Only have a Private & Hate College

[pilotyip]

For Nosehair you hit it exactly. You and I can be flamed together by the "If you don't do it the way I did, you will not make it" You and I have seen our share of guys succeed in the flying business without the highly esteemed 4-yr degree.

 

[mayday1]

Nose... I wouldn't take the position that everything you learn in college is "great stuff" and that all the little facts about psychology, accounting, etc. will make you "more educated." I would, however, say that you're ability to learn is honed, your presentation and communication skills are developed, possibly your understanding of particular subjects is enhanced.

Not to mention.. a common theme in this thread is the challenge in getting your degree... time, effort, boring classes, hard work, etc. Someone's ability to complete such a long-term endeavor speaks to their ability to commit to something and see it through to success and completion.

 

[cforst513]

I tried to go to college while being a flight instructor in my younger years, only because the airlines and military required that "degree". Since I was flight instructing, I studied psychology with the idea that it would make me a better flight instructor. Also, if my flying career was ended for a medical or whatever, I thought being a psychologist would be interesting. After a couple of years, I realized the "training" I was getting was actually just what a bunch of "doctors" (Freud and that bunch) had made up (theorized) about the human mind, and at the end of this college trip, I would be deemed a "psychologist", but there was no actual scientific proof of any of this material. I saw it as a great hoax on the public.
And through my life, forty plus years of flying to live, and living to fly, I have seen too many college-educated people who have been hoaxed in the same way. A head full of "Fluff" which they think is actual knowledge.
~Nose

ok, so he's a drop-out who didn't like his major. well, nosehair, why didn't you change your major to something a little more concrete, like english or geology? when you're holding a book or rock in your hand, it's a little heard to call them a "hoax". i go to a small liberal arts college, where i can major in broad subjects like "biology" or "English literature". if i had gone to ohio state or some other big school, i would have found 18 separate majors in botany ALONE. it's obvious that nosehair tried one thing and gave up. you can't do that and call yourself an expert, dishing out the advice that getting a 4 year degree means you're "running with the pack". at the very least, the knowledge (not fluff) you gain in college will serve to not only make you a more well-rounded individual, but will also build character by making you realize the value of working hard and the allmighty dollar. college isn't cheap, and no better will you recognize this then when you're paying for it yourself. my college costs about $37,000 a year, but luckily i worked hard in high school (by following the pack, of course. don't do well in high school!!!! it's what "they" want you to do!!! take it from me!!!) and was able to get some helpful scholarships and grants. college also is a great way to discover your true self, away from your parents watchful eye, and is a great way to network and make connections for your future.

so you and yip, while are entitled to your opinion, are not, in MY opinion, dispensing good advice. besides, you're 40+ years old, as you stated. you know a lot more than i do, except through experience and not an institution of higher learning. times are a-changing, my friend. you see how all the skilled labor positions are disappearing and going overseas? those jobs, not ALWAYS, but typically, are filled by those who possess a high school diploma or a G.E.D. Yes, as in all cases, there are exceptions and some will possess 2 and 4 year degrees, but the jobs of the future will require degrees. since big corporations are outsourcing, potential employees need to make themselves better prepared for the job market and desirable to employers here in America, and getting an edumacation (joke. jeez.) beyond high school is a great place to start. but again, that's just the humble opinion of a 21 year old who just got off a 12 hour shift on the docks of a large united states post office, working with individuals who do not possess degrees. how much are they making? $30/hr. but they have no opportunity for advancement. they will stay as workhorses until they retire, lugging 70+ lb. bags of mail around all day long. if it was up to me, i'd get my degree.

 

[pilotyip]

College is not the only place to develop skills to ensure a successful career. The narrow focus of the college only crowd on this board misleading. Become as ASE certified mechanic, like my brother in law, make 250K per year without a degree. Become a A&P mechanic with a two year degree, the local A&P school graduates have 2-3 jobs each to chose from, over ½ outside of the aviation industry.

 

[nosehair]

Yeah, let the games begin!

Mayday 1, you are right on the point that getting a college degree demonstrates your ability to start, struggle through, and complete a major project. There are many ways to do that. I never said don't go to college. I merely gave a different viewpoint.

cforst513, you have worked very hard for what you've got and you should be proud and hold on to that. You did it, and deserve to be congratulated.

Not going to college does not ban you to a life of labor with no hope of advancement. Each individual does that to him/herself. As I said, there are many professions which do not require a degree, and it is up to the individual to find his/her special gift. Many do it in college, many do not.

As I also said, there are many professions which do require college training, like botany, geology, etc, and if that is your interest, that is where you should be. I was speaking to a person who does not see himself on that track.

College is not an essential ingredient for persons who do not aspire to positions which do require the training recieved in college.

Most of my growing up life, and probably yours, college was seen as necessary to develop any kind of professional life, but this is a different world today. Culture is changing. We have become so intermeshed with technology that there will become more and more careers/professions in highly technical fields that don't require college, and yet provide good pay, upward mobility, and job satisfaction.

Oh, and by the way, we are also becoming more aware of the fact that not everything you learned in school is true.

I saw a program the other night on ETV which exposed the "discovery" of Piltdown man. The dicovered "bones" of a pre-historic man were exposed to be made up, planted, and "discovered", and a subsequent "history" of evolutionary man. Just another guy wanting to get his name in a book. We are finding more and more of this kind of thing. Facts which were taught as true are actually just one man's ideas, and every man is a human, with all the attendent emotions, ego's, and slanted opinions on everything. We all do it. I'm doing it right now, and so are you. Be aware of that. My ideas are mine and yours are yours, and somewhere in between is the truth.

 

[cforst513]

Become as ASE certified mechanic, like my brother in law, make 250K per year without a degree..

but how long does it take to get to that point? making $250K/year? i'm assuming a long time. just like in the ranks of pilots, you gotta pay your dues before you can make the big bucks. but hey, i can go to pharmacology school, become a pharmacist, and START OFF, age 22 or 23, making $80K/year. and it will go up from there. that's a lot of money. i almost crapped my pants when my roommate got a $45,000/year job, straight out of college, to be a systems analyst. to me, that is a lot of money, ESPECIALLY for a 22 year old.

not to lump your brother in with the other mechanics i have run into, but why does it seem that all the ones i used to go to (before i got my 'new' used car and now use the dealership) seemed to be... economically challeneged? either that or else they were the most frugal $250,000-aires that i have ever met. needless to say, get them outside the mechanics shop, and they did not fit the bill. of course, i know some hillbilly doctors, and i'm sure there are some hillbilly pilots too. but becoming ASE certified doesn't guarantee the big bucks. just like me being certified in CPR and first aid doesn't mean that beautiful women are going to stop breathing wherever i go and i must administer life-saving CPR, thus making the news AND saving a gorgeous woman's life... um... heh heh... ok, bad analogy.

anyways, i can say "sure, i'm a pilot, i am a captain of a 777, have been for 12 years, and i make $200,000." then you would say, "gee golly, sir, that is a lot of money. i wish i was a pilot. by the way, how old are you?" to which i would reply "59 years young." point of my worthless story? it takes time to get to the big money, so saying that becoming ASE certified and earning the big bucks is the way to go for some people, i'm just wondering how many of them actually make the big bucks, and for those that do make the big bucks, how old they are/long did it take for them to get to that point. just like how many pilots are actually making $200K/year? the large, LARGE majority are not, as i am sure the RJ guys can attest to (any new F/O's out there making $18K/year?). ok, i have to get ready for work. last day!!! i need a vacation from my christmas vacation, man. i'm BEAT.

 

[bobbysamd]

Misleading the misled?

College is not the only place to develop skills to ensure a successful career. The narrow focus of the college only crowd on this board misleading.

No, Yip, your promotion of the $100K high-school-only aviation career is misleading. Your promotion, pitched to highschoolers and teenagers, that this kind of money can be earned within ten years of graduating from high school and with no college, comes painfully close to being a sophism. Further, you never explain to how tread this "alternative" career path. There are always exceptions to every rule, but, without credentials, it's more likely a path to oblivion.

Become as ASE certified mechanic, like my brother in law, make 250K per year without a degree.

Not every auto tech, ASE certified or not, can earn $250K. What was his career path? Is he an employee of a garage or dealership and making that money? Or, did he start his own business? If so, wonderful, but we're talking about employees, not entrepeneurs. Entrepeneurs, as such, are not in this equation.

Become a A&P mechanic with a two year degree, the local A&P school graduates have 2-3 jobs each to chose from, over ½ outside of the aviation industry.

(emphasis added)

Did I just read degree?? In your first sentence, you say that "college is not the only place to develop skills to ensure a successful career." Yet, I'm reading how you are suggesting that two-year degree be earned for A&P. Do I detect a slight equivocation? Moreover, neither of the vocations you mention have "pilot" in them.

Of course, there are great jobs that can be had without college degrees - with many of them paying more than degreed positions. But, once more, for a pilot to maintain a level playing field with his/her competition. a four-year degree is part of the repertoire.

 

[Herman Bloom]

at the end of this college trip, I would be deemed a "psychologist", but there was no actual scientific proof of any of this material

Don't you need a graduate degree to be called a "psychologist". Sounds like you didn't even bother to learn anything about the process of becoming one.

Oh, and by the way, we are also becoming more aware of the fact that not everything you learned in school is true.

No. When I went to school and sat in those "fluffy" english/history classes, I learned precisely that "not everything you learn here is true". That's what a good education does...it opens you mind to the possibility that you may have to think for yourself every now and again.

Your opinion in certainly valid, but I would caution someone who has already made the leap into college to stick it out. Besides, having a degree will help you get along in life WHEN (not if) the flying business drops out from under you.

 

[pilotyip]

i almost crapped my pants when my roommate got a $45,000/year job, straight out of college, to be a systems analyst.

Exactly, that is why you go to college, to develope a skill that has a marketable value. College has nothing to do with flying an airplane, it can be learned anywhere. The ASE and A&P example was aimed at the you must go to college message. You can make yourself marketable without college. Trade schools are overlooked by the college only crowd. BTW my B in law owns the Muffler Shop.

 

[ERAUBrat3]

I'm going to ERAU-PRC right now and have no problems with the school or the education I'm receiving....except for the customer service of the flightline. They treat you like crap even though you pay over $250 for a Seminole per hour. Thankfully I got out and switched my major to "ASP" which is a general degree + 3 minors. My minors are in safety, aeronautical science, and meteorology. The classes are interesting and outside of the general ed requirement classes (such as physics and calculus) the teachers know what they're doing and have YEARS of experience.

Granted I'll have debt out my rear-end, (save the flames) I will feel good knowing that I have a degree that I can apply to anything in the aviation field, should something happen to my flying career.

 

[FN FAL]

College is boring, I learn new stuff, but it's not stuff I am interested in, and it sucks. Why do we have to keep on doing stuff we don't like if we could just do aviation only, and thats it. Do schools like ERAU make you take lame courses like "Contemporary Literature" with the likes of Michael Moore? I mean that is total garbage.

Your interview will be very intersting. On the interview board will be many who sacrificed to serve country during time of need. You, however, will be whining about yadda, yadda, yadda. You will be found out and discarded...no matter how much you liked airplanes.

 

[Corona]

I think some of you are trying to educate the ineducable. If some want to quite college/marriage/career/parenthood or whatever with considerably less than the ol' college try, I say let 'em.

It doesn't take much effort to find the requirements for a successful professional career, and those with ambition and drive accomplish those requirements.

Those that just want to put a check mark in a box, as FN FAL pointed out, will not succeed regardless of the boxes checked. Career checklists do not ignite passion.

My education and professional experience have been mostly in concert with MY goals and interests, not those of some possible future employer.

I can't imagine doing it any other way.

C

 

[Metro752]

Your interview will be very intersting. On the interview board will be many who sacrificed to serve country during time of need. You, however, will be whining about yadda, yadda, yadda. You will be found out and discarded...no matter how much you liked airplanes.

I'm 18, and in this day and age, I haven't had a chance to serve my country. I was a week away from MEPS, 94 on the ASVAB, going into the army, then I decided college would probably be a better idea...besides the fact that my recruiter was called into some special kill the drug lord thing. I was going into MOS 97B/96B, whatever those were, Intel & Interogator.

FN-FAL, I read about your family in one of your posts, and I think that you're a great American.

I DID NOT GET THAT OTHER GUY BANNED, I HAVE NO IDEA what he posted, I haven't been on the board in a day or two. So don't be pissed at me about it, please.

I meant no real disrespect to the good muslims.

I'm going to college, I made a whiney post about it. Have any of you who went, ever complained about college?

 

[bobbysamd]

Ah, hah!!

The ASE and A&P example was aimed at the you must go to college message. You can make yourself marketable without college. Trade schools are overlooked by the college only crowd.

. . . . because, in this context, we're talking about pilots, and the debate, again, is about building a piloting career without a college degree.

BTW my B in law owns the Muffler Shop.

Ah, hah!! Things are different when you are a business owner v. an employee. The sky's the limit when you are an entrepeneur. The risks are also greater as well.

 

[pilotyip]

No, the A&P example was aimed at the "You must go to college in case your pilot career takes at hit for any reason and you have a fallback way of making a living". The college crowd keeps posting this fallback as the reason for college. 4-yr degree not required for fall back. A skill is required, but not a four year degree. The 4-yr degree is where this started 2 years ago. You do not need a four-year degree to succeed as a pilot.

 

[bobbysamd]

<sigh>

You do not need a four-year degree to succeed as a pilot.

Yes, we are back to where we started, Yip, with you arguing exception.

There will always be those who are hired without a four-year degree. But they are exceptions and the minority. Counseling a would-be pilot accordingly is dangerous and irresponsible. Once more, the four-year degree qualifies a pilot for any job.

 

[pilotyip]

Coming hiring boom

The pilot with the flight time will get hired into a good job before the pilot who spends 4 yrs in college. You get hired because of your flight time. Check back with me in the summer of 2007 and see what is happening.

 

[ERAUBrat3]

I'd rather hear that from human resources than a check pilot..sorry "captain".

Granted you may not need it to be a successful pilot, if you go through major changes in your life and you don't have one, you'll sure wish you did. It's an insurance policy in a way. A hiring captain for Continental told me that yes, people do get hired with the majors without a college degree...once they have 7000+ hours. An America West captain told me the same, and added that a college degree would show that you have a drive to learn and succeed, rather than cut corners.

Sure that may be their opinions...but if they're doing the hiring I'd probably want to fit in the category of what they like to see.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring boom kool-aid

The pilot with the flight time will get hired into a good job before the pilot who spends 4 yrs in college. You get hired because of your flight time. Check back with me in the summer of 2007 and see what is happening.

As Ronald Reagan once said, "There you go again." What hiring boom? The aviation business has changed fundamentally since the last boom and the boom before that. E.g., fewer majors seats and furloughees from the majors waiting to be recalled. Perhaps there may be a few new pilots hired to fill seats retirees left behind. And, you know, who will be hired?? Pilots with college degrees. They might have the flight time, yes, but their degrees will open the door.

P.S. Yip, you don't get hired because of your flight time. That is baloney. My totals, at the left, far exceeded regional requirements of the day, especially in the multiengine category. I sent resumes to regionals for years and, yes, did have some interviews, but couldn't interest any regional in me.

 

[pilotyip]

brat3 splain to me, how is logging 5000 hours of Part TJ PIC is cutting corrners?

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring in their own image

I'd rather hear that from human resources than a check pilot..sorry "captain".

In all fairness to Yip, he hires pilots at his company. Having said that,

Sure that may be their opinions...but if they're doing the hiring I'd probably want to fit in the category of what they like to see.

It is said that those who hire, hire in their own image.

Yes. Someone else who "gets it."

 

[pilotyip]

Truly hire in our own image

It is said that those who hire, hire in their own image


What does that mean?


Exactly we do hire in our own image. We know a college degree or lack of college degree does not define a man as a person. At USA Jet like all other opened minded airlines i.e. AirTran, Spirit, JB, SWA and all the regionals do not define the presence of a piece of paper as the ultimate definition of a successful candidate. Great airlines look at the whole man concept, what does this person bring to our company. There are pilots with degrees that fill that concept as well as pilots without college degrees. A great personality, a solid record of achievement, not necessarily defined by college, and a convincing desire to bring skills to our company are what will sell us on hiring a person. It is not a HR decision, they are involved in the recommendation process, but an operations board makes the decision.

 

[ERAUBrat3]

Southwest Airlines
Education:
Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred.

http://www.southwest.com/careers/pilots.html

Bad example.

 

[pilotyip]

stuff

Brat do you know what preferred means? It means preferred but not required. Check pervious posts on SWA hiring and you will see posts from SWA pilots hired without degrees. Plus you never splained how the 121 PIC is cutting corners

 

[ERAUBrat3]

Have we lost the topic at all here? I don't think EXplaining my point would do any good, so I'm not going to try. I'll just go ahead and say 'you win' because God knows you'll come back with an experienced answer and requesting that I EXplain myself more.

We're all experts on this, aren't we?

Thanks for your support bobbysamd, unfortunately I think our points fall on deaf ears. Their loss.

 

[mayday1]

Brat do you know what preferred means? It means preferred but not required. Check pervious posts on SWA hiring and you will see posts from SWA pilots hired without degrees. Plus you never splained how the 121 PIC is cutting corners

Yip.. "preferred" means that those with a degree will likely have the advantage, as well as fit the profile of what the airline wants. Yes, they will hire without one, but as Bobbysamd has said, arguing exception is very misguided.

 

[TonyC]

... After a couple of years, I realized the "training" I was getting was actually just what a bunch of "doctors" (Freud and that bunch) had made up (theorized) about the human mind, ... but there was no actual scientific proof of any of this material. I saw it as a great hoax on the public.

Perhaps you don't realize it, nosehair, but you just admitted that you were educated. If only everyone were as well-educated about the great hoax.

Most graduates find that their perceptions of what they intend to learn is somewhat different from what they ultimately do learn. Often times, the difference is profound. Ultimately, though, the larger experience is more important anyway. The process itself provides the most useful education of all.

 

[Goose Egg]

Over our series of debates, I have learned to take what yip says just a little more seriously because he is by virtue of his position a de facto policy maker within the industry. College is not an absolute requirement, and good jobs can be had without the degree.

However, I would be remiss if I did not recommend college as a universally beneficial activity no matter what your career goals. In short, it can't hurt you.

For what it is worth, I'm glad I have my "piece of paper."

 

[qmaster3]

Have we lost the topic at all here? I don't think EXplaining my point would do any good, so I'm not going to try. I'll just go ahead and say 'you win' because God knows you'll come back with an experienced answer and requesting that I EXplain myself more.

We're all experts on this, aren't we?

Thanks for your support bobbysamd, unfortunately I think our points fall on deaf ears. Their loss.

It's those "deaf ears" that hire.

 

[smellthejeta]

My turn

A few thoughts...

To the guy who said that making $45k right out of school was good money, $45k might be good money for a college graduate, but it ain't sh!t in a metro area with a high COL. Trust me. I know.

To the guy who works on docks at the USPS: $60k is decent money (especially if you can make that kind of money where housing is cheap), and you will find many people who will be content with a paycheck like that until retirement. My parents are college educated, and I'm not sure they make that kind of money combined. I don't know what the retirement benefits are there, but if they're *anything* you will find little turnover in that job.

As far as the need for college, I am speaking from a "been there done that" point of view. I submit that if you know that you won't put in the effort necessary to earn above average grades (above a 3.0), don't waste your money or your parents' money. At least don't do it at a school that will saddle you with high loan payments. Why? Right now, few decent employers will look at me and it is that much harder to get into graduate school. Yeah, I really think that if you won't pull a 3.0 you're probably wasting your time and money.

And to our friend Yip: Yip, I know of a career path where you can make six figures a year within 5 years of graduating from school, and all you need is a two year degree. Career path looks like this: Got to school. Get decent grades. Take a test. Do good on test. Graudate. Wait for phone call.

I'm starting to see his point as well, and if he actually comes out and says that going to college is a waste of time, then I would have to really disagree with him.