the whole forum list viewable to the public (even if you can't read the posts until registering)...that way we can see what forums there ARE and if active.
It seemed like at the time they broke off it would be a great community...I just got busy at the time then forgot about it...