Organization of Black Airline Pilots Part 2

[Wiskey Driver]

The other thread got too long and I wanted to make sure that everyone saw this. I am embarrased for many of the posters on this forum and some of their very transparent views. The purpose of that thread was a fellow pilot reaching out to others during Black History month to speak with some children.

I see now that many of you though you will share the cockpit with us and even occasianally shake our hands you still harbor that deep resentment that we are even there! I guess it's much easier to be a raciest when you can do it behind a keyboard and an annonmous handle.

This isn't about Black or White it's about the children and who they can identify with!! I speak to innercity youth a couple times a year and can tell you that when they see me and some of my friends who have made it out of the ghettos and who have become successful in this profession, its that they identify with!!

Black History month?? Out of twelve months a yr the people feel compelled to block off feburary, the shortest month of the year mind you to honor many of those trail blazing black americans that suffered so that people like me can be where I am today.

So many of you might want to think about who you are and what you represent before you start calling OBAP a raciest organization! Do some research first.

WD

 

[pdub20s]

The other thread got too long and I wanted to make sure that everyone saw this. I am embarrased for many of the posters on this forum and some of their very transparent views. The purpose of that thread was a fellow pilot reaching out to others during Black History month to speak with some children.

I see now that many of you though you will share the cockpit with us and even occasianally shake our hands you still harbor that deep resentment that we are even there! I guess it's much easier to be a raciest when you can do it behind a keyboard and an annonmous handle.

This isn't about Black or White it's about the children and who they can identify with!! I speak to innercity youth a couple times a year and can tell you that when they see me and some of my friends who have made it out of the ghettos and who have become successful in this profession, its that they identify with!!

Black History month?? Out of twelve months a yr the people feel compelled to block off feburary, the shortest month of the year mind you to honor many of those trail blazing black americans that suffered so that people like me can be where I am today.

So many of you might want to think about who you are and what you represent before you start calling OBAP a raciest organization! Do some research first.

WD

what ignorant pig said it was a racist org???????

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wiskey driver feels his opinion is so much more important than everyone else's that he feels the need to start his own thread.

I say we boycott the thread.

 

[PCL_128]

Wiskey driver feels his opinion is so much more important than everyone else's that he feels the need to start his own thread.

I say we boycott the thread.

I say Whiskey Driver is trying to inject some common sense into this discussion. I'd rather boycott the other thread.

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK, fine, Cut n Paste time then...

Several posters challenged my use of the word "discriminatory" to describe OBAP. Here is the definition:

ADJECTIVE:

1. Marked by or showing prejudice; biased.
2. Making distinctions.

Clearly OBAP does discriminate, inasmuch as their mission statement is specific to the promotion of Black pilots. Not any pilots, but specifically Black pilots. That is a distinction, setting a group of pilots apart from the general population of pilots. Here is OBAP's "Goal" from their web site:

Goals
The goals of OBAP are to motivate our youth to become educationally prepared for life, to increase minority participation in aviation through exposure, training, mentoring, and scholarships; to encourage networking among black pilots; to increase the number of black pilots hired by airlines; and to assist the black airline pilot with special needs and concerns.

Not all discriminations are bad. I belong to the "American Bonanza Society." If you own a Mooney, or Cirrus, you are welcome to join us. But you can expect us to tell you our airplanes are better, faster, bigger, etc... and you will only find coverage of Beechcraft in our magazine. We discriminate, but we do not exclude. This is kinda where I think OBAP is going with their discriminatory intent. It is a distinction with no harm being intended.

It seems many people get the word "discrimination" confused with the term "racist," which is defined as follows:

NOUN:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Again, I have no real concern about OBAP's operations. I've met some proud members who were good folks and I am grateful for their efforts to promote aviation, especially to kids that can benefit from the exposure.

I'm probably the only person on this web board who has had the Klan burn a cross in their yard. It takes forever for the grass to grow back after idiots get gas all over your lawn. I've seen racism from both sides and it is dumb and ugly regardless of who practices it.

I just kinda think "Black" as a descriptor of a ethnicity is outdated and anachronistic. As often as not, a "Black" pilot is from the Islands, Africa, America - with ancestors from Africa, British, and from the Pacific Islands. I've flown with every sort of variation of ethnicity and nationality and none of my friends seemed to think of themselves as "Black."

It seems like kids can identify with anyone who is patient, friendly, interesting and charitable. Maybe I just grew up in too diverse a World and just can't imagine folks defining who they are by a flawed definition of their ancestral ethnicity.

 

[PCL_128]

And none of that is relevant to the original post where someone was just asking for an OBAP member to help out an inner-city teacher by talking to her kids about becoming a pilot.

 

[~~~^~~~]

And none of that is relevant to the original post where someone was just asking for an OBAP member to help out an inner-city teacher by talking to her kids about becoming a pilot.

Sure it is. The poster did not ask for an "OBAP" member as you write. He was specific in his discrimination as to what kind of pilot he wanted. He wrote:

One specific Demographic is being requested you Moron. Please reread my original post.

Which is exactly why my post is relevant and why many people took exception.

You really want to know about Maverick's crazy cult?
http://www.truveo.com/SNL-Top-Gun-727Will-Ferrell-Val-Kilmer/id/4289209639

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMfr2CgIPhg

 

[PCL_128]

Sure it is. The poster did not ask for an "OBAP" member as you write. He was specific in his discrimination as to what kind of pilot he wanted. He wrote:
Which is exactly why my post is relevant and why many people took exception.

Do you think it would be very effective to send a white guy who grew up in Ann Arbor to talk to a bunch of black kids in Detroit about being an air line pilot?

You really want to know about Maverick's crazy cult?
http://www.truveo.com/SNL-Top-Gun-727Will-Ferrell-Val-Kilmer/id/4289209639

Probably seen it a hundred times, but it's still pretty dang funny.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Do you think it would be very effective to send a white guy who grew up in Ann Arbor to talk to a bunch of black kids in Detroit about being an air line pilot?

Yes, and if you make it about the kids, they participate and have a great time. Kids don't seem to get hung up on all the crap the adults do and getting comfortable relating to all kinds of people including those from Ann Arbor (all I know is automotive writer Patrick Bedard lives there and he's funny).

Wiskey Driver makes a good point that this apparently was a call for Black History Month presentation. It is a shame that the thread leaves him to believe that many folks are hidden racists. I think the truth is more that many people are frustrated at the shared goal of eliminating racism.

BTW - Obama 08 looks like it is happening

 

[Big Beer Belly]

And none of that is relevant to the original post where someone was just asking for an OBAP member to help out an inner-city teacher by talking to her kids about becoming a pilot.

PCL... the original poster (Psycho) did not ask for simply "someone"... but a someone that was BLACK... not white, not asian, not hispanic, not Irish, not Jewish, not Italian, not Pacific Islander... just BLACK. Of course you knew that, but prefer to appear to be simply a poor reader.

I completely fail to see why so many continue to perpetuate race as a division among us. Why would someone's skin color matter one iota during a 2nd grade presentation about aviation opportunities? The only possible explanation is that many harbor racist views. If we are a color-blind society, then why would Psycho be seeking only speakers from a particular race? I'm confused?

Why would the speaker's race or gender matter at all? Is Psycho suggesting that BLACK youths are only capable of learning about aviation opportunities from other BLACKS? This is 2008, isn't it?

To me it seems clear that the old phrase, "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem" was never more appropriate. Some just insist on perpetuating discrimination and keeping the races at odds with each other.

BBB

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Do you think it would be very effective to send a white guy who grew up in Ann Arbor to talk to a bunch of black kids in Detroit about being an air line pilot?

Classic racism!

BBB

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, and if you make it about the kids, they participate and have a great time. Kids don't seem to get hung up on all the crap the adults do and getting comfortable relating to all kinds of people including those from Ann Arbor (all I know is automotive writer Patrick Bedard lives there and he's funny).

Poor Wiskey Driver seems to indicate he thinks everyone has a hidden agenda. That's not balanced.

I respectfully disagree, Fins. I don't think it would be as effective to have the white guy there (and I say this as a middle-class white guy).

BTW - Obama 08 looks like it is happening

Damn straight!

 

[PCL_128]

Classic racism!

BBB

How so? And as a white guy, who am I being racist against? Myself?

 

[400ADude]

How about if we move this to another forum. Mods??

Whiskey has a damn good point though.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

PCL... imagine we are living in a color-blind society... that's what we are striving for, isn't it? Why would you then demand a speaker of a particular race? How odd? What would be the purpose? Why would the words spoken from someone of a particular race have more relevance than those spoken from another?

BBB

 

[PCL_128]

PCL... imagine we are living in a color-blind society

Sure. And right after that, imagine that we live in a wonderful utopian paradise.

Why would the words spoken from someone of a particular race have more relevance than those spoken from another?

Because the white guy from Ann Arbor doesn't share the same perspective as the black guy from Detroit.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

PCL... the original poster (Psycho) did not ask for simply "someone"... but a someone that was BLACK... not white, not asian, not hispanic, not Irish, not Jewish, not Italian, not Pacific Islander... just BLACK. Of course you knew that, but prefer to appear to be simply a poor reader.

I completely fail to see why so many continue to perpetuate race as a division among us. Why would someone's skin color matter one iota during a 2nd grade presentation about aviation opportunities? The only possible explanation is that many harbor racist views. If we are a color-blind society, then why would Psycho be seeking only speakers from a particular race? I'm confused?

Why would the speaker's race or gender matter at all? Is Psycho suggesting that BLACK youths are only capable of learning about aviation opportunities from other BLACKS? This is 2008, isn't it?

To me it seems clear that the old phrase, "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem" was never more appropriate. Some just insist on perpetuating discrimination and keeping the races at odds with each other.

BBB

Are you for real?!? You really don't know why a speaker's race would matter to a group of kids who probably have never known an airline pilot? Any person can listen to a pilot regale stories about flying and be in awe, but when that person "looks" like him and has had to overcome some of the same obstacles that that kid will have to, the young person can get a sense of "I can do it too." Giving the exact same presentation by a white pilot does not inspire that same sense of possibility. That has nothing to do with racism or discrimination, it's just reality.

From my background in the Marine Corps, I've learned that the black community mostly views the Corps as a Redneck gun club. A white Marine could talk all day about the opportunities of enlisting or becoming an officer in the Corps, but it just gets filed right along with the original perceptions. Again, to hear that same information from a black Marine changes the perspective quite a bit, and lends "credibility" to the person and changes the perception of what they would normally expect. Becoming a Marine is no longer hypothetical when there are career black Marines standing in front of you. If you don't understand that sociological phenomenon, then you probably just don't want to believe it.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Are you for real?!?

I'm for real Phrogs. Apparently raised color-blind and raising my children the same way.

You must think the civil rights struggle was just in a history book, or the words of MLK just some flowery sermon to be dismissed... but tough Marines like you live in the "real world".

How many centuries are you going to let pass till you think we're "ready" for a color-blind society?

BBB

 

[Phrogs4ever]

OK, fine, Cut n Paste time then...

Several posters challenged my use of the word "discriminatory" to describe OBAP. Here is the definition:
Clearly OBAP does discriminate, inasmuch as their mission statement is specific to the promotion of Black pilots. Not any pilots, but specifically Black pilots. That is a distinction, setting a group of pilots apart from the general population of pilots. Here is OBAP's "Goal" from their web site:

Not all discriminations are bad. I belong to the "American Bonanza Society." If you own a Mooney, or Cirrus, you are welcome to join us. But you can expect us to tell you our airplanes are better, faster, bigger, etc... and you will only find coverage of Beechcraft in our magazine. We discriminate, but we do not exclude. This is kinda where I think OBAP is going with their discriminatory intent. It is a distinction with no harm being intended.

It seems many people get the word "discrimination" confused with the term "racist," which is defined as follows:


Again, I have no real concern about OBAP's operations. I've met some proud members who were good folks and I am grateful for their efforts to promote aviation, especially to kids that can benefit from the exposure.

I'm probably the only person on this web board who has had the Klan burn a cross in their yard. It takes forever for the grass to grow back after idiots get gas all over your lawn. I've seen racism from both sides and it is dumb and ugly regardless of who practices it.

I just kinda think "Black" as a descriptor of a ethnicity is outdated and anachronistic. As often as not, a "Black" pilot is from the Islands, Africa, America - with ancestors from Africa, British, and from the Pacific Islands. I've flown with every sort of variation of ethnicity and nationality and none of my friends seemed to think of themselves as "Black."

It seems like kids can identify with anyone who is patient, friendly, interesting and charitable. Maybe I just grew up in too diverse a World and just can't imagine folks defining who they are by a flawed definition of their ancestral ethnicity.

No, I would say that OBAP clearly does not discriminate. Just because some of the mission statements specifically relate to the advancement of education and a career in aviation for blacks, it does not discriminate against others. OBAP does have white members; you just have to believe in and support the goals of the organization. OBAP does not discriminate against donors, whether corportate, government, or individuals. OBAP does not discriminate against participants in its programs, or the audience of its information programs. Do you think they show up to a public school and kick the non-black kids out of the room? White pilots have received scholarships, attended conventions, participated in ACE camps, pay dues, basically, are part of the organization. OBAP is not any more exclusive than APTAP (look it up). The name has more historical significance than anything. Their purpose is not about division, as you would imply, but about inclusion.

Some of you think that in today's age organizations like this are not necessary. I can't believe that as long as less than 2% of all airline pilots are black. What solution would you rather have, the government arbitrarily deciding how many black pilots an airline should have, or individuals spending their own time and resources to inform and encourage young students to begin thinking about a career in aviation? Which will lead to more private pilots, which will lead to more regional pilots, which will lead to more major airline pilots, and that whole 2% thing will take care of itself over time the right way, through qualification.