Only have a Private & Hate College

[mayday1]

Have they promised your friend advancement? Have they guaranteed him pay raises greater than 3% or whatever the cost of inflation usually is? If they have, I hope it's in writing. If it's not, there's a reason. If there's no guarantee at all, there's also a reason.

not sure where you work, but employers don't guarantee anyone anything. Your advancement is based on your performance.

Also, why wouldn't they take the risk at roping him in at $45k a year and leaving him at that? If he leaves, they hire another graduate from school at $45k per year. You want to tell me that is not feasible? The airlines do it all the time. If you don't like it, quit, because somebody else will do your job for the same money or less.

ok, but in many fields your value as an employee is commensurate with your experience. when you get into management and leadership ranks you're not making widgets, and companies are willing to pay big bucks for experience.

 

[mayday1]

But wouldn't the real question be how many that get hired at the respective airlines have the degree vs. how many that do not? I'd like to see a percentage, some real numbers here. I mean, it's one thing to pontificate from "on high" as it were about how unecessary a degree is for a piloting job, but it's quite another to be on the other side, a prospective employee, and trying to construct the best possible scenario for one's self to get hired. Sure, it is possible to find a good flying job without a degree. But is it likely? Is it realistic? Is it more likely that I will find a good job without a degree, or less? Which path gives me the best chance to make a living by flying an airplane? (Which is all I really care about anyway.)

Those are the real questions.

-Goose

let's also not lose sight of the fact that college is education and imparts knowledge. regardless of an employer's requirements, one can never go wrong with furthering their education.

To advise otherwise is irresponsible.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Great" airlines and open-mindedness

Where did you read I was imposing our hiring standards on anyone.

You are qualified to speak for your company only, Yip, USA Jets, and not the industry as a whole. But, that's what you're trying to do. Let reps from SWA, JB, etc. and the other "great airlines" log in and speak up.

Great airlines look at the whole man concept and not the piece of paper. That is open mindedness on those airlines listed, it was not intented to be an all inclusive list.

Based on my experiences, only, I would heartily argue that they are not as open-minded as you might believe. Go read my posts on that subject. And,all the others are not so great? That is a subjective opinion on your part, Yip, not objective. Meaning, Delta, Continental, American, United, AWA, U, Midwest Express, etc., are not so great, simply because their hiring criteria are not congruent with yours?

Kit says 172 out of 177 hiring do not make a 4-yr degree a hard requirement. We are talking about the possession of 4-yr degree or not. Sounds like a few readers are starting to get the picture, hang in there Bobby.

Of course, Kit's history of purveying sophistries is well-known.

Just read the rebuttals on this thread alone to your position. Some people do "get it," from the standpoint that starting the career without the best credentials, as you advocate, is sooooo ill-advised.

 

[bobbysamd]

Wrong button, sorry.

 

[bobbysamd]

Money bathtubs

It's funny how many pilots think the non-aviation world is full of jobs where people are rolling around in bathtubs full of money. Not sure where that mindset comes from, but most college educated people make around $50-60k/yr and work over 40 hrs/wk. I'm talking about people that've been out of college and working for awhile too...

Or make less than $50-$60K for the same hours.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey Bobby: Where is the list of airlines requiring a 4-yr degree? AA, UAL, CAL, DAL do not count because they are not even interviewing and are most likely years away from hiring. And again you have never answered “Why if the 4-yr degree is way to ensure you will get hired, how come non-4-yr degree guys are hired in front of the degreed pilots?

 

[Herman Bloom]

Why if the 4-yr degree is way to ensure you will get hired, how come non-4-yr degree guys are hired in front of the degreed pilots?

Because some people have stronger interview skills than others, regardless of whether or not they have a degree. You constantly miss the point, yip. Proof enough that, at least in your case, some more schooling couldn't hurt.

 

[ERAUBrat3]

let's also not lose sight of the fact that college is education and imparts knowledge. regardless of an employer's requirements, one can never go wrong with furthering their education.

When all the BS is cleared up as to which airlines give a crap about what...this is my true point. You can never be mistaken in getting a 4 year degree.

 

[smellthejeta]

not sure where you work, but employers don't guarantee anyone anything. Your advancement is based on your performance.

I know that, with one exception -- a collective bargaining agreement (and even then it's not guaranteed -- look what's happening to the airlines). I'm not sure if you were paying attention to the context of my post, but I was responding to a guy that thinks 45k out of school is great money and that his rommate is destined to killer pay raises only because he has a decent starting salary for a college graduate. I as trying to tell him that nobody is guaranteed anything, and whatever they told him in an interview / job offer should be taken with a grain of salt unless there is something substantive to back it up.

ok, but in many fields your value as an employee is commensurate with your experience. when you get into management and leadership ranks you're not making widgets, and companies are willing to pay big bucks for experience.

We're not talking about management, we're talking about a kid who just graduated from college. Yeah, I'm well aware that experience usually dictates that you get a higher salary/pay rate than somebody with less experience. However, length of service within a company is no guarantee of substantial payraises. Your experience is best for negotiating starting pay at a new job, and less so for trying to get more money out of your current employer. The kid was talking as if his roommate would be seeing pay raises of greater than 10% (what I would consider stellar) every year he worked for them (3%-6% depending on review seems to be standard).

 

[smellthejeta]

very true... I've heard on this board a lot of "there's no big money in aviation" which is true these days. However, 6 figure jobs in any industry require a lot of "paying dues" and working your way up.

I can name a six figure a year job in aviation that you can get with a 2 year degree and make the big bucks within 5 years of graduation.

 

[smellthejeta]

When all the BS is cleared up as to which airlines give a crap about what...this is my true point. You can never be mistaken in getting a 4 year degree.

I sincerely believe that if somebody won't put in the effort in school to achieve above average grades (3.0+) that he may actually be wasting his time and money. I submit myself as an example -- in the field in which I did my undergraduate studies, because of my subpar GPA, it is very difficult to find a job in my field.

 

[bobbysamd]

And again you have never answered “Why if the 4-yr degree is way to ensure you will get hired, how come non-4-yr degree guys are hired in front of the degreed pilots?

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said the degree ensures a job. Nothing will ensure a job. But the degree will certainly improve your chances of getting the interview.

There's your answer, Yip.

 

[pilotyip]

No it won't

A four-year degree does not guarantee an interview. More TJ PIC than the 4-yr degree guy, will get you an interview at 172 of the 177 interviewing that do not require or make the 4-yr thing preferred. BTW where is the list of the airlines hiring beside UPS and FedEx that make the degree a showstopper?

 

[bobbysamd]

My "TJPIC" is bigger than your "TJPIC," or, so much for the "whole-man" concept

A four-year degree does not guarantee an interview. More TJ PIC than the 4-yr degree guy, will get you an interview at 172 of the 177 interviewing that do not require or make the 4-yr thing preferred.

Is that an absolute, Yip? What about the other things sought after in the "whole-man" concept of hiring? Which is it, then, "TJPIC" or whole-man??

BTW where is the list of the airlines hiring beside UPS and FedEx that make the degree a showstopper?

As a practical matter, without it when it is clearly "preferred" (note how that sneaky little word pops in), it may as well be a "showstopper" for them, too. In other words, Yip, and, as a hiring authority, you would know this better than any of us poor, sorry (ex) career-builders, the quality of the applicant pool drives the overall hiring profile. Meaning, if the applicant pool is primarily comprised of college graduates, it is those folks who have the advantage.

To that end, once more, Yip, I direct your attention to the old FAPA Career Pilot magazine column, "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots." That column listed FAPA members whom the majors, nationals and turbojets recently hired. Educational background would be listed. I do not recall one pilot listed who had only high school. Most were college graduates or better, with the others having at least some college.

On the subject of FAPA, I stopped subscribing to Kit Darby materials/propaganda/sophistries/pie-in-the-sky many years ago, so, sorry, Yip, I don't have access to his "list."

 

[JediNein]

I didn't read through the entire thread either.

I did learn a very valuable lesson about college, something I wished I had known when I first encountered a miserable instructor.

The lesson is "how to drop a course."

Unlike high school where if you had a poor instructor you were stuck with the flaming jerk for a whole semester. That's not true in college. Drop the idiot and take a different class, even at the small private colleges.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein