OK, who's got the gouge and the guts...

[onthebeach]

...to post the experience profiles of the most recent Wal*Mart Aviation new hires?

 

[Timebuilder]

I'd be interested to hear your (the newbies) experiences, accurately and dispassionately.

On the other side of the coin, I received a nice note from Jenny Ford (my second such letter in a year and a half) saying that they currently are using a standard of 2,000 TT, which I did not know when I sent in my resume.

Why didn't I know? Remember all of the trouble I had just getting some basic info? I found it just a little bit frustrating. No harm done, though.

I'll bet it's a great company to work for, especially considering today's aviation environmment of shrinking jobs and falling salaries. Any info that can guide and inform the rest of us would be welcome.

What have you learned about upgrades? How many Lears will be added this year? How is the lifestyle? Are pilots treated equally, based on expereince, or is there a culture of racial and gender preferences? How would you describe the corporate culture? Was WalMart your first choice, or a fallback position because your first choice was no longer hiring?

The floor is yours, so let's hear it.

Please.

 

[uscpilot]

Timebuilder left out the most important question, are there employee discounts? How much? I really need some tube socks, BVD's (the old ones have some slicks), and an icee.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe they're too busy.

 

[100-1/2]

WAL-MART

If the flight department requirements are anything like working in a store, you must be:

1. Partially Gimpy and/or legally disabled, yet, able to obtain a FAA Second Class Medical (barely)

2. ONLY a High School Graduate or received a GED

3. Able to work alot of overtime, every holiday and weekend without complaining or filing "frivolous" lawsuits against them for only paying you for 40 hours a week regardless of how much more you actually worked

4. A "yes-man" (or woman)

5. 50 pounds or more overweight and/or a minority

 

[Timebuilder]

I think you're mistaken.

Those are the Pep Boys requirements!

 

[mainah]

Just add doesn't speak English to the list and they could qualify for any fast food chain.

 

[onthebeach]

let's bring it back to the top....

n/t

 

[onthebeach]

one more time

n/t

 

[2000flyer]

On the beach,

I think your best bet would be to search the previous Wal Mart posts, find the 2 or 3 that work there and post on this board and send them a PM. Doesn't look like you're getting anywhere with the thread.

Good luck!

2000Flyer

 

[passion4flying]

Everybody,

There is really no need for gouge or guts when it comes to Wal-Mart. We are all satisfied to be here flying in this economy. The new hires are all off in school. To put Wal-Mart very simply, we are a corporate flight department that works for a company that has their own special culture. Yes, sometimes we have growing pains, but give me a department that doesn't and I give you fantasy island (the new one). The future looks very bright for us. Continued growth with more airplanes and more upgrades in the future. We have a job with a high level of security. As far as I am concerned, that is worth quite a lot. We have a new Chief Pilot that everyone is backing, and he is trying to get ALOT done the best way he can. It really is not a bad place. If you have any more questions, just ask. Timebuilder, I do not think their is a conspiracy of silence on our ends. We are just the busiest corporate flight department in the world. Each airplane we own gets about 900 hours a year put on them, with almost 80 pilots all flying about 60 hours a month. It takes alot of energy to keep an organization such as this up and running. Like I said, any specific questions, just ask.

Passion

 

[Gulfstream 200]

720 hrs/yr flying corporate??!!!

yikes, thats a lot!

you folks ARE busy...

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder, I do not think their is a conspiracy of silence on our ends.

I wasn't trying to suggest such a thing. I'm only suggesting that I have had more trouble than I would expect in getting direct answers to direct questions. Your help is appreciated.

Currently, this is what I am wondering, from my earlier post:


What have you learned about upgrades? How many Lears will be added this year? How is the lifestyle? Are pilots treated equally, based on expereince, or is there a culture of racial and gender preferences? How would you describe the corporate culture? Was WalMart your first choice, or a fallback position because your first choice was no longer hiring?

I'd also like to hear from those who are off at school, when they have time.

 

[onthebeach]

OK, passion4flying...

...first of all, thanks for surfacing and for re-stating that you folks are working for a great flight department, and that you are committed to being open and honest.

I know you and Reba and a lot of the crew do stay tuned to this board, so it should be a simple matter for those of us who are interested in working for Wal*Mart Aviation to get some answers, which will allow us to assess how realistic our chances for future employment are. This will be to our mutual benefit.

I understand that you, the crew in general, and the new hires in particular may have been briefed not to post on this board (or elsewhere) concerning the results of the last round of hiring. If that is the case, too bad for you, and for all of us. You (or someone else) could send me a PM, but I suppose you can't be sure that I'm not somebody on the inside monitoring the board. Again, too bad for all of us.

In any event, my original question had to do, in general terms, with the experience profile of the recent new hires.

Since you may be reluctant to speak generally, let me get specific:

--How many people were brought on board?

--What were their ages?

--What were the numbers, by gender?

--How many had prior military flying experience?

--How many had prior corporate flying experience?

--How many had experience in Lears?

--If any furloughed airline pilots were hired, were they required to resign seniority?

That's about all I want to know.

Now, the ball is in your court, and I don't mean this in an offensive way, but it is time for you (or someone else) to "put up or shut up."

Plainly speaking, that is: please do not reply with any platitudes about the company, the department, or flying in general (because frankly, that kind of thing insults my intelligence and that of any professional pilot). Also, please do not attempt to take "the moral high ground" and state that this is some kind of privileged information. That alone will speak volumes, and not in a good way, about the atmosphere in the company and the flight department.

Thanks & have a nice day.

 

[passion4flying]

There are really no big secrets here. We do try to have a diverse group of pilots, but not at the expense of safety. This is the way we did our hiring process. We certainly took a very diverse group of individuals and brought them in to the interview. After the interview process we hired the best qualified individual. I do not have the exact stats on the new hires, since I was not on the hiring committee and I have met only 2 or 3 of the individuals. At the interview, it really does not matter what gender, race, background or any other diverse qualification. What matters is the person qualified and can do the job, and can that person fit into this unique organization. Doesn't matter if you have 2000TT or 10000TT. It really doesn't. As for your questions on the future. Nobody knows. I doubt if even the CEO of Wal-Mart knows. It depends on so many different variables. It depends on the stock price, our profit for the year, our growth and needs of the company. We all do know this, the company is growing by leaps and bounds and common sense tells you that the flight department has to grow with it. We do typically lag behind the company but we do have to grow and catch up. It should tell the smart ones something that we just hired 10 people in one shot. Can you think of a corporate department that allready has 70 pilots and picked up 10 more. Like I said, we are not told anything about new airplanes our upgrades. The new people were told that upgrade time can be anywhere from 18 months to 5 years. It depends on attrition, economy, needs of the company and so many other variables. I am not sure what else to tell you. It is not all a bed or roses, no job ever is. But I fly a nice learjet and get paid a salary for it. You can't beat that when there are literally tens of thousands of pilots out of work. If you have any other thoughts let me know.

Passion

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks, but I still have these questions:

>>What have you learned about upgrades?
How is the lifestyle?
Are pilots treated equally, based on expereince, or is there a culture of racial and gender preferences?
How would you describe the corporate culture?
Was WalMart your first choice, or a fallback position because your first choice was no longer hiring?

I'm a little curious about this:

We certainly took a very diverse group of individuals and brought them in to the interview. After the interview process we hired the best qualified individual.

Isn't it the usual method to bring in the best qualified individuals for the interview, and hire from there, choosing the pilots based on their ability? To the best of my knowlege, this is what Dr. King was saying on my 13 inch black and white televison in 1963.

 

[passion4flying]

Timebuilder,

I think you need to spend more time away from your computer. I did try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I am beginning to think you just like to stir up trouble. Let me try again. First was upgrades. I do believe I said that nobody knows because it depends on a wide variety of issues. I can not say it plainer than that. Second culture of race. I again said that we hired for the best individual. Yes brought in a cross section of people to satisfy the sue happy discrimination hollering fools (don't be one). But we did hire based on ability and experience. I believe I have allready said these things. Third was culture, wal-mart is a company that believes in spending money wisely. They do not waste money on 40 million dollar airplanes when a 4 million dollar airplane will do. Their is alot to our culture, it is based on 3 different principals. Respect for the individual, Service to our Costumers and Strive for excellence. Those are the 3 basic beliefs of the company. They do really try to follow those beliefs. We have a management team in place that is trying their hardest to do just that. Next question was first choice or fall-back. I was flying freight in some very old airplanes. Wal-mart offered me a job flying a learjet and I took it. Simple as that. You really need to look at the economy out there. Why would you ask a question like that. With alot of pilots out of work, everybody is happy as a clam to be here. Of course we might loose some people if the airlines are hiring and that is normal. Different pilots have different goals.

Again timebuilder, I don't see a question in your last statement. All I see is someone trying to stir up trouble. Wal-mart is not for everyone, but we fly airplanes and get paid to do so. If people do not like that, they can go somewhere else. I don't mean to jump you so, but I don't see alot of constructive questions in your posts. If you have some agenda, maybe you should let us all know what that is.

Passion

 

[Timebuilder]

First was upgrades. I do believe I said that nobody knows because it depends on a wide variety of issues. I can not say it plainer than that

I'll make it simple. Regarding the last person to upgrade, how long did it take? Was it generally agreed that this was the next person in line, or was another method used to determine the upgrade?

Their is alot to our culture, it is based on 3 different principals.

Good. This is the first answer I have received to this question in 16 months. Thank you.

Why would you ask a question like that. With alot of pilots out of work, everybody is happy as a clam to be here. Of course we might loose some people if the airlines are hiring and that is normal. Different pilots have different goals.

Why would I ask? Probably BECAUSE of the current state of aviation. I'm curious if the people who work in the flight departemt wanted this job barring all others, excluding an airline job. I'd like to know if this is the kind of position that people aspire to because it is their corporate dream job, or because they didn't get hired by Coca Cola. I thought it was relevant. Nothing personal.

Again timebuilder, I don't see a question in your last statement.

It's not a question, just a reaction to your explanation of the hiring process. You said the first step was to bring in diverse individuals, then to hire the best qualified. In my fifty years, I was always told that in oder for equality to be served, you bring in the best qualified people without regard to race, religion, or national origin. I grew up during the civil rights movement, and my family was the first in our area to make cub scouting a reality for a poor black kid from our "poor section" of town. I'm not looking for trouble at all. I DO believe that if someone is going to engage in discrimination, no matter how good the intention, they should be up front about it to prospective employees. I think a lot of needless paper could be saved if folks know whether or not they would be treated equally, or seen as a libility to a diversity program that mandates that only diverse individuals will be brought in for an interview.

I think that's only fair, but I have seen a lot of fairness falling by the wayside over the past several years in order to have a workforce that contains the right mix of politically correct faces.

I hope that isn't the case with WalMart.

 

[passion4flying]

Timebuilder,

Look, I have tried as honestly as I can to let the public know what goes on here. I don't know what else to tell you. I gave you an example as to how we handle racial diversity in our hiring process. I tried to tell you there is no way of knowing upgrade times. The last people that upgraded were here 3 years. But that doesn't tell you anything because we didn't upgrade for 2 years prior to that. And the upgrading was done very quickly before that because of a booming economy and a higher turn-over rate. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to how often we get upgrades. It depends on a wide variety of factors. If you are looking for a department that does everything perfectly like racial diversity and hiring and upgrading, I do not think you will ever find it. You just have to take the bad with the good. And hopefully the good outways the bad. I promise you that no deparment will ever do things perfect, because we have 80 pilots plus management who have their own idea of what is perfect. Well, me goal has been to inform people. I hope I have done that. Happy flying all.

Passion

 

[Timebuilder]

I would never expect perfect.

I have a reasonable expectation of at least an attempt to be fair.

Now, since passion has completed his mission, did anyone who has been recently hired at WalMart applied there because they were your first choice?

What are pilots saying there? Do they feel they are being treated fairly, or do they feel that non-flying related standards are being used in the management of the pilot group?

Thanks in advance.

 

[p.b.]

We do try to have a diverse group of pilots, but not at the expense of safety. This is the way we did our hiring process. We certainly took a very diverse group of individuals and brought them in to the interview. After the interview process we hired the best qualified individual. I do not have the exact stats on the new hires, since I was not on the hiring committee and I have met only 2 or 3 of the individuals. At the interview, it really does not matter what gender, race, background or any other diverse qualification. What matters is the person qualified and can do the job, and can that person fit into this unique organization. Doesn't matter if you have 2000TT or 10000TT.

This sounds to me like, "we interviewed a good cross-section of minorities, but in the end, for safety, we hired 10 white guys". I could be 100% wrong since I know next to nothing about the corporate culture at Walmart, but the vague and round-about answers you give are just as bad as not replying at all!

Now I am curious about this upgrade thing. This may or may not be what timebuilder is asking, but here's a try. -

Are pilots upgraded in the order in which they join the company, or are there inside tracks and personal agendas which affect the upgrade process?

Please don't answer that question with your "there's no way to know what will happen" speech, if you don't want to answer just don't reply.

Thank you in advance.

 

[banned username 2]

Timebuilder,

How many job offers have you had with all your lear jet time? You seem to be in a position to pick choose and refuse. Or do you just have a personal hang-up about Wal-Mart?

I don't think anyone with 1,632 hours TT is in a position to "Pick, Choose and Refuse" any job offers. I think Timebuilder realizes that if he gets a job offer he'd best grab it quick... This is a buyers market right now.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree.

I have a problem, if you want to call it that, with the general unwillingness of pilots at the company to share much information about the operations or the management style. I'd like to know if a company is not interested in hiring another white male. If they are not, then they can save everyone a lot of time and trouble by owning up to it.

Other than that, I am perplexed at the lack of clear information which is readily available from other pilots at places like airnet, netjets, flight options, etc, but for some reason not available without a lot of home dentistry in the case of WalMart.

I am not able to pick and choose. Although I have a fair amount of expereince in the aircraft, I do not meet the TT requirement. If I had been able to find out that there WAS a TT requirement BEFORE I applied, then I would have waited until I met the requirement. Unfortunately, no one was forthcoming with the information until after the deadline for resumes in May.

Knowlege is power, and there sure is a lack of power in this discussion.

How sad.

 

[NJA Capt]

I have a problem...with the general unwillingness of pilots at the company to share much information.

The fact that noone is talking speaks volumes.

If you want first hand info, go to your local FBO and "talk" to the Walmart pilots. Perhaps they have a company policy against providing info on websites.

 

[JimNtexas]

--How many people were brought on board?

--What were their ages?

--What were the numbers, by gender?

--How many had prior military flying experience?

--How many had prior corporate flying experience?

--How many had experience in Lears?

Gee whiz, you are asking for a whole lot of very specific HR information. I don't blame you for asking, but you should not be disappointed if pilots from Walmart (or any other company) are not able to provide that level of detail on a message board.

I don't know anything about working for Walmart, but at every company I've ever worked at it would be a big no-no for a line employee to go public with a lot of detailed HR information related to who is and isn't hired.

There is a large and growing pack of lawyers who are full time dedicated to the sole purpose of sueing Walmart for anything and everything. Walmart people need to be extra careful about speaking for their company out of channels.

We should be very grateful that some of the Walmart pilots were able to post at all.

 

[banned username 2]

I don't think anyone with 1,632 hours TT is in a position to "Pick, Choose and Refuse" any job offers. I think Timebuilder realizes that if he gets a job offer he'd best grab it quick... This is a buyers market right now.

Rubbernekk,

I didn't mean this as a slam against Timebuilder, I was saying that I think you are assuming that he is in a position to pick and choose, which he is not, certainly not in this job market.

 

[Timebuilder]

Gee whiz, you are asking for a whole lot of very specific HR information. I don't blame you for asking, but you should not be disappointed if pilots from Walmart (or any other company) are not able to provide that level of detail on a message board.

I don't think we'll get our wish list of info, but going back to the post from a few months ago, this is what I would have said to help out my fellow pilots, were I an employee who was looking to get some resumes in to my HR deprtment:

" Hi there, folks. I work for WalMart, and we are looking for pilots to interview. We have lots of white male pilots and some PO'd minorities who like to sue us, so we have a problem. We need to interview a bunch of non-white men and some women to indemnify us against future lawsuits. You need 2,000 TT as a minimum. Lear experience is helpful, but if you are a minority female, we will go to great lengths to get you a job here. We've been going through chief pilots as if we were Coca Cola, and people have quit in disgust. Of course, everyone can send in a resume, but we won't interview you without 2,000 TT, and we are looking to hire some qualified minorities."

Then, I'd go on with the happy face stuff about being home a lot, how nice it is in Arkansas, and what a great company it is to work for, etc.

Now, to be truthful, I might not have been quite this blunt, but I would have been honest about what was the company's interest, and the kind of employee that best fit "our" needs.

This isn't an indictment of WalMart. I have worked for a company with 800 stores who hired a a very large percentage of entry level retail workers, and I have seen the litigious nature, along with the high incidence of theft and personal problems, including harassment, threats, and a bunch of other nonsense. It's hard to run a large company where most of your employees are not "professionals", in the conventional sense of the word.

This isn't based on any particular info, but I have friends who are involved with several corporate positions, and I know some important managers at several companies through the voice over work I have done for them. The "lawsuit lottery" is a big game in town, and the average person is always more of the "loser" than the company that is being sued.

I just think it's a shame that no one is willing to speak up and correct the rumors with a good dose of recent facts.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

OK...

maybe the story should read:

- Large comapnies LIKE to try and make thier pilot groups look more diverse, it just makes sense today. YES, women and minorities have an upper hand when it comes to securing interviews etc.... Thats been the nature for years now, do yourself a favor....GET OVER IT.

Fighting the system will just make you bitter, which you will not be able to hide at YOUR next interview!

and please...like ANY company is going to share thier HR and Hiring info with you!

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe.

I persoanlly don't care if it shows at an interview. This is for a very novel reason: I want to be hired, after being equally qualified, for nothing more than the content of my character, just as was promised by the civil rights movement and the "women's movement".

Anything else is still discrimination, and should be opposed just as vigiliantly as any other kind.

If it is not, it discredits the entire idea of equality, and replaces it with acceptable discrimination.

So, if you want to discriminate, have the courtesy and the guts to say so, and I'll save you the fax paper.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sure I like your points, they are, however, very irrelevent.

Just gotta play the game by the existing rules! Thats all you can do.

And Please, to think you have anything going against you in corporate aviation by being a white male (my guess..) is just plain crazy. White Males make up 99.9% of corp aviation, far more than the airlines.

Keep in mind, they know your name, age, etc when you get the interview (resume). Its not your gender or race that gets you the JOB, its your personality.

All I can suggest is let it go, adapt, and move on with a smile!

then again, I was never too good at advice!