NY's Hometown Airline- Continental on FOX NY with Regis Tonight

[G4G5]

SWA Long Island's Hometown airline!

I hear you, I live on Long Island and SWA is putting a hurting on the JFK/LGA traffic. I don't know a single person who would sooner take Jetblue out of JFK or AA out of LGA . For anyone coming in for a visit, I always steer them to-wards ISP. It's cheaper, easier and quicker. $79 internet specials to FL, can't beat it.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

http://www.panynj.gov/

Go to any one of the airports and then go the the bottom where it says "about the airport" this will lead you to "traffic statistics"
If you check the traffic statistics at the Port Authority web site you will see that the difference between CAL and AMR (AA + Eagle) is not that great. CAL has AMR by around 15%. I bring this to your attention because with AMR's new JFK facility they have substantial growth possibilities at JFK. With the purchase of TWA they have substantial growth possbilites at LGA(C gates and slots). Even at at Newark the A section has available growth.

Well if we are going to get into good discussion we might as well argue the facts, right? Here are some October 2005 numbers for the NYC Metropolitan Area Airports...from the website that you quoted above.

Total Passengers

Continental - 17,679,253
Continental Express - 4,318,041
CAL Total - 21,997,294

American - 14,974,731
American Eagle - 1,635,857
AMR Total - 16,610,588

Looking at CAL's total numbers versus AMR's total numbers...CAL is 32.4% larger on a total passenger basis for October 2005. Where do you get 15%? Even if you use just CAL mainline versus AMR mainline it is an 18% difference. But I don't think that is the best way to analyze it since both Eagle and Continental Express are part of each carrier's network.

CAL's Newark C section will not support any where near that growth. Nor will EWR as an airport be able to handle additional capacity like JFK. Try to keep in mind that AA is operating limited capacity at JFK while construction continues. Simply put AA can't do the O&D until the construction is finished. The link shows a pictures of AA space:
http://www.aa.com/content/images/aboutUs/terminals/terminal_JFK.gif

In short, CAL has reached their growth limits, AMR has plenty of room.

You mention that EWR has room for growth at Terminal A for AA (but no CAL growth at EWR)...have you not noticed that CAL has one of the fingers of Terminal A and has grown substantially there this year? All of CAL's Dallas, Boston, Atlanta, Chicago, Washington-Dulles, and Washington-National flights are now handled out of Terminal A. And Terminal C can grow easily...simply by shifting Continental Express flights to hardstands and moving the mainline flights to C2.

As far as home town airline AMR still leads in LGA and JFK traffic. While some people in Manhattan prefer EWR, some do not. East side VS West, the air train helps the JFK traffic. The real disadvantage to EWR is that it does not cater to Long Island, Westchester or Connecticut.The bottom line is the their just is not the population or growth potential to the West of EWR, when compared to the traffic/population JFK/LGA has access to. I live on Long Island and work in HPN. No one I know is willing to travel to EWR (not as long as that speed bump called Manhattan & it's 8 million people are in the way). The same goes for the people I work with from CT.

Being someone who currently lives on the east side of Manhattan and who grew up in Westchester County, I know a little of what you speak of...yes, CT and Westchester people generally do avoid Newark just as Northern NJ people avoid LGA and JFK. But frankly, I can't stand going to JFK (and most of my NYC friends can't stand it either). EWR is much more accessible in my opinion. Of course, if I lived in Dix Hills, Long Island or Greenwich, CT and wanted to fly nonstop to Omaha NE or Quebec City, Canada....besides Continental, what are my options? Southern Westchester isn't THAT far from Newark by the way...40-45 minute drive versus 30-35 minutes to LGA and you cross a bridge for both.

-Neal

 

[G4G5]

Well if we are going to get into good discussion we might as well argue the facts, right? Here are some October 2005 numbers for the NYC Metropolitan Area Airports...from the website that you quoted above.

Total Passengers

Continental - 17,679,253
Continental Express - 4,318,041
CAL Total - 21,997,294

American - 14,974,731
American Eagle - 1,635,857
AMR Total - 16,610,588

Looking at CAL's total numbers versus AMR's total numbers...CAL is 32.4% larger on a total passenger basis for October 2005. Where do you get 15%? Even if you use just CAL mainline versus AMR mainline it is an 18% difference. But I don't think that is the best way to analyze it since both Eagle and Continental Express are part of each carrier's network.



You mention that EWR has room for growth at Terminal A for AA (but no CAL growth at EWR)...have you not noticed that CAL has one of the fingers of Terminal A and has grown substantially there this year? All of CAL's Dallas, Boston, Atlanta, Chicago, Washington-Dulles, and Washington-National flights are now handled out of Terminal A. And Terminal C can grow easily...simply by shifting Continental Express flights to hardstands and moving the mainline flights to C2.



Being someone who currently lives on the east side of Manhattan and who grew up in Westchester County, I know a little of what you speak of...yes, CT and Westchester people generally do avoid Newark just as Northern NJ people avoid LGA and JFK. But frankly, I can't stand going to JFK (and most of my NYC friends can't stand it either). EWR is much more accessible in my opinion. Of course, if I lived in Dix Hills, Long Island or Greenwich, CT and wanted to fly nonstop to Omaha NE or Quebec City, Canada....besides Continental, what are my options? Southern Westchester isn't THAT far from Newark by the way...40-45 minute drive versus 30-35 minutes to LGA and you cross a bridge for both.

-Neal

Speaking of facts, the last time I checked CAL express is no longer part of CAL. That's where your numbers are WRONG.

Total Passengers

Continental TOTAL- 17,679,253

American - 14,974,731
American Eagle - 1,635,857
AMR Total - 16,610,588

I was just estimating (conservatively) when I said 15% but when you look at the facts CAL is only 7%, not 15% ahead of AMR. You can't use CAL express numbers, for one thing they are a separate feeder, not owned by CAL. Just look at what happened with Blueridge/Independence air when UAL decided to no longer use their feed.

How much growth does CAL have at EWR when compared to AMR's LGA and JFK potential? Tuff to win that argument

"Southern Westchester isn't THAT far from Newark by the way...40-45 minute drive versus 30-35 minutes to LGA and you cross a bridge for both. "

45 minutes to get from Westchester to Newark. Over the GW? It can take 45 minutes just to get over the GW. Why would you do that when you could have already been parked and on the jet at LGA.

SO now it only takes an additional 10 minutes to get from LGA to EWR? Come on.

 

[gkrangers]

Hell, I've gone from central NJ, 35 minutes south of EWR...to southern Westchester in probably 1:15.

As long as the GWB isn't killer, 45 minutes from southern Westchester to EWR is very reasonable.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Speaking of facts, the last time I checked CAL express is no longer part of CAL. That's where your numbers are WRONG.

Total Passengers

Continental TOTAL- 17,679,253

American - 14,974,731
American Eagle - 1,635,857
AMR Total - 16,610,588

I was just estimating (conservatively) when I said 15% but when you look at the facts CAL is only 7%, not 15% ahead of AMR. You can't use CAL express numbers, for one thing they are a separate feeder, not owned by CAL. Just look at what happened with Blueridge/Independence air when UAL decided to no longer use their feed.

While ExpressJet Airlines may do business at Continental Express, all tickets on Continental Express are Continental tickets just like tickets sold on American Eagle are American tickets. If you fly on Continental Express from EWR to ORD, you are earning OnePass miles just like you would if you flew Continental from EWR to ORD. It is all one system network. This is NOT an Indy Air deal....Continental Express is part of Continental even though the airplanes are being flown by a separate company. To the passenger, it is all Continental, even though it is a smaller airplane. If you are going to analyze CAL versus AMR in the NY area, you absolutely must look at the whole picture...which includes any and all tickets sold and all seats sold for each entity...which means Continental Express and Eagle tickets as well.

How much growth does CAL have at EWR when compared to AMR's LGA and JFK potential? Tuff to win that argument

I never brought the growth argument in...you did. We were talking about today's NYC hometown airline. All I was saying is that CAL is more entitled to that token name today than AMR.

Out of curiosity, if you looked at a route map out of the NYC tri-state area, which airline...CAL/CALEX or AMR/AE...would have more lines starting/ending out of the NY/NJ airports?

Also, take a guess at which airline is the official airline of both NY baseball teams?

45 minutes to get from Westchester to Newark. Over the GW? It can take 45 minutes just to get over the GW. Why would you do that when you could have already been parked and on the jet at LGA.

SO now it only takes an additional 10 minutes to get from LGA to EWR? Come on.

For starters, how many places can you get to nonstop from LGA on AMR? Not nearly as many as CAL out of EWR. Secondly, I've driven to both LGA and EWR more times than I care to think of...from southern Westchester and in both cases those are the average driving times, especially if you don't take the cross-bronx to get on the GWB (take the Henry Hudson Highway and it is much faster...ever done that? If not, it is a great shortcut albeit you pay $1.25 for a toll). Are you also telling me you've never gotten stuck on the Whitestone Bridge?

PS - From where I grew up, it is 37 driving miles to EWR and 25 to LGA. 12 miles isn't really that big of a deal, especially when, like I said, you are crossing a bridge either way....I'd drive 12 miles to avoid a connection in DFW or ORD.

-Neal

 

[XTW]

They let you into New Jersey for free, but they make you pay if you want to leave (same going to Pennsylvania and Delaware).quote]


It's not so much making you pay if you want to leave, it's that you'll pay any price to be able to leave Jersey!


X

 

[G4G5]

While ExpressJet Airlines may do business at Continental Express, all tickets on Continental Express are Continental tickets just like tickets sold on American Eagle are American tickets. If you fly on Continental Express from EWR to ORD, you are earning OnePass miles just like you would if you flew Continental from EWR to ORD. It is all one system network. This is NOT an Indy Air deal....Continental Express is part of Continental even though the airplanes are being flown by a separate company. To the passenger, it is all Continental, even though it is a smaller airplane. If you are going to analyze CAL versus AMR in the NY area, you absolutely must look at the whole picture...which includes any and all tickets sold and all seats sold for each entity...which means Continental Express and Eagle tickets as well.

So who does Chautauqua feed at LGA? Here's a better one for you when AMR Eagle feeds Delta out of LAX, where does that belong? The fact is Express is a separately run airline. Where does that pax money go, not to CAL or it's bottom line. The reality is CAL sold off express, they have no control the airline and the folks are subject to contract between the two airlines (see UAL and Independence). This is very, very different from AMR where Eagle is controlled by Arpey and the profits (lol,if their are any) go to the shareholders. This is why you can't just count heads. How long did it take Blueridge to go from UAL feeder to CH7?

I never brought the growth argument in...you did. We were talking about today's NYC hometown airline. All I was saying is that CAL is more entitled to that token name today than AMR.

See this is where we will just have to agree to disagree, EWR is for the folks from Jersey. If I need a direct domestic, I am looking to LGA and who is the largest out of LGA? With all of the carriers available, EWR just doesn't compare unless I need to get to Cleveland or Houston.

Out of curiosity, if you looked at a route map out of the NYC tri-state area, which airline...CAL/CALEX or AMR/AE...would have more lines starting/ending out of the NY/NJ airports?

You could have twice the lines out of EWR, it wouldn't matter it's still EWR. EWR is for Jersey folks. People from Long Island, CT and Westchester aren't going to EWR unless they have to (price). Where do most of the Manhattan commuters live? When they travel on their family vacation or European business trip, where are they leaving from? Not the office. Speaking of Europe if I am doing business in London, Europe's most popular destination, why would I even consider EWR? The same goes for Paris. In fact once again, you can get to more European cities directly out of JFK and AA is the largest airline at JFK (international).


Also, take a guess at which airline is the official airline of both NY baseball teams?
New Yorkers, don't care who sponsors any of their teams, its a waste of money. This is evident by the fact that not a single NY stadium has a corporate sponsor.





For starters, how many places can you get to nonstop from LGA on AMR? Not nearly as many as CAL out of EWR. Secondly, I've driven to both LGA and EWR more times than I care to think of...from southern Westchester and in both cases those are the average driving times, especially if you don't take the cross-Bronx to get on the GWB (take the Henry Hudson Highway and it is much faster...ever done that? If not, it is a great shortcut albeit you pay $1.25 for a toll). Are you also telling me you've never gotten stuck on the Whitestone Bridge?

What I asked was since when does it take 10 minutes to drive from LGA to EWR? You said 30-35 for LGA and 40-45 for EWR, when driving from lower Westchester. The reality is for most folks they need to leave MORE time to get to EWR because the traffic is so bad. What happens to the GW every Sunday from Sept to December? Either the NY Jets or the NY Giants are home playing a football game and 80k of your closest buddies are all between the GW and EWR airport. Try getting through the city any time from 7am to 7pm, no thanks. I'll take LGA or JFK and once again who is the largest at the Home Town NY airports?

Oh by the way not having checked I would venture to guess that I could get to more destinations directly on AA or their One world partners directly out of JFK. What One World Partners don't count? Just because they are not owned or controlled by AMR. Hmmmmmmmm, just like CAL and CAL Express.

When I commute I live on the AM radio. 880 1010 and 1130, having lived in just about every Borro (except the Bronx) you get use to the traffic patterns

PS - From where I grew up, it is 37 driving miles to EWR and 25 to LGA. 12 miles isn't really that big of a deal, especially when, like I said, you are crossing a bridge either way....I'd drive 12 miles to avoid a connection in DFW or ORD.

Most New Yorkers I know would never bypass JFK or LGA so they could drive through or around Manhattan just to get to EWR where you are at the mercy of just one carrier.

 

[Palomino]

my question in all of this is...WHO CARES?!

 

[Crucianpilot]

Exactly, making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[RocketRob]

O.k. guys put your co&ks back in your pants and relax. Its marketing, who cares. I do agree that CAL probably did score some good points of advertising/ customer awareness through this. Besides all the people from NY/NJ/CT, many others from the rest of the country need/want to fly to new york and might now be thinking of CAL and those two big 1st class seats.