Official: ASA not getting ANY 900s

[JoeMerchant]

So? They should have gone to mainline anyway.

Atrdriver,
Why should they go to mainline? Even if you think they should go to mainline, what good is it to us if they go to Skywest? The mainline carriers and ALPA should have never allowed this free for all, bidding war to happen. However they sold this flying to protect payrates, retirement, and workrules. In the end, they lost the flying AND THE PAYRATES, RETIREMENT and WORKRULES. Collective bargaining only workes if you control the flying, and now NOBODY does. The free market is in control.

 

[sweptback]

Anyway, I try to hear what the union has to say, but it seems like they just put out mostly non-sense, and then they don't get anything done for us. What, exactly, are my dues going for? If the union would take some action instead of spinning their wheels for 4 years, I might would feel a little differently.

Ok, so what would you do differently? I'm honestly curious as to what your answer would be.

The fact that wheels have been spun is mostly to do with the RLA and our lack of legal action under it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Can we expect another "King Tutt Letter of Doom (tm)" for manditory reading?

I don't know, but I do expect another ALPA letter saying something to the effect that this either a bluff, or it was going to happen anyway. The ALPA message will go on to say that we just need to trust them and everything will be OK. Just keep those dues coming in - Duane needs a new boat!

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're being a little hypocritical aren't you? You're blaming the union which implies you have accepted managment's argument without so much as a second thought. There are two sides to this argument, at least with the union we know what is being asked for. Management's 'proposal' is hidden in half truths and blantant mis-information. Can it be absolutely confirmed that we would have even been in the running for any of these planes? Did it help Comair? Is it possible that managment is using this issue to press their argument in negotiations? Are you a GO tool bag pretending to be a pilot? It's being done every day by those over in the GO, it's common tactic in these type of negotiations. But thanks for the comments. As for the 900's, if we aren't paid more to fly them, why do we want them? For growth? Yeah, that would be nice but not for 50 or even 70 seat wages.

There's one big difference between "accepting management's argument" and accepting ALPA's argument. Management can carry thru on their argument while ALPA can only object. You see it doesn't matter if you or I or anyone else accepts management's argument or not. They have said they will transfer the flying and they are now going to carry out that threat. ALPA keeps making the same mistake they always due. ALPA is more concerned with payrates and workrules, instead of who does the flying. If ALPA can't start controlling who does the flying, they won't be able to control what that flying pays.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, lets see. The union negotiators ALWAYS showed up on time, and prepared to negotiate. The company team often showed up late, or not at all. When they did show up they allowed the company lawyer dominate the negotiations for over 3 years. Paying this company lawyer a reported 70K per month, it was obviously in his best interest to drag the negotiations out as long as possible. Yes, they finally replaced "billable" Bill Hires, but the company continued up show up for meeting not prepared, while the union team was always prepared and ready to make a deal. The union CNC had the power to strike an agreement, while the company negotiators didn't. What action exactly do you want the union to take here? They have been ready and willing since day 1 to get a fair deal done. They want what we want, which is a deal that is fair to both us and the company. Can you say that about what the company wants?

None of this is about what is "fair". The world isn't "fair". This is about pattern bargaining, and that patern has moved backwards since '98. Some want to ignore that fact.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, so what would you do differently? I'm honestly curious as to what your answer would be.

The fact that wheels have been spun is mostly to do with the RLA and our lack of legal action under it.

The reason we haven't been released is because we are asking for far more than what the industry standard supports. ALPA ignored the scope/portfolio concept for far too long. There was a time this MEC understood, and maybe it still does. However the damage has been done. The decision now must be made whether or not to live and fight another day, or to just watch as our jobs are given away. I for one would rather live to fight another day.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Ok, so what would you do differently? I'm honestly curious as to what your answer would be.

The fact that wheels have been spun is mostly to do with the RLA and our lack of legal action under it.

Sigh...I had written a reply, but for some reason it didn't post and I lost it, and I'm too tired to re-write it...but I'll give you the short version.

I would put a stop to the anti-intellectual culture at ALPA. Our pilots are not idiots, and they can think for themselves. It is not seditious to think and act independently. Whenever a pilot seems to think on their own, you people chant in unison, "Your MEC speaks for you!" But that puts such a damper on those who want to think creatively and who want to be active in the union, but can't because if you don't toe the line you get stomped on. The MEC may speak for the union, but it doesn't speak for me. No union can tell me what to think, say, or do.

Most importantly, the company is playing us like a Steinway piano. They know how we react to things, so they just do things to piss us off, and we give them an excellent excuse to transfer assets to SkyWest. We need to engage the company, and be open to every possibility out there for making money, growing, and working together. Taking such an adversarial role is ignorant, and counter-productive. I still don't get why there are people out there trying to cost the company money. Don't you understand that when you take money from the pot, there is less for us to get? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

 

[ASA_Aviator]

That Union that "doesn't get anything done for (you)" is made up of your colleagues.

Just those in other nations have nothing against the citizens of America, but hate Bush, I have nothing against the line pilots. They may be in the union, but they sure don't have a voice because, around here, if you aren't singing in unison, you're sent out of the choir.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

We need to engage the company, and be open to every possibility out there for making money, growing, and working together.

We tried that.... for a couple of years, as a matter of fact. It was called interest based bargaining and it was a resounding failure, as the company never showed up prepared to discuss anything meaningful. Perhaps you don't remember that. More likely it was all before you got here.

 

[Bizjet]

No, I haven't accepted the company's position, but I admit I default to the anti-union side. The union propaganda just pisses me off. It comes from my pre-airline days when I was in another career, and had to deal with union thugs on a daily basis.

Anyway, I try to hear what the union has to say, but it seems like they just put out mostly non-sense, and then they don't get anything done for us. What, exactly, are my dues going for? If the union would take some action instead of spinning their wheels for 4 years, I might would feel a little differently.

I mean no disrespect to my colleagues, who, like me, keep this airline running on a day to day basis. I think we deserve to be treated with respect, and the rest of the airline that we are propping up needs to step to the plate. I guess I'm just jaded, and pissed off.

Now you are finally telling the truth about your anti-union bias. No further explanations are necessary. All of us that support the union over this worst of the worst managements are THUGS in your book. Maybe you should get out of aviation and find a job where you surperior attitude would fit more appropriately. You certainly have shown you true colors here. You and Joey Merchant should package yourselves as "Have Anti Union Crew--Will Travel". May your first excursion be any where but ASA. You may want to take adult supervision along because you know how dangerous travel is for unescorted minors.

 

[Bizjet]

None of this is about what is "fair". The world isn't "fair". This is about pattern bargaining, and that patern has moved backwards since '98. Some want to ignore that fact.

And Joey wants to make sure we are the leaders of "backwards pattern bargaining"! This industry is changing and you want to make sure you and your type are never involved in assisting the evil union so now you must support the inept aviation managements that run the airlines. You are one truly screwed up individual. Your personal hatred for ALPA and weak personality prevents you from having any ability to stand up for what is right. You are just looking out for yourself only. I guess this should have been expected because of the company you keep. The two of you could care less about your fellow pilots especially those who support the union. You two have made your own bed and you will forever have to lay in it--excrement and all. You no longer have to stay here because your missionary work is done. You have failed to convert the heathen pilots of ASA and now it is time for the two of you to officially cross over to the enlightened management side. I am sure you will be rewarded for your failed efforts.

THOU SHALL NOT STEAL! So do you think you can return the minutes you stole from the union LEC meeting? Your childish refusal only reinforces the belief that you are totally out of control with your professional as well as your personal life! Your mini lectures on how to run the union have failed. Return the unions property and resign your position as LEC Sec./Treas. since you have refused to do your job for the last two plus years and continue being professional slumlords. Speaking of new boats for Duane maybe you can buy his old one. I understand the teak decks are so clean you can crawl around on them and never get any "dirtier".

 

[atrdriver]

None of this is about what is "fair". The world isn't "fair". This is about pattern bargaining, and that patern has moved backwards since '98. Some want to ignore that fact.

So tell me Joe, what causes a backward movement in pattern bargaining to reverse itself? Maybe a company that is making plenty of money having to pay it's employees what they're worth? The pattern WAS going up at one point, and stopped and reversed. That means that if it is going down it can be stopped and reversed. Or maybe you think it should continue down until we all pay to come to work?

 

[Crash Pad]

Two guys say the Union sucks. Another two guys say it is great.

Ok now for the reality. The union is being broken right in front of your eyes. Go up to MSP and find me a pro union mechanic.... See what I am getting at.

If the union wants to impress me they will get to a single list and fast. If the pilot group wants to impress me they will tell Jerry we will dump the Union and be rolled into one list under the SKYW working agreement.

Based on this thread neither will happen and I will start out at the bottom at SKYW on first year pay.

 

[Turkey Shoot]

If the union wants to impress me they will get to a single list and fast. If the pilot group wants to impress me they will tell Jerry we will dump the Union and be rolled into one list under the SKYW working agreement.

Isn't that what this is all about?

 

[PunchTheClown]

This is good news guys, that aircraft belongs at mainline. Now, if your one of those with SJS and want to spend your whole career at a regional then this is bad news.