NWA Retirements

[General Lee]

I probably won't do that since I don't know who YOU are. Truth is, I liked the guy. Seemed like a straight shooter. The SLI came up in conversation and he mentioned that last year he was at Pinnacle and the Delta proposed SLI had him senior to NWA '99 hires. Look at the Delta SLI, he is correct.

Again, we were hiring due to expansion, and Steenland horded cash to attract merger partners. It doesn't matter. If a DL guy is 7% from the bottom and he was hired after 9-11, then he should stay at about the 7% in the merged company, unless there are special circumstances like your airline was going to furlough stand alone. That leads to career expectations. Our guys shouldn't be penalized for your CEO's insecurity problems at the time. And, Nicelau agreed with that same thought, and of course our arbitrators will review all previous decisions. The bottom USAir guys didn't like being put next to bottom AWA guys, yet they also got the top 500 spots while their airline was the one that was failing. Even flying for the failing carrier, they still got the top 500 spots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

FBN... My apologies- foot in mouth, there is one more 9E guy integrated in with Nov 99.

Did his last name start with B?

 

[General Lee]

Your side's entire argument hinges on timing. You want to use what we brought to the merger but also want to assume that neither company even thought of merging prior to the public announcement and made plans as a stand alone right up until the minute of the press release. THAT's Hilarious as well as hugely naive. You can't have it both ways General. If you insist on looking at what NWA did with fleet plans well after the merger announcement (your "snapshot" date) then let's also throw out hourly rates prior to the JPWA TA. You guys want to have your cake and eat it too.....and that's just not going to happen. Nope. Also, please post ALPA merger policy that prohibits DOH from being used. Just because it doesn't require it doesn't mean it can't be considered or used by the panel, as was clearly shown in our briefs/testimony.

Time to give you a history lesson on DOH and ALPA.
From our closing statements:


The NWA Committee places great stock in the fact that NWA’s integration with
Republic, and the prior Republic integrations (North Central/Southern, Republic/Hughes
Airwest) were all accomplished using Date of Hire or Date of Hire adjusted for length of
service, and that that is so because Date of Hire is a “bedrock” principle of seniority
integration. T. 2047 (Averill). However, that history demonstrates nothing, because at
all relevant times, as the attached chart shows, ALPA Merger Policy favored Date of
Hire.36 ALPA amended its Merger Policy in 1991 and deleted any reference to Date of
Hire. Since then, there have been three arbitrated seniority integration awards – US
Airways and Shuttle (Nicolau, 1988), Atlas and Polar (Harris, 2006) and America West
and US Airways (Nicolau, 2007). In each of these cases, one or the other of the parties
proposed a list based in whole or in part on Date of Hire – the US Airways pilots in the
Shuttle and America West cases and the Atlas pilots in Atlas and Polar. In each of these
cases, the list was constructed on a ratio basis, with the arbitrator either rejecting Date of
Hire outright (America West and Atlas) or the proponent withdrawing it (Shuttle).
Indeed, the last Date of Hire list awarded by an arbitrator under ALPA Merger
Policy was the list created by Arbitrator Roberts in Northwest and Republic 20 years ago.
And no matter how the “success” of that award is trumpeted by the NWA pilots, that
revisionist view is not consistent with the facts. First, the list prompted 20 years of
efforts to undo its effects, resulting in 24 post-award arbitrations.


Would you like to argue any of the above? Please, go ahead....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FBN0223]

Again, we were hiring due to expansion, and Steenland horded cash to attract merger partners. It doesn't matter. If a DL guy is 7% from the bottom and he was hired after 9-11, then he should stay at about the 7% in the merged company, unless there are special circumstances like your airline was going to furlough stand alone.

Bye Bye--General Lee

With a DOH scenario coupled with fences, your 2007 wide-eyed B767 First Officer will maintain close to his ratio and without a doubt maintain his his position flying the B767.

Problems that I have with ratios are that DALPA ratios are way out of whack. Using the Delta proposal most of us at NWA move down several percentage points. In other words, if I have 20% below me at NWA, I will now have 15% below me at the new Delta. So if you guys want to go with the fantasyland ratio scenario, at least do it fairly.

Also ratios don't account for career expectations. In my case I would have retired as a B747-400 Captain without a merger. Ok we merged. Things change but I should still come close to my career expectations. When you give away 1500 numbers your career expectations diminish greatly.

To be honest, I thought it was a cool merger in the beginning until I saw DAL's SLI proposal with DAL pilots defending an unreasonable solution. Now I hope for ten year fences, more the status quo and protections for all of our NWA flying, especially the A330 and B747-400.

 

[General Lee]

With a DOH scenario coupled with fences, your 2007 wide-eyed B767 First Officer will maintain close to his ratio and without a doubt maintain his his position flying the B767.

Problems that I have with ratios are that DALPA ratios are way out out of whack. Using the Delta proposal most of us at NWA move down several percentage points. In other words, if I have 20% below me at NWA, I will now have 15% below me at the new Delta. So if you guys want to go with the fantasyland ratio scenario, at least do it fairly.

Also ratios don't account for career expectations. In my case I would have retired as a B747-400 Captain without a merger. Ok we merged. Things change but I should still come close to my career expectations. When you give away 1500 numbers your career expectations diminish greatly.

To be honest, I thought it was a cool merger in the beginning until I saw DAL's SLI proposal with DAL pilots defending an unreasonable solution. Now I hope for ten year fences, more the status quo and protections for all of our NWA flying, especially the A330 and B747-400.

Please look at history. Look at my above post and read about which airlines tried and failed to get DOH, with or without a fence. It just won't work, and your fence is hillarious (10 years) because it comes down just as our guys start to retire en mass. Come on, everyone can see it.

With our Dalpa proposal, we DL pilots move up 2%, and that would mean you would move down 2% (put 400 on the bottom equates to that). The reason for that was outlined in our testimony, but simply put you were overstaffed up to the merger, and you would have furloughed pilots, had it not been for our manning formula that actually requires you to have more pilots. Had we not merged, you would have furloughed, and the lower fuel now is buffered by the weakening economy. Also, had we not merged, the pilots that recently retired may not have, thanks to the same NWA retirement medical premiums remaining in place. Here is the snipit from our closing statements:


Regarding the existence of excess NWA pilot positions that have been and
will be created by the disposition of NWA’s DC-9s, B-757s, A319s, and B747-200
freighters – and furloughs that would have resulted at a standalone NWA:
• Robert Mann presented an analysis demonstrating that the known aircraft
dispositions at NWA would result in a minimum of 400 excess pilot
positions and a maximum of 576 excess pilot positions by the end of 2009.
And, depending on the pace DC-9 and B-747-200 freighter dispositions
after 2008, a pool of excess NWA pilots continuing through 2011 that
would range from about 100 on the low end up to 500 on the high end.
T.439-469; DX-35(corrected) at 3-4.
• Captain Rich Harwood presented an analysis demonstrating how NWA’s
pilot requirements for 2009 would decline on a standalone basis versus
2008 from 4300 to 3784 (a loss of 516). T. 2727-33; DRX-23 at 21-29.
• An email from NWA’s Robert Brodin, SVP Labor Relations, dated June
19, 2008, demonstrated that NWA management notified the NWA MEC
that there would be a furlough of between 250 and 300 NWA pilots due to
its fleet cutbacks in May 2008. DRX-26. As explained in our Pre-
Hearing Statement at 19-20, and in the testimony of Captain Tim
O’Malley, T.530, these furloughs were forestalled by NWA’s negotiation
of the “Layoff Protection Package” with the NWA Committee


In the end, we are bringing more widebodies and higher paying positions to the party, while you are bringing lower paying DC9 jobs. You say you should have been a 744 captain upon retirement. Since the 777 now pays the same, I bet you will either fly the 744 or the 777, and I have heard the 777-300ER will eventually replace the 744s anyway, just like most Asian airlines are doing now. They are just more fuel efficient, and can carry the same cargo. JAL and ANA are doing it, along with Cathay and EVA. Even our partners KLM and Air France are heading that way, with the 777-300s. Air France is even flying 777Fs now.

As far as fences go, I think we are pushing for at least 3 year fences, primarily to deal with greenbooks. Here it is in the closing statement:


Another significant issue in the case that should be addressed by the Panel is the
Red Book/Green Book hangover from the Roberts Award integrating the Northwest and
Republic seniority lists. In our Pre-Hearing Statement, we described how several
hundred Green Book pilots remain marooned in lower paying equipment than they could
hold if only afforded the opportunity to exercise fully their seniority, because junior Red
Book pilots maintain their stranglehold on the higher paying equipment due to the legacy
of the Roberts Award. See Pre-Hearing Statement at 25-27. During the hearings,
Captain Harwood showed that there remains a large group of Green Book pilots who are
making substantially less than the Red Book pilots grouped below them. T.624-47; DX-
38. Later in the hearing, Captain Greg Averill acknowledged that there are, by his
estimate, some 126 Green Book pilots who remain disadvantaged at this time.12 T.2369.
Whatever the exact scope of the problem, it would be inequitable for it to be resolved at
the expense of the Delta pilots’ career expectations. This is one of the purposes of the 3-
year top-to-bottom fence proposed by the Delta Committee and explained further below.


Hey, I want this to be fair, but you have to look at what each is bringing to the table. We BOTH have retirements, and this list is FOREVER. DOH hasn't been awarded since the Roberts Award, and with 24 arbitrated cases since (from that one award), nobody can say it was sucessful, except very senior Redbooks. And your Greenbooks that now can move up to the A330 or 744 due to our Manning policies (now 2 Capt and 2 FO on ultra long haul) will stay on your fleets hopefully if there is a 3 year or longer fence, and fly what they were supposed to fly---and now taxi the plane too since they are probably senior to the Redbook Captain they are now sharing the cockpit with. That would be interesting to watch.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

By that same logic, you wouldn't lose anything if you were stapled to the bottom of the list with no bump and no flush. You might be where you are for awhile, but hey, no biggie.

Except they wouldn't be stapled like you are proposing, they would go where their natural seniority would put them.

Again my bet is the arbitrators will segment the list and use different methods before/after a certain DOH, otherwise there is simply too much asymmetry at one end of the list or the other. The alternative is of course dynamic.

We all know you are hanging your arguments on the Nicalau award, but even my dog knows we are not even remotely comparable to USair. Everyone but you guys seems to know the difference.

The real question is are you guys going to live with what is awarded, or are you going to sue, appeal, and try get it rejected if it's not your SLI?

 

[number11]

Again, we were hiring due to expansion, and Steenland horded cash to attract merger partners. It doesn't matter. If a DL guy is 7% from the bottom and he was hired after 9-11, then he should stay at about the 7% in the merged company, unless there are special circumstances like your airline was going to furlough stand alone. That leads to career expectations. Our guys shouldn't be penalized for your CEO's insecurity problems at the time. And, Nicelau agreed with that same thought, and of course our arbitrators will review all previous decisions. The bottom USAir guys didn't like being put next to bottom AWA guys, yet they also got the top 500 spots while their airline was the one that was failing. Even flying for the failing carrier, they still got the top 500 spots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

01! Just a question that I dont know the answer to! Was there a staple at the bottum of the USAIR/AWA list?

 

[General Lee]

Except they wouldn't be stapled like you are proposing, they would go where their natural seniority would put them.

Again my bet is the arbitrators will segment the list and use different methods before/after a certain DOH, otherwise there is simply too much asymmetry at one end of the list or the other. The alternative is of course dynamic.

We all know you are hanging your arguments on the Nicalau award, but even my dog knows we are not even remotely comparable to USair. Everyone but you guys seems to know the difference.

The real question is are you guys going to live with what is awarded, or are you going to sue, appeal, and try get it rejected if it's not your SLI?

Just the one Nicolau award? Re-read the text here:


Since then, there have been three arbitrated seniority integration awards – US
Airways and Shuttle (Nicolau, 1988), Atlas and Polar (Harris, 2006) and America West
and US Airways (Nicolau, 2007). In each of these cases, one or the other of the parties
proposed a list based in whole or in part on Date of Hire – the US Airways pilots in the
Shuttle and America West cases and the Atlas pilots in Atlas and Polar. In each of these
cases, the list was constructed on a ratio basis, with the arbitrator either rejecting Date of
Hire outright (America West and Atlas) or the proponent withdrawing it (Shuttle).


We think it is GREAT that you are trying to use attrition, which has NEVER been used before. And this Dynamic list......wow.....that is a dooozy. All I have to say is NO WAY. First you try DOH to see if fish will bite, and you see it doesn't look popular. You then change lures and try the dynamic list, that AT LEAST you can say has NEVER been tried on a full SLI before. Yeah, talk about hanging your arguments on something solid......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

01! Just a question that I dont know the answer to! Was there a staple at the bottum of the USAIR/AWA list?

No, it was done in reverse. The TOP 500 USAir guys got "stapled" to the top of the list because they brought something different to the USAir list (they were the only ones to have INTL flying between the two). You guys could be stapled to the bottom, because what you brought that was different to our list was an expectation of being furloughed, stand alone. The expectation of the 787 coming sooner caused you to be overstaffed, and stand alone you were going to get rid of more DC9s also.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[number11]

No, it was done in reverse. The TOP 500 USAir guys got "stapled" to the top of the list because they brought something different to the USAir list (they were the only ones to have INTL flying between the two). You guys could be stapled to the bottom, because what you brought that was different to our list was an expectation of being furloughed, stand alone. The expectation of the 787 coming sooner caused you to be overstaffed, and stand alone you were going to get rid of more DC9s also.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Only problem I have with that is USAIR International flying was factual! DALPA's and your agrument that the 9's are or were going away as a stand alone is per speculation(I know the MEMO said so)! As for the delay with the 787 you really think they are going to furlough, pay to type the furloughs in the 175 and then bring them back in a year! Those are firm orders they are coming just like your additional 777's. Just think its alot of speculation to go ahead and staple 400 nwa pilots to the bottum! You may get a ratio like you want, have a hard time believing they will tag a staple on top of it!