Others value ALPA more than many of its members

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Plus



Equals

So white guys are second class citizens who can't upgrade but a lot of the show is run by...white guys?

You're good. I mean really good.

 

[Freight Dog]

Freight Dog-

I was going to bring up Emirates... They have allot of problems over there... go to pprune and read the threads...

Unions are illegal in UAE. Work rules change unilaterally. And yes, upgrade is part of the good ol' boy network... As a white guy [read 2nd class citizen] when do you think you'll upgrade?

The Brits run allot of the show over there... the pecking order is Brits, Aussies, Canadians, any other subject of the Queen then Yanks.

The rest of the world doesn't want to deal with independant minded Yanks...

The one of many solutions to our problems is to raise the bar for the junior pilots. Take 30K from the senior guys and give it to the junior guys. If first year pay was 60-80K would that be ok for you? Or what would be a fair first year pay for you to start over flying a B737.

The goal is to lift others up... not bring everyone down so we are all miserable together...

The benefit to the senior guys is there is less dispairity, sub groups and less divide and conquer. The more unified a pilot group is the better we can improve pay and QOL for everyone...

Well Rez... for all the whiners I see there, I see some happy U.S.-born and bred B-777 captains who have zero desire to come back here. Hell, ask Typhoon Pilot if he wants to come back to fly for a U.S. airline. Could he come back and fly a B-777 for a US airline making that kind of money? Good Heavens, Prater would have a heart attack! SENILITY... err I mean seniority.

I agree with you with regards to lifting up the payscales to 60-80k for starting out... briefs very well. Do you see senior captains giving up that much to "buy insurance" if their airline goes under? I don't... ALPA just recently proved whom they'll listen despite the majority with respect to Age 65.

As someone said... we couldn't have f**ked things up worse if we tried. We, meaning management and ALPA...

 

[AC560]

As someone said... we couldn't have f**ked things up worse if we tried. We, meaning management and ALPA...

The difference is a manager at an airline can laterally transfer to another airline (or in many cases another industry that would utilize their skill sets) for same or greater pay/benefits. When an airline tanks the accountants are getting another good paying job. The pilots are going back to $20k a year.

Seniority has effectively put you into a corner with no escape. Thus pilots can easily be forced to give concessions with the idea being at least they get to keep their jobs and more pay then $20K a year (plus some promise that maybe pay will be restored). Good management when offered cuts just leaves for another job (or bad management for that matter).

Somebody made a good point on this thread about pilots sleeping on boards. If those pilots could just go work elsewhere for the same or better money, don't you think that practice would stop? If somebody told all the accountants at your airline that instead of sitting on chairs they had to sit on milk crates, how long do you think they would stick around (and how long would it take for the airline to wise up and bring back in some chairs).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well Rez... for all the whiners I see there, I see some happy U.S.-born and bred B-777 captains who have zero desire to come back here. Hell, ask Typhoon Pilot if he wants to come back to fly for a U.S. airline. Could he come back and fly a B-777 for a US airline making that kind of money? Good Heavens, Prater would have a heart attack! SENILITY... err I mean seniority.

I agree with you with regards to lifting up the payscales to 60-80k for starting out... briefs very well. Do you see senior captains giving up that much to "buy insurance" if their airline goes under? I don't... ALPA just recently proved whom they'll listen despite the majority with respect to Age 65.

As someone said... we couldn't have f**ked things up worse if we tried. We, meaning management and ALPA...

I just don't care for your resignation and apathy... which of course is understandable and your choice and right...

What is the solution? or is there none... do we stop resisting the rapist and submit?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Somebody made a good point on this thread about pilots sleeping on boards. If those pilots could just go work elsewhere for the same or better money, don't you think that practice would stop? If somebody told all the accountants at your airline that instead of sitting on chairs they had to sit on milk crates, how long do you think they would stick around (and how long would it take for the airline to wise up and bring back in some chairs).

There are plenty of managers and VPs that deal with crappy treatment and conditions. The ability to leave is out there but I don't think it is so easy and often as you say....

What is the solution to the pilots leaving quickly... which by the way they do readily at the entry level regionals... Mesa to Skywest for example...


The point...

What is the solution and don't praise the corporate mid to upper level manager world too much... its not that great...

 

[AC560]

There are plenty of managers and VPs that deal with crappy treatment and conditions. The ability to leave is out there but I don't think it is so easy and often as you say....

Sure there are masochists everywhere. If and when they do leave though they are collecting roughly the same pay package which is the difference.

which by the way they do readily at the entry level regionals... Mesa to Skywest for example...

And they readily do that because they can do so with an improvement in pay and QOL, or one or the other without a decay in the other. That opportunity disappears rapidly as the need to claim seniority sets in.

What is the solution

I think I have been pretty clear on the solution. If pilots want to be treated like professionals then they should negotiate like other professionals on the basis of their experience.

Is it a perfect scenario; no. There are a lot of great doctors who don't get the top job because they don't kiss ass as others have previously states. The positives though greatly outweigh the negatives.

Because 80-90% of the pilot workforce today exists essentially as indentured servants due to seniority (inability to flee), management can pretty much do as they please to the entire group. You have no recourse.

 

[PCL_128]

The positives though greatly outweigh the negatives.

Not even close. You couldn't pay me enough to go without union protection in this industry.

 

[Bdfg1]

Not even close. You couldn't pay me enough to go without pay for training.

Interesting.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sure there are masochists everywhere. If and when they do leave though they are collecting roughly the same pay package which is the difference.

And when they are trying to get a promotion they are playing favorites and being suck ups. Is that professional?

And they readily do that because they can do so with an improvement in pay and QOL, or one or the other without a decay in the other. That opportunity disappears rapidly as the need to claim seniority sets in.

We trade mobility for seniority protections.

The point... do you want to play suck up to upgrade?

I think I have been pretty clear on the solution. If pilots want to be treated like professionals then they should negotiate like other professionals on the basis of their experience.

Experience? So then we will have to create an experience validation program.

Do pilots bad their log books to get job interviews. How would we stop that?

And whats with this experience push... suddenly a 10,000 pilot is better than an 8,000 hour pilot.

The issue is its tough on the ego for a 10,000 pilot to go from CA to FO and pull gear for some kid.

Experience has some value and its paid for in longevity raises... but qualified is qualified.

Is it a perfect scenario; no. There are a lot of great doctors who don't get the top job because they don't kiss ass as others have previously states. The positives though greatly outweigh the negatives.

And is our seniority system. Everyone likes it during the growth times. But hate it during the regression...

What to do?

Because 80-90% of the pilot workforce today exists essentially as indentured servants due to seniority (inability to flee), management can pretty much do as they please to the entire group. You have no recourse.

If you want seniority protections when you get furloughed then you are going to have to make another pilot pay. Sure your exp. counts... but how do you make it work?

 

[AC560]

The issue is its tough on the ego for a 10,000 pilot to go from CA to FO and pull gear for some kid.

No I think the issue is it is hard on a 10,000hr/20yr veteran to go from $150K a year to $20K a year and no pension.