Ok ALPA WTF

[JustaNumber]

I will take a stab at it. JB had a wild dream that because he was in the same union as Delta and then his company was made a subsidiary that he and his cohorts should have a spot on the Delta seniority list. Dalpa disagreed and some of the yahoos formed the rjdc. Whether JB was part of that or not is not the point. His loud mouth got him forever blackballed at Delta, and for that matter most majors due to his direct/inderect involvement with the rjdc. Now he is senior at a sub-contractor and bitter about what could have been. Had he not been such a loud mouth, he could have easily moved to Delta in 2007-2008 timeframe like ACL. ACL played it smart, plugged along, kept his ear to the ground and got hired. Now it is ALPAs fault JBs career did not turn out as planned.

Not that Joe needs defending, but let's say Dalpa had not disagreed with Joe. The industry sure would be a much better place to work, for all pilots, don't you think?

 

[PCL_128]

Not that Joe needs defending, but let's say Dalpa had not disagreed with Joe. The industry sure would be a much better place to work, for all pilots, don't you think?

Joe wanted something that was completely unreasonable. No mainline group in their right mind would give him what he wanted.

 

[Speedtape]

Well every membership does give ALPA more lobbying power. I did not mean to be offensive. ALPA does a great job negotiating our contracts, filing grievances and fighting for safety. ASA has one of the best ALPA unions out there. In the last three years QOL at ASA has improved greatly.

But yes, the membership in itself seems like an illusion when ALPA revokes it over 7 dollars and instantly gives membership status back once outstanding debt is serviced... very disillusioning.

There is an old saying, if you want to play, you gotta pay! And, in the Mortgage business, if you want to stay, you gotta pay!

Try short changing your Mortgage company $7 for a couple of months and see what happens!

 

[701EV]

Joe wanted something that was completely unreasonable. No mainline group in their right mind would give him what he wanted.

PCL128 YOU ARE UNBELIEVABLE!

You mean if JM wanted date of hire he was going to get?

Put down the FCKN crack pipe!

Hell even NW/DL merger didn't get date of hire. What makes you think 3000 ASA/Comair pilots to 10,000 DL pilots would have even come close to date of hire. It would have been a staple and we know it, nothing else!

The Delta MEC chairman (Chuck U Giambuso) showed us didn't he. He gave away 55% if his flying to DCI!

Turn the page on that BS!

701EV

 

[CFI2766]

Wow! You must be new here.If and when Joe does reply to this, you better grab a cooler and pull up a chair. LOL.
I will say, it will all be valid though.Not trying to bust your balls, I just got a chuckle out of that one.[/QUOTE]

Thought I'd give the guy a chance to speak his mind. There are plenty of posters on here who hate his guts. Why?

Some of the things Joe posts are valid, intelligent posts. Some are not. In my book, that makes him pretty similar to everyone who wastes time on this FI endeavor, including myself.

 

[CFI2766]

Not that Joe needs defending, but let's say Dalpa had not disagreed with Joe. The industry sure would be a much better place to work, for all pilots, don't you think?

I don't know the specifics, but wouldn't even a staple, and then no resultant DCI 'portfolio', have been better for both the Delta and ASA/Comair pilot groups?


FWIW, I'm NOT trying to flame. I know, it's rare on FI, but I'm trying to find actual facts.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Wow! You must be new here.If and when Joe does reply to this, you better grab a cooler and pull up a chair. LOL.
I will say, it will all be valid though.Not trying to bust your balls, I just got a chuckle out of that one.

Thought I'd give the guy a chance to speak his mind. There are plenty of posters on here who hate his guts. Why?

Some of the things Joe posts are valid, intelligent posts. Some are not. In my book, that makes him pretty similar to everyone who wastes time on this FI endeavor, including myself.[/QUOTE]

LOL. Fair enough!
Your right, there are those on here that hate his guts. Those are mostly the main liners that know what he says is valid. And their afraid of that truth!

 

[FDJ2]

I don't know the specifics, but wouldn't even a staple, and then no resultant DCI 'portfolio', have been better for both the Delta and ASA/Comair pilot groups?


FWIW, I'm NOT trying to flame. I know, it's rare on FI, but I'm trying to find actual facts.

Here's a fact, if ALPA had agreed to a PID there still would have been no requirement for DAL to merge ASA/CMR/DAL.

Had Joe and his buddies negotiated successorship language in their respective PWA's requiring seniority integration if ASA or CMR were acquired, then that would have been a different story, but they didn't. The PID was not called for, because at the end of the day there was no merger.

Neither the ASA or CMR MEC's ever suggested that a staple would have been acceptable, because they wanted better than a staple. They wanted a seniority grab. When the seniority grab failed, the RJDC and CMR MEC attempted to use furloughed pilots as hostages to force scope concessions on the mainline. Fairly disgusting.

Joe and his buddies at the RJDC also attempted to litigate their way on to the DAL seniority list and filed a lawsuit demanding one list. As soon as mainline furloughs were announced they withdrew that requirement from their lawsuit and instead focussed their litigation on making scope illegal and lining their pockets with $$$ at the expense of every ALPA pilot.

Luckily for all of us their lawsuit failed miserably and the RJDC threw in the towel when they couldn't back up any of their frivolous claims against ALPA.

 

[701EV]

Here's a fact, if ALPA had agreed to a PID there still would have been no requirement for DAL to merge ASA/CMR/DAL.

Had Joe and his buddies negotiated successorship language in their respective PWA's requiring seniority integration if ASA or CMR were acquired, then that would have been a different story, but they didn't. The PID was not called for, because at the end of the day there was no merger.

Neither the ASA or CMR MEC's ever suggested that a staple would have been acceptable, because they wanted better than a staple. They wanted a seniority grab. When the seniority grab failed, the RJDC and CMR MEC attempted to use furloughed pilots as hostages to force scope concessions on the mainline. Fairly disgusting.

Joe and his buddies at the RJDC also attempted to litigate their way on to the DAL seniority list and filed a lawsuit demanding one list. As soon as mainline furloughs were announced they withdrew that requirement from their lawsuit and instead focussed their litigation on making scope illegal and lining their pockets with $$$ at the expense of every ALPA pilot.

Luckily for all of us their lawsuit failed miserably and the RJDC threw in the towel when they couldn't back up any of their frivolous claims against ALPA.

FDJ2

Simple question, In the big picture should DALPA have put DL-ASA-Comair together? So we wouldn't have the DCI problems you have today?

701EV

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2

Simple question, In the big picture should DALPA have put DL-ASA-Comair together? So we wouldn't have the DCI problems you have today?

701EV

DALPA couldn't force a merger that wasn't going to happen. DAL bought ASA and CMR, but DAL was never obligated to merge either company. DALPA didn't have the authority, nor did ALPA to require a merger.

If there had been a merger, DAL still could have retained DCI and the portfolio of small jet providers. Merging ASA/CMR with DAL wouldn't have made any difference.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Thought I'd give the guy a chance to speak his mind. There are plenty of posters on here who hate his guts. Why?

Because he's one bitter asswipe who got spanked by the courts and can't deal with it. His constant vitrol speaks volumes of how he is frustrated in his go nowhere career and blames everyone but himself. Much easier to point the finger than look in the mirror, right?

Some of the things Joe posts are valid, intelligent posts. Some are not. In my book, that makes him pretty similar to everyone who wastes time on this FI endeavor, including myself.

Can't disagree there!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Serious, not flame, question: What changed, Joe?

At one point, you cared about ALPA, I think you were even elected as an officer in the association, and seemed to have been motivated. Now, you are one of the most vitriolic haters of ALPA around. Was it one thing, a series of things, what? Did ALPA change? Did you change? What happened?

Actually, I have never cared about "ALPA". I have cared about making ASA a better place to work...I could give a rat's a$$ about ALPA.

I was never a big fan of big unions. I only got involved because things were so bad working under George and John....long before you were hired.

When I first got involved, I blindly believed all the BS that ALPA put out....Then came TA #1 in 1997....which included a paycut for FOs at year 3-6, and totally screwed the ATR folks because I guess props are somehow less important than "jets".

At that point, I mounted a "just say NO" campaign with buttons and all...We defeated this lame TA.

I then found myself on the next negotiating committee and saw the "inner workings" of ALPA....I was not impressed. We spent more time negotiating against ALPA then we did negotiating with managment...ALPA told us we were asking for too much because we were just "regionals"....Near the end game, we had to tell Randy Babbitt that we didn't want anyone from ALPA national in the negotiations.

After the second TA, where we gained more than ALPA said we could achieve, we heard ALPA staff members lament the fact that they hoped other regionals didn't try and achieve what we had just achieved...They couldn't believe we got what we got and didn't want other regionals to think they could get the same.

In 2000, after ASA and CMR were purchased by Delta, the ASA and CMR MECs proposed that a single list on the Delta property would be advantages to all parties involved....The Delta MEC and ALPA national were shocked that measly regional pilots dare think they belonged on a major list...It was shot down by arrogance and short sighted ignorance. Now we ALL suffer the consequences by having to "bid" for flying within a brand which puts downward pressure on ALL players...including the mainline folks who think they are better...

We could also talk about the issue of ALPA Presidents making over 500K a year while regional FOs made less than 20K....We could talk about ALPA continuing to support people like Obama which turns off more than half the membership and IMO hurts the economy which in turn hurts us...Shall I go on?

I haven't changed...I have always questioned authority and asked "why?"....I don't blindly follow anyone....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I will take a stab at it. JB had a wild dream that because he was in the same union as Delta and then his company was made a subsidiary that he and his cohorts should have a spot on the Delta seniority list. Dalpa disagreed and some of the yahoos formed the rjdc.

SWING and a MISS!....I hope your flying abilities are better than your reasoning skills....I have this silly belief that ALL pilots under a single holding company should be on a single list. ASA is no longer owned by Delta, so I don't believe, nor do I think it is possible, for ASA and Delta pilots to be on the same list. ASA is now owned by Skywest, and I believe that ASA and Skywest pilots should be on the same list...If Skywest were to purchase Cape Air, I would want them on the same list also....I don't care that they "only" fly those piston twins.

Whether JB was part of that or not is not the point. His loud mouth got him forever blackballed at Delta, and for that matter most majors due to his direct/inderect involvement with the rjdc. Now he is senior at a sub-contractor and bitter about what could have been. Had he not been such a loud mouth, he could have easily moved to Delta in 2007-2008 timeframe like ACL. ACL played it smart, plugged along, kept his ear to the ground and got hired. Now it is ALPAs fault JBs career did not turn out as planned.

Hard to be blackballed at Delta when I have never filled out a Delta application. You may find it hard to believe, but not all of us dream of putting on the infamous double breasted coat....I like my job, and love my schedule. ACL played the "game"....I don't play that "game".

You are right about one point....My career did not turn out as planned...I don't think many of us have had our careers turn out as planned...Many have turned out much worse than "planned"...I diverted to my alternate early and beat the rush....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe wanted something that was completely unreasonable. No mainline group in their right mind would give him what he wanted.

I wanted a single list and single group to bargain with a single management group. I wanted "brand scope" that protected pilot groups from having their flying given away to the lowest bidder. I wanted ALPA to treat ALL pilots as equals....instead of treating regional pilots as second class citizens....I don't think there were many "right minds" at the mainline or at ALPA....

 

[701EV]

DALPA couldn't force a merger that wasn't going to happen. DAL bought ASA and CMR, but DAL was never obligated to merge either company. DALPA didn't have the authority, nor did ALPA to require a merger.

If there had been a merger, DAL still could have retained DCI and the portfolio of small jet providers. Merging ASA/CMR with DAL wouldn't have made any difference.

FDJ2,

You didn't answer my question?

Simple question, In the big picture should DALPA have put DL-ASA-Comair together? So we wouldn't have the DCI problems you have today?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"If everybody would have just listened to me, we wouldn't be in this situation....."

 

[JoeMerchant]

"If everybody would have just listened to me, we wouldn't be in this situation....."

....instead they listened to you......

 

[PCL_128]

I wanted a single list and single group to bargain with a single management group. I wanted "brand scope" that protected pilot groups from having their flying given away to the lowest bidder. I wanted ALPA to treat ALL pilots as equals....instead of treating regional pilots as second class citizens....I don't think there were many "right minds" at the mainline or at ALPA....

What you really wanted was to have a couple thousand DAL mainline pilots junior to you without you even having to interview. What a scam.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2,

You didn't answer my question?

Simple question, In the big picture should DALPA have put DL-ASA-Comair together? So we wouldn't have the DCI problems you have today?

I absolutely did answer your question. DALPA couldn't put DAL/ASA/CMR on the same list since it wasn't required by any PWA and even if it had, it wouldn't have solved the DCI issue.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What you really wanted was to have a couple thousand DAL mainline pilots junior to you without you even having to interview. What a scam.

Would that have been "in accordance with ALPA merger policy"?