NWA new China/India routes with first 787

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On balance sheet. Any new airplane has to be a "slam dunk" profit maker before they are going to put precious capital on the line.

The 787's are expensive.

 

[123]

On balance sheet. Any new airplane has to be a "slam dunk" profit maker before they are going to put precious capital on the line.

The 787's are expensive.

Actually, it doesn't have to be a slam dunk profit maker, it has to be a positive NPV in the capital budgeting process. Now, there are many assumptions that will go into the calculations, but at the end of the day, the board has to be convinced of the increase in value that a long term project will bring. Do you really think that the 777's are not expensive? Is Delta able to secure capital at a much greater discount rate (serious question, I haven't taken the time to look at ratings)?

 

[FDJ2]

You say that DAL doesn't want to take on long term debt. So is delta aquiring these aircraft with an off balance sheet type aquisition?

The 777s, 757s and 737s are all existing fleet types, are either modest orders of used aircraft or pre-existing orders that work well with DAL's business plan and fleet plan. Taking on a new fleet type of 787s, particularly when they are not necessarily needed at this time, at the begining of what could be a recession may not be the best play.

Having said that, for all I know DAL could make a large order tommorrow, but I doubt it.

 

[Schwanker]

Sure, there could be some DC9s parkings, but not all at once, and maybe a replacement will be found to cover them, like those 100+ MD90s that are still out there, at a bargain price. We have already done the check outs on a lot of them, and they are all getting replaced by A320s eventually at those other airlines (Saudia, China Eastern, China Northern, JAS, etc).

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,
Why would you park paid for DC-9s that have years of life left and a great track record to buy MD's and take on new debt? The -9's do a great job in the 100-125 seat cat--especially in markets under 1000 miles. From a pax perspective, they can't tell the difference as the interiors are quite nice.

Schwanker

 

[Noserider76]

GL,
Why would you park paid for DC-9s that have years of life left and a great track record to buy MD's and take on new debt? The -9's do a great job in the 100-125 seat cat--especially in markets under 1000 miles. From a pax perspective, they can't tell the difference as the interiors are quite nice.

Schwanker

That's one retirement needs to happen. The back does look great but the airplane, when I flew it, was one maintenance event to the next. Manual pressurization from DTW to PHL? Just another day at the office. It also has nowhere near the legs of an -88 and was often flown to the max resulting in a divert with any weather deviation. The -88 at DL are late 80's early 90's models and are far superior in every way to the 40 year old DC-9s.

 

[DTW320]

I agree that the MD-88's are superior, although the overheads on the NW -9's are much roomier and easier to stow the PurdyNeat than on DL. Also, you know that the -40's and -50's are nowhere near 40 years old. The DC9 also has the highest dispatch reliability record at NWA.

Besides, the whole point of the post was that the -9's are paid for. Are the -88's?

 

[clippyrip]

Everyone is so quick to call the end to the 9s. NWA may be parking a bunch of the smaller ones but the bulk of the 9 fleet is and will still be going for a while. They are paid for, that is the bottom line. Cheap cheap.

Relax with the "Henny Penny the sky is falling". If the two airlines merge and need to shed some weight, all they would have to do is slow/stop hiring. The retirements will take care of the rest. NWA is hiring all full pace right now and cannot meet the retirements. They are not even keeping pace with their deficit. Not to mention mergers do not happen overnight. Its not like they are going to announce a merger today and park the 9s tomorrow. RELAX.

Do I need to mention that nothing has been announced and that this is still speculation.....

 

[Noserider76]

I agree that the MD-88's are superior, although the overheads on the NW -9's are much roomier and easier to stow the PurdyNeat than on DL. Also, you know that the -40's and -50's are nowhere near 40 years old. The DC9 also has the highest dispatch reliability record at NWA.

Besides, the whole point of the post was that the -9's are paid for. Are the -88's?

There are 119 MD-88s and 16 MD-90s now. 63 MD-88s are owned and 56 are leased. All the MD-90s are owned. All are Cat III and have roughly 4 hours of range, and 142 seats or so (150 for the -90s).

I know the DC-9s are built like tanks and I would much rather see them than see their flying go away. I think you reach the point though where a cost-benefit would show leasing a more efficient, capable aircraft would be cost effective.

In the unlikely event of a merger...I wouldn't be surprised to see a A-318 order. I actually heard one of our managers say that was the most atractive 100 seat aircraft available at the moment.

 

[NuGuy]

That's one retirement needs to happen. The back does look great but the airplane, when I flew it, was one maintenance event to the next. Manual pressurization from DTW to PHL? Just another day at the office. It also has nowhere near the legs of an -88 and was often flown to the max resulting in a divert with any weather deviation. The -88 at DL are late 80's early 90's models and are far superior in every way to the 40 year old DC-9s.

Wow, I don't know where you flew the -9, but after a couple thousand hours flying NWA's -9s, I can tell you they are probably the MOST reliable A/C I've flown in my career.

The overhaul given them in the 90's was WELL worth it, and did more than just spruce up the back. Lots of little things that caused MX issues were replaced with new, modern systems, including a solid state battery charger, digital fuel quanity systems, proximity sensor gear position indicators and a digital presurization system.

The NWA -9s simply run, period. When they DO need something, like a generator or starter, I've seen them swapped out in a jiff (try that on a 'bus), and you are on your way.

I will grant you that the range is limited, compared to the -88, but then again, you don't really need it from MSP to FAR or OMA.

But the -88 STILL has a JT8 and still pokes along at 0.76, and it still leaks like a Doug, so give it a rest.

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

Wow, I don't know where you flew the -9, but after a couple thousand hours flying NWA's -9s, I can tell you they are probably the MOST reliable A/C I've flown in my career.

DTW

I will grant you that the range is limited, compared to the -88, but then again, you don't really need it from MSP to FAR or OMA.

True, but the problem was the company insisted on flying them from DTW to MIA.

But the -88 STILL has a JT8 and still pokes along at 0.76, and it still leaks like a Doug, so give it a rest.

OK, I'll give it a rest. I'm no big MD-88 fan and they get a lot of crap from the pilots here at DL but having flown both the -9 and the -88, there's no comparison.

Nu

I will say there are some of the best people I've ever worked with at NWA and I think you'll find the same type of folks at DL. I hope if this merger is forced upon us, it works out well for all.

 

[catIIIc]

On balance sheet. Any new airplane has to be a "slam dunk" profit maker before they are going to put precious capital on the line.

The 787's are expensive.

So are ordering the most expensive 777's that Boeing offers with different engines (GE's VS. RR on the current 777ER's

 

[General Lee]

GL,
Why would you park paid for DC-9s that have years of life left and a great track record to buy MD's and take on new debt? The -9's do a great job in the 100-125 seat cat--especially in markets under 1000 miles. From a pax perspective, they can't tell the difference as the interiors are quite nice.

Schwanker

The MD90s are newer, only cost around $9 million each with engines, have IFE capability (ours have IFE), can carry more pax, and are fuel efficient. As far as what our future management would do, that is an option. If they want to keep the DC9s, then great. We just don't want to see a mass parking without a replacement. The MD90s are ready now too---whereas a new replacement from Boeing could take years.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I agree that the MD-88's are superior, although the overheads on the NW -9's are much roomier and easier to stow the PurdyNeat than on DL. Also, you know that the -40's and -50's are nowhere near 40 years old. The DC9 also has the highest dispatch reliability record at NWA.

Besides, the whole point of the post was that the -9's are paid for. Are the -88's?

The leases were reduced about $200,000 per month each to around $80,000 in BK. They can carry about 146 pax too.

Bye Bye--General Lee