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[B19 Flyer]

Do you actually believe what your write? Hello! McFly! Anybody home?! The economy DID falter. Big time! Right after 9/11. Hmmm.......we sure did suffer at NJA....NOT! Would it be pointing out the obvious that we are not an airline? Should I repeat my point about our client base and how the rich, generally speaking, will always be rich and less affected by the ups and downs of the economy? interesting how you selectively choose which words and sentences you pay attention to.

Like Jetwash said, not likely to see our owners doing a sprint back to the 'convenience' and 'comfort' of the airlines.

Could things take a major downturn at NJA? Of course! NOTHING in life is certain. But your comparison to the airlines is so far out in left field it's pretty useless. Yes, we have a great new contract. But a 5th year captain at NJA makes $90K. What was a 5th year captain making at the majors when things went down the crapper? We have a very long way to go before our wages approach what the legacy carriers used to pay. Actually, for the most part, we still aren't near what the legacy carriers pay. And there's also the matter of productivity. Senior legacy captains could make upwards of $250K (before things went bad) and only work 8 or 9 days a month. Not much productivity for that kind of money. even with our good union, we'll probably never be working less than 15 days a month.

And there are so many other differences between us and the airlines I just don't have the energy to point out everything. But a big one is that while we still harbor some ill will towards the company, our union is actively working WITH the company to make it better, not just for the pilots, but as a long term career, meaning helping the company be more effiecient and safer. How many unions at the majors work closely WITH management to make everything work? Hmmm? In spite of some of the posts on flightinfo, we are actually not in an adversarial relationship with management.

Oh, it was hell on earth negotiating our current CBA. You have some truth to it there. But we didn't experience any sort of uptick in accidents or incidents during that time, so I'm not sure why you think safety is compromised during negotiations. Our group remained very focused on flying safely during that period.

Like I said, try doing a little research before making inane statements that don't hold up under the first glimmer of daylight.

Hey Biff! (AKA newcomer)

Speaking of research, if you really knew the industry, you would know that the problems started before 9/11. Look at the dates of these articles. What were you doing in July of 2001? I was managing in a major carrier and felt the brunt of the downturn well before the attacks. Nearly all the majors had been railroaded into industry leading contracts within months prior to the downturn. Mere coincidence? I'll post those articles too if need be. I was "downsized" out of a job within a year of this because the union wouldn't negotiate even though the writing was on the wall. That was the second time in three years. No worries anymore. And it's well known that NJ wasn't profitable for a long time and even now, while it's profitable it will take a long time to offset the losses of the previous decade. I think that NJ is the cream of the crop as far as a fractionals are concerned. But the smaller fractionals will suffer with union intervention.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-76617259.html

Delta Air Lines Downturn Reflects Rough Skies for Airline Industry.

From:
Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Date:
July 19, 2001

By Nancy Fonti, The Atlanta Journal and Constitution Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Jul. 19--When Delta Air Lines reports a large second-quarter loss today it will confirm that the good times have quit rolling for Atlanta's biggest corporate employer.
After a five-year run of big profits, the airline and its retooled management team now face a tougher financial environment. There's no sign yet the downturn will be as long or painful as the grinding slump of the early '90s, but it's forcing belt-tightening including a hiring freeze, route changes and sweeping fare ...


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78056343.html


Second worst.(US airline industry reports $2.5 bn profit decline)(Statistical Data Included)

From:
Air Transport World
Date:
September 1, 2001

US airline industry suffers a $2.5 billion negative profit swing in the three months to June 30
Bigger definitely wasn't better in the second quarter as far as the US airline industry was concerned. None of the Big Three carriers and only one of the six largest in revenues--Continental--managed a profit for the period. The other three that made money were No. 7 Southwest Airlines, Alaska Air Group and AmTran, parents of the ninth and tenth biggest Majors respectively. They also happen to be airlines that are far less reliant on free-spending corporations for their revenues.

 

[dime line]

Hey Biff! (AKA newcomer)

Speaking of research, if you really knew the industry, you would know that the problems started before 9/11. Look at the dates of these articles. What were you doing in July of 2001? I was managing in a major carrier and felt the brunt of the downturn well before the attacks. Nearly all the majors had been railroaded into industry leading contracts within months prior to the downturn. Mere coincidence? I'll post those articles too if need be. I was "downsized" out of a job within a year of this because the union wouldn't negotiate even though the writing was on the wall. That was the second time in three years. No worries anymore. And it's well known that NJ wasn't profitable for a long time and even now, while it's profitable it will take a long time to offset the losses of the previous decade. I think that NJ is the cream of the crop as far as a fractionals are concerned. But the smaller fractionals will suffer with union intervention.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-76617259.html

Delta Air Lines Downturn Reflects Rough Skies for Airline Industry.

From:
Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Date:
July 19, 2001

By Nancy Fonti, The Atlanta Journal and Constitution Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Jul. 19--When Delta Air Lines reports a large second-quarter loss today it will confirm that the good times have quit rolling for Atlanta's biggest corporate employer.
After a five-year run of big profits, the airline and its retooled management team now face a tougher financial environment. There's no sign yet the downturn will be as long or painful as the grinding slump of the early '90s, but it's forcing belt-tightening including a hiring freeze, route changes and sweeping fare ...


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78056343.html


Second worst.(US airline industry reports $2.5 bn profit decline)(Statistical Data Included)

From:
Air Transport World
Date:
September 1, 2001

US airline industry suffers a $2.5 billion negative profit swing in the three months to June 30
Bigger definitely wasn't better in the second quarter as far as the US airline industry was concerned. None of the Big Three carriers and only one of the six largest in revenues--Continental--managed a profit for the period. The other three that made money were No. 7 Southwest Airlines, Alaska Air Group and AmTran, parents of the ninth and tenth biggest Majors respectively. They also happen to be airlines that are far less reliant on free-spending corporations for their revenues.

Yo Moron, we fly the people that own the airline!!!dumb asz

 

[dime line]

For the CEO
Cut pilot pay, send directly to next rich guy.

Delta CEO to Earn Up to $15 Million
Monday August 27, 5:33 pm ET New Delta CEO Can Earn Up to $15 Million in Incentives

ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines Inc.'s incoming chief executive Richard Anderson will be paid an annual salary of $600,000 and could earn another $15 million in performance-based incentives, according to documents filed Monday by the airline.

Anderson, 52, was named Gerald Grinstein's replacement as CEO last week and will take office on Saturday. With the appointment, Grinstein, 75, will retire from Delta and its board.

Aside from his annual salary, Anderson will become eligible on Saturday to earn $11 million in incentives tied to the company's performance, the filing said. That sum is "in recognition of the substantial compensation awards that he forfeited by leaving UnitedHealth Group," where he served as an executive vice president, the filing said.
Some 55 percent of the sum would be paid in restricted stock, 25 percent in stock options and 20 percent in performance shares, the company said.
Anderson will also be eligible for another $4 million in performance-based awards next year, the filing said.
Both the payments would generally be vested over a three-year period.

The change at the top at Atlanta-based Delta follows the airline's 19 1/2-month reorganization under bankruptcy protection.
Delta entered Chapter 11 on Sept. 14, 2005. The company emerged from bankruptcy on April 30.
In bankruptcy, Delta shed billions in costs and restructured the carrier's operations. It also survived a hostile takeover bid by Tempe, Ariz.-based US Airways Group Inc.
Delta executives, faced with questions about a post-bankruptcy valuation below what they initially projected and below what US Airways offered for Delta, have declined to speculate about whether the airline would consider a deal with another carrier to increase shareholder value. Besides finding a new CEO, Delta's board also has to decide whether to sell or spin off regional feeder carrier Comair. The airline has not provided a specific timetable for that decision.

 

[realityman]

Once again, B19, selective reading on your part. What did my post say? Come on....there's a good boy....I know you can spot it........no? Okay, here's a hint: My post had nothing to do with what the AIRLINES experienced after 9/11, or even before. I talked about how it affected NETJETS, you lazy reader of posts.

Last time. Really. The point being that fluctuations in the economy don't have as much of an effect on the wealthy in this country (most of them. There are always some who take it on the chin), therefore, our client base will always be able to afford our product. Now will it always be Netjets? Can't say. Looking good so far, but you never know.

You seem almost angry that our union has an entirely different relationship with our management than most unions do at the majors. You can't just sit back and say, "Bully for you folks! Hope the prosperity continues.". Instead you almost seem to want to see us fail. Nice. If we can make something work that you couldn't at your past employer(s) you spout jealousy and incorrect info.

As for NJA's profits, they've been profitable for a lot longer than you think. Just because they publicly cried about losses (even though the public reports to Berkshire Hathaway showed something completely different) you immediately believe what they had to say. It didn't occur to you that they only cried poor during negotiations? Seems a little suspect to me, but hey, each to his own. I wonder how we went from BIG losses to record profits practically overnight (it really was literally almost overnight!) after the contract passed. Just luck? Some sort of humongous influx of business by relieved clients after the contract was finished? Come one, I know you're smarter than that! Or are you?

By the way SLICK (aka someone who makes incorrect assumptions, possibly by the number of posts someone else has made), I've been with Netjets for 10.5 years, and was with a non-union charter outfit for 6.5 years prior to that (guess which outfit gave me a better QOL even before our current CBA), and have been a member of flightinfo for at least several years now (can't recall the exact count), although I don't post often unless I see true verbal diarrhea that needs correcting. Newcomer? Hardly! Once again, a little shy of the actual facts my friend.

 

[Ben Dover FLOPS]

If that were true, then everyone else would be underpaid as well, not just the pilots. Line crew, maintenance personnel, inflight, etc.

And if THAT were true, then we'd be giving up on the theory of capitalism, wouldn't we?

Pay is set by the market for services rendered, period. There are exceptions, of course, including inept executives and pilots alike, and there are times when pay leads or lags that market, but over time it works pretty well.

This is why average CEO pay in the 80's was 40 times that of the average worker bee and now, in the 21st Century, it's 400 times that of the average worker bee!

I wonder what our fellow team member, Sean Scheeringa, gets paid to continually jam it up his employees' a$$es. I would be willing to bet it's not listed in the Employee Handbook where our pay is listed.

Now that, my friends, is capitalism at it's best!

 

[dime line]

edited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOg1nMzy3

 

[Ultra Grump]

I was managing in a major carrier and felt the brunt of the downturn well before the attacks... I was "downsized" out of a job within a year of this because the union wouldn't negotiate even though the writing was on the wall. That was the second time in three years.

What these statements tell me is that you weren't "managing" much, other than maybe your own cubicle. If you'd provided anything of worth to those companies, you'd still be there.

 

[1po'dpilot]

I wonder what our fellow team member, Sean Scheeringa, gets paid to continually jam it up his employees' a$$es. I would be willing to bet it's not listed in the Employee Handbook where our pay is listed.

Now that, my friends, is capitalism at it's best!

Agreed... I'm willing to bet that Scheeringa has a contract, as well as, his golden parachute for giving the pilots a screwjob. If a contract is good enough for him its good enough for me too! So how about you end the delay tactics and give the pilots an industry leading contract? Maybe then we can turn that tiny profit we made last quarter ( you know the profit we made that you went and and quickyly blew on a new logo, new stationary, new letterhead, new website, new ties, badges, etc....) into a real profit.

 

[Freedom]

Don't buy into the BS.........

Agreed... I'm willing to bet that Scheeringa has a contract, as well as, his golden parachute for giving the pilots a screwjob. If a contract is good enough for him its good enough for me too! So how about you end the delay tactics and give the pilots an industry leading contract? Maybe then we can turn that tiny profit we made last quarter ( you know the profit we made that you went and and quickyly blew on a new logo, new stationary, new letterhead, new website, new ties, badges, etc....) into a real profit.

That "Tiny Profit" line became public simply because all the other Fractionals were claiming to be profitable, and we had to do the same in order to stay competitive from a stability perception standpoint.

Don't kind yourself, we have been profitable for a long time, and all the cuts that Scheeringa has placed upon the Pilot Group were just to increase his Bonus at our expense.

Its called Greed. And Management has been executing a misdirection campaign, just like Netjets Management did prior to settling their Contract.

Typical crying Poor Mouth during Negotiations. Nothing new. Let's just hope our Pilots are not stupid enough to buy into it.

What our Ethical and Moral Pilots have to understand, or they will always be at a disadvantage, is that Management has never had a problem lying to their workers when it suits their needs, including looking at you square in the face and lying to you.

Freedom is not Free.

 

[Phoenix]

Your dog won't hunt

Another know it all statement by a newcomer. (Less than 15 years in the industry and/or has never had the courage to be a manager.)

Hang in there, what goes around comes around. Every time the CBA has to be renegotiated, it’s hell on earth for everybody and distracts from the true mission which is to move the people in the tube safely.

Non-union carriers don’t have to worry about that, and neither do I anymore. Get some experience, go through multiple negotiations and see if this isn’t true. Get mad at management if you would like to, but until you’ve got the nuts to walk in their shoes, you don’t have the right to complain.

The NJ guys talk so fondly of their contract, just like the United, American, USAir and Delta pilots did 7 years ago. None of them are singing the same song now because all of the unions dragged their feet instead of acting quickly. Only Delta was able to hold out the longest because they are the least unionized and even in the end they were still forced into bankruptcy by a pilot's union that didn't act fast enough to stop it even though they could have easily.

So, for you NJ guys... enjoy your plush contract. When the industry stutters, there will be far more discord at NJ than at any of the other non-union fractionals, just like there was more discord at the majors than there was at the second tier non-union carriers. Be careful what you ask for!

This latest statement, as with most of what I have seen you say on this board, is your personal opinion supported by little or no fact.

I in fact have walked in management shoes, for 8 long years, not in the fractional industry but as manager of in a large 135 operator in the southeast. I am well attuned to the demands put on management to balance finical responsibility for a profitable operation with safety and the well being of the men and women that work for you. It is not an easy job. Nowhere in this thread have I seen it said that an operation could not run without Union intervention, rather the quality of a company's management and the actions they take can necessitate a CBA. What makes a Union essential is a management that only is focused on fiduciary responsibility, and parent company's pressure to show a profit, ignoring safety, and preying on the pay, benefits and quality of life of their pilots. The actions of management at Options in the past three years up to their latest slap in the face of the pilots has made it clear that a Union/CBA is the only way we can have any level of protection. If our company was managed by an individual that had any understanding of our industry and appreciation for the contributions that are made by the pilots, we might not have a Union here now. The choices were and are to leave and look for a company that treated its pilots well or stay and fight. I choose to stay and fight. Now I'm not leaving till we have a CBA or they turn the lights off in CGF.

Get over your holier then thou, my shiet don't stink because I'm management bilge. In light of the latest FU(KING that our management just gave us you will find no takers here.