NY Times Article on NetJets

[Grizz]

The problem with you spending 500K a year and expecting perks on top is the core product is costing 750K a year to provide...sans perks.

The real problem is that chimpanzees mashing away at a keyboard could have come up with a better analysis than you just did.

The majority of the losses we suffered in 2009 were due to write-downs on aircraft value. Glad to see that such a wizened scholar as yourself can diagnose problems without even the slightest basis in fact. Got any hot stock picks? I'd love to short them if this is your best effort.

Just one thread and I remember why I don't come over here.

 

[AvroJockey]

The owner "perks" were relatively very small potatoes. Yes it is cost savings, yes we could all buy these ourselves, but a nice leather passport holder, tie or scarf wen I spend over $500k per year in monthly and hourly fees is a nice way to say "thanks". While we do not participate in most of the owner functions, there are a few which appeal to my kids and have been wonderful -- like a day in Columbus at FSI in the simulator and learning how planes fly, an evening with Cesar Milan (the Dog Whisperer), hitting tennis balls back to Roger Federer, being treated regally at the circus. These items go a very long way to keep owners more than happy (yes, over the top, but bringing it to a new level). Believe it or not, these are event that many owners could afford, but won't directly spend the extra $$ for. Some events, like Federer, are irreplaceable and can make the difference in attracting and keeping some owners. When your average client/owner spends in excess of $500k per year with a company (I think the NY times article is wrong at $250k since that tis the average cost per year of 50 hours in the Ultra), spending a few $$ on owners is not an excess. Next step, limiting us to 2 bottles of water and 1 box of jelly beans per person per flight?

Fly safe.

I was told how enjoyable the FSI gig was by others...I'm glad you enjoyed it as well. I've been doing this a while and I still can't get over how detailed the visuals are getting in the sim.

BTW, commodities don't come with water or jelly beans...you might have to bring your own in a couple years. :laugh:

Hope to fly you some day, but it looks like it might not happen until after 10/29/2014...my expected recall date.

 

[AvroJockey]

As a former NetJet owner I have to confess I really enjoyed the "perks". I participated in the poker tournament and some of the other events. Trust me there will be backlash over canceling this event. My kids loved the concerts. When I switched to Avantair my kids were upset because we knew those opportunities were gone. The Netjet owner will not be happy because they are the loser in this. They pay the bills and there are certain expectations. The "perks" were part of those expectations. It does bring the competition closer because it is an added benefit that is gone. Cost cutting always hurts but the rule is never bite the hand that feeds you. Many executives entering a customer service industry learn this the hard way.

Thanks for the insight...this is way better than a comment card we never get to read.

It will be interesting to see how this effects the market. I don't think it will be good for NJA.

 

[glasspilot]

The real problem is that chimpanzees mashing away at a keyboard could have come up with a better analysis than you just did.

The majority of the losses we suffered in 2009 were due to write-downs on aircraft value. Glad to see that such a wizened scholar as yourself can diagnose problems without even the slightest basis in fact. Got any hot stock picks? I'd love to short them if this is your best effort.

Just one thread and I remember why I don't come over here.

I do believe that if you read past the first sentence you will see I address business models based on aircraft appreciation.

Hot stock picks? Google. Go ahead and short that and see how it works out for you...tool.

 

[Grizz]

Just keep banging on that keyboard Bonzo, you'll get a banana soon.

 

[jppt2000]

The owner "perks" were relatively very small potatoes. Yes it is cost savings, yes we could all buy these ourselves, but a nice leather passport holder, tie or scarf wen I spend over $500k per year in monthly and hourly fees is a nice way to say "thanks". While we do not participate in most of the owner functions, there are a few which appeal to my kids and have been wonderful -- like a day in Columbus at FSI in the simulator and learning how planes fly, an evening with Cesar Milan (the Dog Whisperer), hitting tennis balls back to Roger Federer, being treated regally at the circus. These items go a very long way to keep owners more than happy (yes, over the top, but bringing it to a new level). Believe it or not, these are event that many owners could afford, but won't directly spend the extra $$ for. Some events, like Federer, are irreplaceable and can make the difference in attracting and keeping some owners. When your average client/owner spends in excess of $500k per year with a company (I think the NY times article is wrong at $250k since that tis the average cost per year of 50 hours in the Ultra), spending a few $$ on owners is not an excess. Next step, limiting us to 2 bottles of water and 1 box of jelly beans per person per flight?

Fly safe.

I agree with you NJAowner, BTW please have as much on board stock as you wish, it's always YOUR airplane.

 

[glasspilot]

Just keep banging on that keyboard Bonzo, you'll get a banana soon.

Oh, I get it. Two posts referring to me as a monkey.

Wait...I don't get it.

You were in the Union? Really? Wow. At least NJA pilots are fed well. Can you get a bannana (note the spelling of "bannana" retard) in one of the dozens of crew meals per week???? Cause I'm a monkey...get it? I like bannanas. funny right???



...still a tool.

 

[Nolife]

labor is being punished for the shortcomings of the old management.A lot of pilots who were very comfortable in their seats decided to come here because it was better than their gig.

I feel you bro; being laid off brings about a lot of second-guessing and what if scenarios. Just remember that you left where you were for a reason... and NJA is one of the better jobs out there (you will get the chance to go back). You could still be at your regional where you were senior however is that where you want to be in ten years?

From personal experience: after a lay off it may take anywhere from 6 months to a year for the dust to settle in your life but stay focused on the endgame and not each set back. And take comfort that at least where ever you end up you have a union seniority number, which guarantees you will be recalled, and gives you options down the road, unlike a lot of other frac guys, me included.

Don't waste your energy hating or blaming management; it will turn you into a boring embittered pilot. Instead, try beer and hookers.:beer:
Good luck.

 

[CA1900]

As a former NetJet owner I have to confess I really enjoyed the "perks". I participated in the poker tournament and some of the other events. Trust me there will be backlash over canceling this event. My kids loved the concerts. When I switched to Avantair my kids were upset...

But you switched anyway -- I think that's kinda the point. Your decision on which provider to use didn't depend on those perks. And if they cost more than the revenue they bring in, keeping them all is not a good business decision.

 

[jppt2000]

As a former NetJet owner I have to confess I really enjoyed the "perks". I participated in the poker tournament and some of the other events. Trust me there will be backlash over canceling this event. My kids loved the concerts. When I switched to Avantair my kids were upset because we knew those opportunities were gone. The Netjet owner will not be happy because they are the loser in this. They pay the bills and there are certain expectations. The "perks" were part of those expectations. It does bring the competition closer because it is an added benefit that is gone. Cost cutting always hurts but the rule is never bite the hand that feeds you. Many executives entering a customer service industry learn this the hard way.

Phony
I give up,
too many posers and phony characters out here in internet land.
FlightInfo just isn't what it used to be.

 

[HazMat]

Once again I know it is hard to believe because he is the guy who switched. Most of us at Avantair know who Avantairowner is and he is in fact a guy who left Netjets for Avantair. We get about 20 of those a month. He doesn't hide it and alot of us have spoken to him. He has had alot of business success. We all know some of the Companies he has started.

 

[Grizz]

Can you get a bannana (note the spelling of "bannana" retard)

You really make this entirely too easy. You better quit while you're behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/banana

If this is indicative of the witty repartee you're capable of, I can understand why you'd make some half-assed stab at trying to explain a complex business model. (And fail miserably at doing so)

Better stick with trying to explain how Suzy's lemonade stand works Einstein. You might be able to figure that out.

 

[Hawkered]

Griz,

Knock it off. You're better than that!

NJA Owner,

I'd be proud to fly you and listen to your insight. Personally I like Mr Sokol. I think that he has brought reality to the operation and a view to long term sustainability and a chance to expand once the economy improves.

Don't give up on what "once was". This is the worst and least predictable economy since 1929. Guys like Sokol assure us of both success and appreciation in the long run. When we come out of this, we will have the capital for expansion into places like Canada, South America, China and South East Asia.

Mr Santulli was a visionary, but his plans got derailed by an economy that melted and a credit market that froze. I think his management style was always based upon hiring to meet a future expansion plan. Why not; it had worked up to this point?

Obviously for these times, Mr Sokol is an excellent choice and I have no problem believing that he is the heir apparent to the Berkshire helm.

Netjets is a great job. I feel sorry for the 495ers, but hopefully we will have sustainable expansion sooner than predicted.

 

[Grizz]

Griz,

Knock it off. You're better than that!

Not really. My exceptionally poor impulse control is one of the reasons I stopped bantering with the nameless, faceless and clueless over here. It made my life more sane not to tilt at these particular windmills.

That being said, I'm done here. See you over on our board.

 

[glasspilot]

To all: I screwed up banana...sorry.

To Grizz. My points were spot on. NJA, along with most fractionals, is a pyrimade scheme. It's just like Amway. You have to grow to survive. If you don't you die. Exhibit A is the past year.

1. You don't charge enough to cover the cost of the service.
2. You expect aircraft appreciation to cover the loss.
3. Everybody expects perks. Pilots, Owners, Management, hell...rampers when they see a "QS' plane!

You shot my bannana all to hell but the points of my argument stand strong. Your strongest argument thus far as been to say I am a monkey. Nice work.

 

[NJAowner]

Grizz -- great to see your posts.

Glass and others -- the perks are nice but not the reason I fly NJA. It is like those little "somethings" a chef at a restaurant may send out between courses. Not the reason we went there, but delicious and appreciated.

In my opinion, most owners who switch from NJA to Avantair probably should not have been at NJA in the first place. For me and many other owners, Avantair's aircraft (leaving safety and other issues aside) just can't handle our missions cost and time efficiently. If an owner just needs some short hops, Avantair may be their solution. Just to be honest, I think Avantair is a very good business model but consider it a much different product/service than NJA. That is why I do own many shares of stock in Avantair. In full disclosure, I also have an interest in 2 HIG funds which own FLOPs. But I would not fly nor put my family on either of their planes. But I also own many shares of HP but buy Dell and Apple computer.

NJ is not a pyramid scheme. If one truly understands the finances at Avantair they would not attack the finance of NJA. In my opinion, Avantair is succeeding in this market because many owners have gotten addicted to private flying. It is one of the nastiest addictions known to man and extremely tough to kick. Therefore, a lower priced product which still gives you the "high" and accomplishes its missions will do very, very well in the short run (and why I have bought shares). And in my opinion, Avantair is probably still safer than many, many other operators. This is not a determination of "unsafe", but "more safe". I do think that Avantair and FLOPs are "safe", but if I can move further down the curve, I will. I am sure I will get flamed for this but as I said "in my opinion" and I have engaged experts whom I trust to look at issues on my behalf before committing, and when renewing and purchasing additional NJ shares. It is like the old school days, a 96 is a great grade, not to be diminished by anyone and the student should be quite proud. But a 99 is still better.


Please do not take this the wrong way. My opinions are not meant to be negative toward others, but just the priorities and decisions I make on a daily basis. While other parents I know allow their kids to do things considered "safe", I drawn the line elsewhere.

Fly safe.

 

[dime line]

"But I would not fly nor put my family on either on of their planes"

NJA Owner,
Why not?

 

[avantairowner]

netjetowner

My company recently added additional shares from Avantair. Our insurance underwriter required a safety audit of their operation since almost all of our flying will be handled by them. The audit came back A+. I see first hand their attention to detail and completely disagree with your opinion. Not just my opinion but the third party auditor we hired say they are a 99. By the way i almost exclusively travel over 1000 miles on each flight. Not sure what you mean by short haul. These are two great companies you can't go wrong. I switched for two main reasons cost and the lower carbon emissions of the Piaggio. I am very happy with my decision we now own almost half an airplane. I think the eco side will become a big thing in the future.

 

[NJAowner]

Avantair owner -- like I have said many times before, I am very glad that you are happy with Avantair and it suits your needs. While the P180 may suit a few of our missions, it is not suitable or cost effective for the majority of our flying needs. That is why there is room inthe market for competitors -- there is no single right or wrong.

As far as our review, we had an extensive review conducted several years back and we were not satified with the results. This is not a bright line test for all -- but just our determination based upon our expectations. I hear things have changed since the operations moved south.

Financially, I do have a concern with the ability to continue to fund all that is required on a daily basis when the current accounts payable and expenses exceed the current cash, receiables and anticipated income.

Fly safe.

 

[jetmaster727]

netjetowner

My company recently added additional shares from Avantair. Our insurance underwriter required a safety audit of their operation since almost all of our flying will be handled by them. The audit came back A+. I see first hand their attention to detail and completely disagree with your opinion. Not just my opinion but the third party auditor we hired say they are a 99. By the way i almost exclusively travel over 1000 miles on each flight. Not sure what you mean by short haul. These are two great companies you can't go wrong. I switched for two main reasons cost and the lower carbon emissions of the Piaggio. I am very happy with my decision we now own almost half an airplane. I think the eco side will become a big thing in the future.

One of my pax recently told me this: took avantair into short wet strip because we wouldn't in the jet. Safety! They landed, slid sideways, and almost crashed off the end. Scared the crap out of all onboard who now refuse to fly them.